dawei

I agree it is more than just 'principle and power' but after 3 pages of being asked what is my definition of De, I thought I'd better keep it to a simpler idea. I like the use of "uncontrived" depending on where it is use. I cannot recall which translator I have seen use it. As to "Zi Ran", it is sometimes also translated as natural or naturalness. For an interesting write-up on Zi Ran and its relation to Wu Wei, see this by Wang: http://www.confuchina.com/05%20zongjiao/Lao%20Zi's%20Concept%20of%20Zi%20Ran.htm

I follow you point. I just don't like using "virtue of Taoism" since I will think Religious Taoism. But I think you do distinguish it from Confucian virtues well enough. It's like Confucian virtues come from within while Taoist virtues come from with-out (from the source). The problem is that 'virtue' is not the same in both cases but if you use the word in say a translation, you can guess which one most will think. Another problem that is hard to avoid is the meaning of the term 'Taoist'. That will also evoke a more religious connotation and thus 'virtue' as implying ethics or morality. I have found that some who hold to the original Laozi idea of "De" as power/efficacy do not think of themselves as 'Taoist' since the name is misleading most others.

You also mentioned the idea of "Taoist Virtues" in your next post. I don't think Taoist Virtues are the De that Lao Zi meant. But they say it is. Taoist virtues arose when Confucianism and Religious mindedness were mixed in. The earliest manuscript (Guodian) was found to not have the chapter usually used in support of The Three Great Taoist Treasures or Virtues (Chapter 67). Also the Guodian showed that Daoist text and Confucius texts were not as antagonist to each other as we see later. So clearly they were mixing early on. I still think Laozi's pure idea of De is: Power/Capacity/Efficacy/Virtuosity; not sentimental or ethical or moral. These are the words I have been using and I think Rene tends to agree. That's the definition on the table and lost in two pages of posting De of Tao: I see that as the Power/Capacity/Efficacy/Virtuosity of Dao. Here is how I often describe it: Dao is like a principle or rule (think law of gravity). The principle itself is nothing; and has not power to do anything. Once matter exists there seems to be some influence or power they have over one another. This is the principle taking effect(De). When the ten thousand arose (through the principle and power), we see all their activity in turn has an effect on everything else (principle and power). Tao of De: This is to say, "The Way of De". That is to say: How does De have it's power or capacity? It follows the principle (Dao). There is a saying: "The Way of Life is Zi Ran". Maybe we can say, The Way of De is Zi Ran too. Maybe "principle and power" are too simplistic but that is how I see it. Yes, yours is a legitimate question and the reason for the thread was to try and see if there is a LaoZi meaning to "De" which is NOT what Confucius meant (or religious Daoism follows). I think the latter folks use "De" to mean virtue as in 'goody-two-shoes' and appeal to Chapter 67, but I think that is morphing it's original meaning.

If anyone has seen Mantak Chia and Tao Huang's "The Secret Teachings of the Tao Te Ching" they put the Heart Character (心) on the front cover. http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-Tao-Te-Ching/dp/0892811919 Althought it is Tao Huang's English translation of the Tao Te Ching from the original Chinese Mawangdui; so Hendricks has competition now In TCM, the Heart is the "Supreme Controller"; it heals all things. My Qigong master often says the Heart Qi is very powerful (for this same reason). Sometimes in practice he will say, "bring in heart Qi". I once asked him how he recovers from expending too much Qi; He said, "I eat". I said what if you really need to get a pick me up. He said, "I breath". I asked how. He took his hands and formed a diamond shape with the index fingers and thumbs and placed his hands over his energetic heart area. The heart is considered where the Shen is housed too. So there is good reason to emphasis the heart, particularly if we are talking about the power or efficacy of the heart (which is assigned the attribute of Establishing Order) rather than just it's emotional aspects (which may imply more being virtuous).

This TYSS section (in bundle C) is the same as in DDJ Chapter 25 (in bundle A). In fact, this query about names and designations was so popular you find it also in Confucian texts as well (rectification of names; Spring and Autumn Annuls). You leave out the lines preceding this section so lose the context that this was pointing out. Just as we call soil "earth" and air "heaven", Dao is the designation... I don't see the connection to 48, although there are many connections to many other chapters, almost word for word.

[為]學者日益 為道者日損 I am probably getting too picky over the first two lines but they follow a pattern of: First characters - same (some action taking place); although missing from the Guodian, as Hendricks says, parallelism demands it. I agree. Second characters: Opposite (precept vs natural) Third characters: same (those who, of line 2) Fourth character: same (day) Fifth Characters: Opposite (benefit vs harm) SO introducing "Sun" makes no sense, although permission. Also, the last character is possibly treated as a compound with 'daily'. The first one meaning "day by day" to imply continuity. The second would then mean discontinuity; a break (in days). First is some action: Second and third go together Fourth and fith go together I see no question at all in the lines.

