dawei

Yes, I do agree with this... I might say there is brain activity (whether it is truly thinking or processing or running the hamster wheel!)... and funny thing about the dreams; I have the same thing occur. Are you familiar with Halosync? Whenever I listen to those tapes over time, my dreams kick in very vividly. You can google it.

I am not exactly sure what I even meant by the 'missing link'; it put it in quotes as if to suggest it is not really missing; it is intrinsically there but we may not know it. We may not know it because we are approaching 'De' from a Confucius point of view. The Confucians can look too. But I like RV's succinct point. I feel 'to see' does not really originate from man but from the source of the realms; that was my point. Confucius was asked if those without the "Way" should be killed so those with the "Way" can grow more. He responded that this was not how to govern; if one desires good then the people will follow suit. He compared the high man's "De" to the wind and the low man's "De" to the grass; the wind will surely bend the grass to it's direction. This is a kind of power but of moral dimension brought. He shows that for him, "De" is to become a stronger force and then harness and used to it's advantage and full effect. Lao Zi's "De" manifests more easily from a state of Zi Ran and Wu Wei, just as the rest of the ten thousand things. Thus, it is not so much what one strives for but one finds it has a power and protective nature. It is not just human or physical, it is universal and returns to the universal. Xuan De is often stated as "hidden", "mysterious", or "dark" virtue/power. I don't see it that way; this was a later Confucian idea out of the XuanXue, Dark Learning school sometimes called Neo-Daoism. It was a time when Confucians sought to understand how to conflate their ideas with Daoism. A major proponent of this school of thought was Wang Bi; a Confucian who wrote the most popular commentary to the Lao Zi; His version is the one used around the world. Even in Chapter 1 we see Xuan as a kind of gate between the states of Wu and You; both seem to have their emergence or have their source in this. Xuan De is used four times and three times it explains the previous sections and says "This is called Xuan De" (Ch. 10, 51, 65). One translator calls the "Mystic Inner Power". I would maybe call it "The Power of Oneness". This is about as close as I can come to explain my meaning of being that which is between (and joins or links) the realms.

We may only be differing in our words or explanation but I thought to write some more Not sure that I agree there needs to be 'thinking' going on in the subconscious either. Meaning, any kind of thinking is preventing action; thus, any delay means there is some sort of internal interference to action (or simply 'doing', as I usually prefer to say). We can be stuck in a sort of Confucian mode, conscious or subconsciously. I think we can be aware of what is going on but it may not be necessary on some level. Meaning, have you ever done something and not know the reason, but maybe later saw that that was the best course? You were just doing in the moment without stopping to analyze or needing to be thinking or aware. There is that phrase of 'sitting and forgetting' and another 'forgetting about forgetting'. Then there is just 'doing'. Anyways, just conscious thoughts

To be frank, I think "De" is the 'missing link' between heaven and earth. 'De' is the power to transcend the realms. It was said that 'Xuan' was Heaven as 'yellow' was earth. SO what is 'Xuan De' ? A heavenly [sent] power to transcend the realms? Did I lose you at this point???

I would suggest you send the follow text to your lover/wife/husband, without any explanation: What is their simple response to a simple question: "Do you want next life together?"

It is sociopathy. He has followed a 'way' which results an excessive aberration or departure. His 'way' is defined as such and sees no needed correction. This is an established pattern of the brain now. It is very hard to know that the brain has a deviate behavior since the body will simply follow it. In Fact: this describes all of us. He is no different than most here pursuing their 'way', which their brain has also accepted. There is a re-start of the brain to drop all of this and escape this way... but you have to actually realize this... and know this escape exists... good luck.

Thanks Rene, so I should continue some idea of Lao Zi "De", whether anyone agrees or not. Confucius believed in Dao and De; His understand of the Way and Ethic was that of common folks raising to Jun Zi; the most excellent gentleman; a man of exuding ethics! which others would follow as his example. This is the high road. Lao Zi believed in Dao and De; His understanding of the Way and Power was without regard to anyone needing to follow him; it was in regard to it's source alone (Dao and De). This is the ultimate principle of "returning to the source". As the Sage arises and returns [like natural life of plants or trees], so others see the Sage exemplifies natural life. De is not affecting only people (Confucian) but all life (Lao Zi). In this way, life possesses De in order to naturally return to Dao. This is life and death.

Maybe this is where we differ. "What we think"? If it is about 'thinking', then it is not Lao Zi. Once "doing", it is about life (ie: Lao Zi). Decrease thinking to the point of emptiness is not just mystical; it is a reality. Empty, then you are able to do anything without direct-purpose; it is just "doing".

