dawei

Thanks for that, it is very interesting. It seems despite the buddhist influence mentioned through they still describe the micro-cosmic orbit (MCO) in the Taoist breathing method (not the buddhist method). The 'Gate of Ming' is 'Ming Men'. Some might say The Gate of "life" or "power" or "wisdom". Which is what Hui Ming means (intelligence or wisdom). So that is why HuiMing and MingMen both appear to be synonymous on the picture. There are ming men acupuncture points on the back and the front of the body. This seems to support the idea of the ming men as to it's energetic location is the space in the middle of the body inbetween the points. The ming men (with the dan tian) is seen as the body's main energy center. It also helps to see how acupuncture points are 'gateways' to energy. The leakage going downward is simply to imply 'life energy leaving the body'. So it is the loss of energy in general. I don't think it is meant to be a specific spot. But if one wants to know where do we tend to leak out the lower part it is the huiyin and the arse.

I am with you 100% on this. That it gives a sense of ritual [dance] is obvious to me. I might even say there is a sacrifice occurring Forest clearing? I guess the chainsaw was invented earlier than I thought

I would agree that ambition is the wrong word but the sentence is focused on the kind of diligence one has. I don't think Taoism is saying to lessen the kind of diligence one possesses in a task. I am not crazy about 'diligence' here but it's not my translation.

I think the two words 強 (to make an effort) and 志 (purpose and determination) are not tied together enough. The effort needs strength (of purpose). Volition just means one has a choice (a will); one has the power to choose but does not mean that the actual choice itself has any power behind it. I think the latter idea is what is meant to be conveyed. Compare these three: Chan - He who acts with vigour has will. English/Feng - Perseverance is a sign of willpower. Legge - he who goes on acting with energy has a (firm) will. All three use "will" which is similar to volition but the last two see that the 'will' is being described here as having some sort of strength behind it. So the last two translations are much better since the strength of the 'will' is better understood in the line.

How does it read to you: Which is indestructible? The "one who can" or the "good foundation" ? When I read it, it reads as the "one who can is indestructible" which I think should be the latter instead.

Your wu-wei because you said so? Is that wu-wei to do? Except I have never made any claim concerning my ability with the chinese language. But I'll make one: I really know nothing about it.

I disagreed with translating IN ENGLISH as "Taoist" (apple) because it is not what the classic text means (apple). Yet you still pushed the issue after i disagreed with saying again: 道: Tao 者: -ist; -er 道 + 者 = Tao + ist = Taoist (orange) Yet now you agree with this point; (that your translating apples into oranges) If it is not what was said/meant in the classic text, I personally would not be inclined to say it in English; that makes no sense to me. That has been my point all along and why I gave ample examples as to why I think your translation as "Taoist" is using the wrong word. I am for keeping apples as apples and oranges as oranges; from classic text to modern translation. Ergo, That's a good receipt for being cultish; only follow what a group has decided is the correct way without having your own thought. No thanks. I'll keep my freedom to think for myself. I am sure I will disagree with them since like many modern chinese handling of the past, they want to take the spiritual or mystical completely out. They did it largely with Chinese medicine and do that with ancient texts like Lao Zi. Then they end up with too much Wang Bi'ism in the translation. That is not my interest at all. I disagree with most of your lines and certain work usage makes no sense. But you can see how much trouble it is to get you to see one word in one line. I am just not interested in explaining all the bad english usage.

No need for a resume... your grammatically clueless translations precede your english You can stop trying to win anyone over with 20 years 'keyboard experience'... BTW: Nobody says it that way... hint hint. You prove my point easy enough. Your using a version nobody else really uses... so you bring up the very point I want to ask: Why are you running us around in circles to force something to fit ?????? I showed almost a dozen translations of the most respected versions without one case of "Taoist"; yet you want to push and force it down our throats as the proper translation. Is that your keyboard you cannot control your fingers on? Please go on as you wish... but your not fooling anybody with your games to push your native translators here who use some secret and corrected version. Stick to whatever translation you want. Accept that 1,000 translations disagree. And drop the whole logic and legitimate plea... your saying it Ad nauseum. It's getting quite pathetic to repeat it over and over again. Stop the rhetoric games.

good point. It is better to see the interconnection then just the separation. The sound can have pitch or even attach a color or other association, and travel throughout the organ system as we want. It is marvelous in the end. This ties back to the original post point I wanted to make; it connects all things; the XIN; center of being.

The Throat is the 5th chakra associated to vibrational sound... but it does supply energy to the lungs. Breathing is associated to the lungs but one can breath into any of the dan tians; in fact, through any part of the body.

Good point. Both the Heart (4th) and Solar plexus (3rd chakra) is associated to the MDT; In Medical Qigong sometimes called the Yellow Court (the place of unprocessed emotions). The solar plexus energetic element is fire. It includes the adrenals, pancreas, spleen and liver. When it opens you will feel rage, anger, fear, etc. This is the external world. The heart relates to wind. It includes lungs and thymus. When open there is pain on the chest. This is the internal world. If you refer to the center as the MDT, then the heart is primary: then lungs and then thymus. In this model, the heart is associated to fire (arising from the kidneys). So, the Chakras (Indian) and the Dan Tian (Chinese) do not completely reconcile 100% at times; just as TCM and Medical Qigong do not. Just need to know the discrepancies and how to resolve them.