A big fucking DUH...

The thread is "Laozi's DE". Laozi's meaning of "De". You can feel free to define "virtue" but it is likely to be "Confucian" idea of virtue, not Laozi's idea. We are trying to fully develop or discuss how Laozi has a completely different meaning than Confucius ethical or moral virtue. IT IS NOT ABOUT VIRTUE; IT IS ABOUT "DE"

Maybe this is a bad analogy. Have you ever coached a team or directed others in a path which you are highly trained but others are not? You show them a prescribed path; sometimes of many steps; but once the awakening occurs, they realize that all the steps are... [fill in the enlightenment blank]

I will give the chinese in case those who are involved in martial arts want to share something concerning its meaning from their perspective. It is full of important terms: 精武艺 Jing Wu Yi Essence/Vitality Martial Skill Master Martial Skills 重武德 Zhong Wu De Serious Martial Virtue Value Martial Ethics 扬武魂 Yang Wu Hun Hoist Martial Spirit Develop Martial Spirit

Yes, I agree this was the shame of it all. The problem with using "Virtue" is that it is inescapable to not associate it to ethical value systems like Confucius meant. There are a few times that it seems better to not even translate the chinese word and the title is probably at the top of the list. It is clearly a case of people wanting to systematize the writings over a long period of time. First they are in 3 bundles (not good enough). Then in 2 sections (still not good enough). Then reverse the order of the sections (still not good enough). Then merge, contort, and vulgarize the meaning... downplay the mystical or spiritual... Ok, we're all done

From the other thread... sorry I had missed this as I used to read a lot of Zen and the earliest masters were my favorites. The short answer to your query is: "dhyana" was originally transliterated as chan na (禪那); shortened to chan (禪). As Walker correctly points out: The character refered to in the quoted passage is almost surely 忏, which when combined with the character 悔 (hui) becomes the word 忏悔, which in Chinese Buddhist and Daoist circles refers to a practice somewhat akin to "confession." So the section you quote mentions Ch'an but this is NOT Zen nor the word for Dhyana; it is the first character of Repentence. He called this the "formless Ch'an Hui (忏悔). Dhyana is like a system, and although often referred to as meaning meditation, it was also said to have four dhyanas to go through. It was combined with other practices and at times so thus also considered a practice (like Dharana-concentration and Samadhi-unity). The essence of HuiNeng was a continuation of Bodhidharma's idea of the first principle: "A special transmission outside scriptures, not founded on words or letters" When a master was once asked to explain this, he said: "If words could tell you then it would be the second principle"... enuf said here...

Sure. There are so many variations you can find used by authors: The Way of Virtue (Byrne) The Way and its Power (Waley) The Wisdom of Lao Zi (Yutang) The Way of Lao Zi (Chan) The Way of Life (Blakney) The Book of Tao and Teh (Zhengkun) The Book of the Way (Roberts) The Book of the Way and Virtue (Palden) The Classic of the Way and Virtue (Lynn) Some don't translate but leave it as: Dao De Jing / Tao Te Ching / etc. The earliest manuscript (Guodian) was in three bundles; The next oldest (Mawangdui) was in two versions but both have De first, then Dao. This was reversed by the Han dynasty to Dao De. But sometimes still separate as "Dao Jing" and "De Jing". It appears to be first referenced simply as the "Lao Zi" or the "Lao [old] manuscript" (Lao Jing).

It should be realized that the name order of "Dao De [Jing]" was named as early as the Han dynasty period; The status as a "Jing" (classic) is a little debated whether it was truly considered as such. But Emperor Jing and his mother (and the precessor Emperor Wen) are of often considered as the court turning towards holding the writing as higher than Confucius. But the combined 'Dao De' as ethics (or morality) was solidified into culture and consciousness.