Sima Qian is an ancient historian we are all indebted to. He followed the Huang-Lao philosophy that Huainanzi was said to follow. His "School of Six" (Yin-Yang, Confucian, Mohist, Legalists, School of Names, and Daoists) had an final nod to the Daoist as taking all the best of the other schools. For this reason, such ideas are sometimes classified as a "miscellaneous" school. I seriously doubt Sima Qian had a specific comment on this chapter. But the interpretation of this chapter is said by Chan as "50/50". At least he is honest.

If we are talking the ancient chinese establishing as such, then I think what may be forgotten is that daoism is shamanistic and spiritual before transitioning to humanistic philosophy; So 'religion' (ie: bringing the human to the spiritual) was actually quite predictable......... in hindsight The Shaman WAS the intermediate; the intercessor for the group. I think what Lao Zi brilliantly did was to show that there is NO intercessor... well, no physical intercessor was needed. "De" IS the intercessor ! The physical existence does not do anything to establish the ability (intercessor capability); The physical is the manifestation reacting to the environment (this chapter speaks to this idea). Dao, as the guiding law, shows a way; De, as the power to effect the law (of gravity, of reactions, of interaction, of arising), results in an arising and flourishing of life. But the 'end game', rarely spoken of, is the 'returning' aspect. I will slightly (or greatly digress) here: If we do not let "what arises to return", then how can the 'power to effect' truly be harnessed? In other words: If the earth is the abode, the residence of De efficaciously creating the ONE through the guidance (Dao), then how can earth persist? My query maybe takes a dramatic humanitarian turn here; but if the earth is following Dao (chapter 25), then it requires all things to return to its soil. If we build a society which does not promote this, earth will one day just vanish... My idea here is not necessarily this chapter, but the entire book. But just food for thought.

At some point, the simple explanations are too simple (ie: silly). Yes, they are interchangeable, even when both words are used in a single sentence. (亡-wang , 無-wu). Ergo, they have some separate use even if translated the same. 亡，吾無道: No, I have no particular way. -- Tr. Legge, 田子方 - Tian Zi-fang (Zhuang Zi) but 亡 seems much more flexible in context: http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/tian-zi-fang?searchu=%E4%BA%A1&searchmode=showall#n2872 亡 as destroyed and destruction. -- Tr. Legge Meaning in Context rules... not grammar alone.

This kind of chapter bothers me in the sense that all the buzz words are here (Dao, De, Sheng, Xuan, Xuan De) but I don't see translations as getting it all out right. I don't see 'Dao Sheng' as Dao giving life or birth or producing anything; that makes Dao a thing too. Just as I don't see "gravity" and the "law of gravity" as one and the same. I see Dao as the law which the arising follows; the arising are as such because they undergo their own "dao'ing". This ability I see as the power or efficacy or virtuosity (De) of Dao. I don't see De as 'virtue' as it becomes too associated with ethical Confucian. Lao Zi "De" is not Confucian "De". Whereas Confucius takes a high [ethical] road (wei, action, as practice makes perfect and becomes useful), Lao Zi takes the low [mystical] road (wu wei as no thought-provoked action makes emptiness and becomes useful). I don't see Xuan as hidden, dark, mysterious or any other obscure idea, particularly when combined with De. This is yet another Confucian idea. Xuan is code for heaven. Even Heshang Gong saw De associated as to Oneness in it's function. Finally, to say that 'things' worship/honor/venerate Dao and do homage/honor De seems to go too far in the religious direction.

This all seems a very fair assessment. I went to his seminars (basic and advanced) some years ago to check it out. To this day, I don't use a single thing he taught but I would agree that for those uninitiated in qigong it is a gateway. And he does seem to want to be 'seminar successful'; that came across a little too much to me. I got to know one of the advanced instructors and mentioned that one problem is his lack of Qi deviation coverage. For teaching so many forms, he makes it out like it is trouble-free. Also, he does not explain the origin of some things or emphasize some stuff too much. He is quite proud of his nine-breath method. My Qigong master always laughs when I mention his name; he has worked on Jeff a few times. He always jokes about his nine breath method and asks why it takes him nine breaths when one good breath will do it, LOL. (Reminds me of the saying that the greatest chinese acupuncturist only uses one needle). Yes, probably young and naive and a little too seminar happy. But if it keeps the money rolling in, that is his right to pursue.

I see you use that comment now and again. By your own reckoning; chinese medicine, qigong, legalist, and Lao Zi are mystics. You actually speak more truth than you realize.

I completely agree that it was customary for numbers to be used as an example of 'some' or 'many'. If I choose to translate according to the possibility of a fractional meaning, I would probably say "some" since precision is not intended, IMO. What is the dating of your source? Even if approximate?