Did you ever feel the heart and the mind are not two distinct things? And not even individually one distinct thing each? They are a part of something outside of yourself? In the Book of poetry, it said XIN was the center of being. For those who want it to remain physical, you can think of it as ONE joint item; but it is is not truly that. Just let go of it and see where it goes.

Those who follow the principle of water are "Waterist". If you get caught up in translating words like Lienshen... we get translations like this in english. I am hoping you see the stupidity of this.

Yes, the hundreds of sinologist and translators and people who devoted their lives to ancient text are not familiar with the language in the end. Thanks for clarifying that you are the Highlander; There can only be one, after all. IMO, The oldest text had 'master'. I am quite satisfied to see ancient master rendered. When Laozi says it that way, we can know what he was a master of without having to say too much. That is his logic and way. I'll personally follow that.

I am not trying to be hard on you but the pretense as you share here: "I just didn't expect..." Life falls short of expectations; even with those lamas', priests, daoists, etc. I would try to learn to understand why it happens and then you will learn to accept all human 'ways' more. It is just a manifestation of their 'way'. Not what you or I would do; not what we would hope they would do; but we can come to understand that it is what it is.

Even a Zen experience has something to teach us all

I generally agree with this. I know we didn't have this issue until several chapters ago as others wanted to make some specific point in translation but I think it belongs together with the chapters discussed; That was our original idea. Thanks for your time to oversee this.

I am not sure what you seek: A utopia of perfect beings? I hate to be the one to tell you, but you were born into the wrong race. Even The Great Way (Dao) would tell you this: Life arises in variation; as soon as we label it, there is good and bad; pretty and ugly; perfection and corruption. IT EXISTS because IT ARISES. Don't you ever see that among nature? What is it you really want in this life? This kind of denouncement of "money, sex, drugs" makes me smile... welcome to life. Learn to navigate your path.

First off... your using a variation I would not personally follow. The Guodian, Heshang Gong and Wang Bi use this line: 古之善为士者 English/Feng translate as: The ancient masters Chan: Of old those who were the best rulers Suzuki and Carus: Those of yore who have succeeded in becoming masters Lau: Of old he who was well versed in the way Yutang: The wise ones of old --- Second... if I were to use the Mawangdui, as Hendricks does translate, which uses Dao: 古之善為道者. Legge: The skilful masters (of the Tao) in old times, Wu: THE ancient adepts of the Tao Tao-Kao: In old times the perfect man of Tao Zhengkun: Those ancients who were well versed in the Tao Duyvendak: In olden times those skilful in the Way --- None of this second group of scholars, sinologist, and translators say "Taoist". Because it is NOT what Laozi would of said. The idea of an school of 'ist' was not a concept in that time; so I personally would not translate it as 'Taoist'. Taoist has a very specific meaning today, which the first line is not suggesting, IMO. I don't agree with most every line you translate into english. If the first line is not right; and I don't have time to explain the rest. I am sure you understand this in chinese; it's the english which seems to be a problem. It may be close but it's still lacking line by line, IMO. You can look at the most common translators who spent a lifetime translating to see the difference in a single line. I don't need to be the one to explain it when hundreds of translations are free to read as a check against the english.

Is it anachronistic to say "those who practiced to be Taoist"?

I agree, since the Confucians can ignore the negative or ignorance as well. He is speaking a deeper meaning than knowledge alone let's your rationalize. Rationalizing is Confucianism at work; whether forward or reverse logic.

I think that last line is supposed to have a contrast to the previous two; whereas they lack, the last line is never lacking (never exhausted or used up). Saying "little is consumed" seems to look at the negative side of being used up. The positive side seems to be the point: It cannot be used up.

The character (得 - De) means: to get / to obtain / to acquire / to gain / to attain / to effect / to win / complacent / agreement / harmony / can / may / to be able to / Heshang Gong's manuscript had the character "to know" instead. If one obtains knowledge of something, it is 'to know it'. So in context, this "De" can mean to learn as well (if you obtained some teaching). I think there is something more experiential implied than the basic word 'to know'. Hinton has: Once you fathom the mother you know the children. And once you understand the child you abide in the mother. You can see he makes a transition of knowing the child to understanding the child, even though it is the same character 'to know'.

The only issues I have with this chapter is the opening. Although "beginning" is widely used, I like "origin or source". Also, the character for "mother" can also mean "source". So to me, this seems preferable. Here are examples: Hinton: There's a source all beneath heaven shares; call it the mother of all beneath heaven. Liao: Since the origin of the universe is the source of all things knowing the mother one also knows the son. Legge: (The Dao) which originated all under the sky is to be considered as the mother of them all. When the mother is found, we know what her children should be. ---- Han Fei, one of the very earliest to write on the Lao Zi, equated "mother" with Dao. As the mother is figurative, so is the reference "children". Wang Bi relates the mother as the "root" and the children as "stems and branches". ---- The next two lines are sometimes translated awkwardly but here is Legge: When the mother is found, we know what her children should be. When one knows that he is his mother's child, and proceeds to guard (the qualities of) the mother that belong to him, to the end of his life he will be free from all peril.