Here is some of the text, as I see it: What I would like to convey is that it is not that people honor and value Dao and De; it is an intrinsic aspect of the ten thousand to radiate that back, like an endowed, attractive power. It comes with life and returns to its source. When the sun shines on us, our bodies vibrate a response back. I see this as not of our own doing but the natural operation (zi ran). This power (De) to do this has its source in the life principle (Dao); the connection or gateway is Xuan. 道生之 - Dao is the life principle 德畜之 – De is the nourishing power 物形之 – Matter is the appearing form 勢成之 – Circumstance is the completing influence 是以萬物 – Therefore among all things [appearance and circumstance] 莫 不 尊 道 – there is none not [returning that] honor [to] Dao [as the life principle] 而 貴 德 – and value [to] De [as the nourishing power] 道 之 尊 – The honor [from/to] Dao [as the life principle] 德 之 貴 – The value [from/to] De [as the nourishing power] 夫 莫 之 命 – Is Not from [divine] decree 而 常 自 然 – but from the natural operation and arising of life. The next four lines are exactly repeated in Chapter 10 as an ending too. The final line going as: “This is called XUAN DE” I see this as “The Power of ONE [connection]” Chapter 10 talks of the unity of the spirit and soul and how one keeps that like a newborn maintains their Qi; ergo, their connection to the universal. Chapter 51 is saying the same thing from a different perspective; but showing the connection is due to the operation of Dao and De; held together by Xuan De. Zhuangzi On Honor: What is it that we call the Dao? There is the Dao, or Way of Heaven; and there is the Dao, or Way of Man. Doing nothing and yet attracting all honour is the Way of Heaven; Doing and being embarrassed thereby is the Way of Man. It is the Way of Heaven that plays the part of the Lord; it is the Way of Man that plays the part of the Servant. The Way of Heaven and the Way of Man are far apart. They should be clearly distinguished from each other. On Value: What the world thinks the most valuable exhibition of the Dao is to be found in books. But books are only a collection of words. Words have what is valuable in them - what is valuable in words is the ideas they convey. But those ideas are a sequence of something else - and what that something else is cannot be conveyed by words. When the world, because of the value which it attaches to words, commits them to books, that for which it so values them may not deserve to be valued - because that which it values is not what is really valuable. Thus it is that what we look at and can see is (only) the outward form and colour, and what we listen to and can hear is (only) names and sounds. Alas! that men of the world should think that form and colour, name and sound, should be sufficient to give them the real nature of the Dao. The form and colour, the name and sound, are certainly not sufficient to convey its real nature

I can't buy it... When we get so pendantic trying to resolve a single [grammatical] word, we lose all the meaning in the whole. And we lose all english sense as well. I'll post my idea.

I think they are 'both/and', not 'either/or' in regards to religious and alchemy. My personal opinion is that prior to Laozi (and around his time), alchemy was more spiritual but in modern times we call it more religious. I don't know much about the specific lineage but there appears to be a discussion already on TB which you can read: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16068-associates-complete-reality/ This is basic Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM); it is not necessary to be practicing alchemy or qigong to gain (or lose) the benefit of this; Confucians can follow this prescription or anyone else. I found the original of your line, you can see the third character is Qi, but notice it is together as 'shou qi' which is synonymous with "anger" which is the emotion of the Liver: Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen 肝受氣於心，傳之於脾，氣舍於腎，至肺而死． gan shou qi yu xin， chuan zhi yu pi， qi she yu shen， zhi fei er si. "When the liver receives the life-giving force [shou qi] from the heart, it is from there transmitted to the spleen, whence it is passed on to the kidneys; here it reaches it utmost, so that it meets death when it arrives at the lungs." Based on the passage, it is describing the path of 'anger' stirred in the heart and arising in the Liver; passed to the spleen then kidneys and lungs eventually resulting in death. If one traces this on the 5 element cycle, it is following the "Draining Cycle" and then switches to the "Destructive Cycle"; clearly not following the healthy "Constructive Cycle". http://www.earthbalance-interiors.com/free-feng-shui-tips/5-elements-feng-shui/ Ultimately the emotions will affect the Shen: http://www.fivespirits.com/shen.php

My observation is those in more religious daoism inclinations use being virtuous to develop shen; but those in alchemy or medical qigong talk to increase Shen and De increases. I think they are interconnected so expect that both directions are really needed. Maybe this: "During the Winter, if one lives improperly, giving into impulsive desires and emotions such as anger and irritability, the spirit becomes restless, causing the yang qi to disperse at the surface. At this point the yang qi can no longer control the openings of the body. The result will be an outpouring of the qi, and subsequent vulnerability to invasions." "In the Summer, if too much sweating occurs in the heat, the qi will escape, the breath will become course and rapid, and one will feel irritable. This happens when heat attacks the exterior. If Summer heat attacks and enters the interior, it will affect the mind and spirit, causing confusion, mumbling and fever. For relief, the pores must be opened to release the heat."

Yes... on the surface. Here is why he substitutes "vital energy" for "De"... this is my opinion: If you compare Chapter 10 to this chapter, you will see many similar phrases used: 1. The last four lines in both chapters are character for character the same. The last line in both goes: "This is called XUAN DE". 2. Just before that, what chapter 10 says in one line, chapter 51 expounds in four lines, but it's the same meaning. 3. Although chapter 10 does not explicitly say that it is Dao or De doing the phrases, chapter 51 did explicitly state it for those same phrases. Ergo, one can substitute it in. 4. In Chapter 10 is Qi as a character and some translate as "Vital Force" (Yutang) acting on a newborn. Chapter 51 uses words like "gives birth", "nurtures" , "feeds"; all pictures of care for a newborn. It is easy to see all the parallel and that Chapter 51 discussion of Dao and De is equivalent to the Chapter 10 discussion of Qi. Ergo, "vital energy" (or vital force) is what encourages the internal action (chapter 10) of Dao and De (chapter 51) in mankind.

Yes, interesting. While there was an interesting discussion on Shen I don't mind seeing the possible connections like you mention. member On The Path shared a translation by Master Flowing Hands. I found his Chapter 6 interesting: CHAPTER 6 The root of Heaven and Earth, can be found in its spirit. Search and feel this spirit, for it is ever present; the gateway to all mysteries. The spirit is the primordial mother of the ten thousand things. It is ever present and eternal. He forgoes the normal "Valley Spirit" translation to show that there is a spirit to Heaven and Earth, which is the 'primordial mother' of all, 'present and eternal' (ie: passes across the realms); He also mentions "Xuan" as the gateway too all mysteries. all similar to what I postulate. I think there are many chapters which reveal these meanings if we will be open to the potential idea presented.

I know some don't like Chia, but this is worth a read: Stopping the monkey mind http://innerself.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5974

I thought to comment more on my idea of Connecting the Realms since it is not often talked about, particularly since it starts to get outside of just philosophical discussions to more metaphysical and mystical/spiritual levels. But I am personally convinced that Lao Zi comes out of the tail end of that phase; Daoism was first Shamanistic and alchemy/mystical/spiritual before it was philosophical; only later did this all blend to result in Religious ways. I see the three realms as: Earth, Heaven, Spirit Yes, not with Man as the third one since he is a part of earth. This has the advantage of showing associations and the influence as a hierarchy: Earth - physical (man) Heaven - vibrational (energy) Spirit - spiritual (ONEness) Some things cross over between these realms. I have stated here on TB that my personal opinion is that Dao is NOT the ONE. Dao is that part of the ONE which bestows the way things work in the manifest world. I see De as that part which is the empowerment; the efficacy. Xuan is the gate or passageway linking all of them. Thus, I said "Xuan De" is "The Power of ONEness". It reaches all realms because of the intrinsic link or gateway, Xuan. Before I said there is a saying: "Xuan is the color of heaven and Yellow the color of earth". For earth, think the Yellow Emperor: That color was due to his contributions to agriculture and it became the Imperial color. Xuan is red-black and sometimes mentioned as the 'unity' of dark and light (also think how a black surface of water reflects light). So Xuan unifies the realms whereas De is the power/capacity/efficacy carried out over and into those realms. Dao provides the guiding principle. In the manifested world, we see principled by Zi Ran / Wu Wei. Through De, mankind has this principled power/capacity/efficacy. The question may arise: What gets or goes into the spiritual realm? I've never been there so I can only tell you what I feel. Others may have closer experience. My feeling is that this is where "Shen" (spirit) plays the biggest role, which there was a general forum thread on Shen. Hun and Po are the soul aspect which also play a role. Where is "Wu" in all this? Wang Bi said it was the original reality ('you' just the functional state we experience). That might make it the 'gatekeeper' between the insubstantial and substantial. I think it is probably some aspect of the transforming spirit which makes the manifest [of heaven and earth] possible. The problem I have with following some of Wang Bi's explanation is that he wants all the mystic or spiritual out of the Lao Zi. It's the same thing that modern Traditional Chinese Medicine did by trying to get rid of the spiritual realm. The modern movement has been to sanitize the ancient text to rid them of their past alchemy/mystic/shaman way. At least alchemy/Shaman Qigong, Neigong and Shengong, and Medical Qigong have maintained these levels.

When possible, I personally opt to try and quiet the Monkey Mind and let the Gut interact with the incoming signals as much as possible. Get rid of [too much] thinking. Intuition is housed in the subconscious, however that really works I don't know but the signals are responded to differently, IMO. I think the point of "doing" is that the chinese see this as the main issue; not thinking. It is not what are you thinking about; that is irrelevant since it produces no action. What you do does not require to ask about thinking since the thought has given way to action and one sees the result. I think what we find in the west if a delay and sometimes a separation of functions which the classical way did not.

It reads like Celestial Masters lineage, starting with the Xiang'er commentary on the Lao Zi (about 200 AD). This Flowing Hands translation sees the Sage as the Shaman master; one who intercedes between Earth and Heaven in regards to evil. It also brings in the idea of the Will of Heaven in a Confucian Way. There is a well known saying: 天道酬勤 - Tian Dao Chou Qin. Idiom: Heaven rewards the diligent. You can google this phrase as an image and see many calligraphy examples. It is interesting that the shift away from Shamanistic Ways, just prior to Lao Zi, expected each person to 'become the shaman' in a sense. Maybe in the way Buddhism says, "Buddha is in everyone". Anyways, I want to read this guys translation more.

Thanks for sharing this info. I searched and found a direct download of his translation here, for those interested: http://www.life-in-crisis.info/dao-de-jhing.pdf