I don't think chinese links are going to really help anyone here understand the background. I won't attempt to read them. I have my own version of the Han Fei interpretation. Although I would not say that most people followed his interpretation. The origin of the nine orifices and four limbs (13) idea is in other writings. Han Fei: A person's body has three hundred and sixty sections, and the four extremities and the nine openings are its greatest implements. The four extremities and nine openings total thirteen. The movements of these thirteen all belong to life, and so can be called 'dependencies'. Huainanzi: The round shape of our head emulates heaven. The square shape of our feet emulates earth. Heaven has the four seasons, the five planetary movements, the nine divisions, and the 366 days. Human beings follow suit by having four limbs, five organ systems, nine orifices, and 366 joints. In heaven are wind and rain and cold and summer heat, while human temperament is distinguished by taking and giving and joy and anger. Our gallbladder, moreover, functions like clouds, the lung like mist, the liver like wind, the kidney like rain, and the spleen like thunder. All of these are manifestations of our union with heaven and earth. Huang Di Nei Jing (Yellow Emperor's Classic of medicine) The Yellow Emperor said: “Since ancient times the connection to heaven has been the foundation of all life. Yin and yang of heaven (moon and sun) are the original source of life. Everything that is situated between heaven and earth and enveloped by the six directions—the nine regions of the earth or the nine orifices of the human body, or the five organ systems, or the twelve major joints—is connected to the qi of heaven. The yin and yang of heaven engender the five evolutive phases on earth, which correspond to the three yin qi and the three yang qi of heaven. If we ignore this vital connection between heaven, earth, and human beings, we risk to be harmed by pathological influences. This is the main principle of health and longevity. Guan Zi Nei Ye (Inner Training of Guan Zi) The Dao fills the world and spreads through everywhere that people dwell, yet the people cannot understand it. Through the explanation of a single phrase one may penetrate to heaven, reach the limits of the earth, and coil through all the nine regions. . . . When the fountainhead never runs dry, the limbs are firm. When the wellspring is never exhausted, the nine bodily orifices are penetrating. Burial example: During the Zhou dynasty, jade was placed with the dead. During the Han, the nine orifices were plugged with Jade. Ancient food for the nine orifices: Eat black Lingzhi (fungus) Ancient Qi breathing: The Mawangdui breath-cultivation texts and parts of Yinshu, a manual of daoyin exercises excavated together with Maishu from the Zhangjiashan tomb site, are textual expansions of jade breathing technique: The way to breathe qi: it must reach to the extremities........Breathing must be deep and sustained. Fresh qi is easy to hold on to, qi that has been kept over night is ageing, fresh qi creates long life. The one who is good at putting the qi in order causes the qi that has been kept overnight to disperse during the night and fresh qi to collect in the morning by penetrating the nine orifices and filling the six cavities.

This is a curious line: Wu: And, when a living person moves into the Realm of Death, His companions are also thirteen. English/Feng: And men just passing from birth to death also number three in ten. Hendricks: In all of their actions move towards the thirteen that belong to the realm of death. Yutang: What send man to death in this life are also (these) thirteen. One variation I once read mentioned it as, the "thirteen deadly places"; meaning that these [13] companions of life are what contribute towards one's death. This agrees with Chapter 76 which uses "companions" of life and death. As softness gives way to hardness and weak gives way to strong, so life gives way to death.

Lin Yutang said the fraction "makes less sense". I tend to agree. We don't need fuzzy math here at account for any left-overs He translates as: Out of Life, Death enters. The companions (organs) of life are thirteen. The companions (organs) of death are (also) thirteen. What send man to death in this life are also (these) thirteen. Edited: I see that Yutang's translation was already shared. Read in conjunction with Chapter 76, one sees not three kinds of people but more like phases to life. The phrases "companions of life" , "companions of death" is used there as well.

I am not going to argue too strongly here since we will just be told it is wrong if it does not agree with certain modern, native translators. But to translate as a fraction is not well supported given how they usually specify a fraction in classical text; the construction is not the same. To say "3 out of 10" will leave a left-over of one, so that kind of translation is clumsy; 1/3 would be simple and obvious to say, if you ever graduated even fourth grade math. The earliest pre-han texts have mention of the nine orifices and four limbs (13); so life and death depend on these bodily accompaniments. The very first commentary on the Lao Zi mentions it in this way as well. The simple solution is to translate without any reference to actual numbers... duh...

You'll need to translate the Guodian since a single line needs it's place among the whole.

Yes, I agree and that was a good expansion on my inherent point; When the sage just lives, he expects nothing in return. This frees him from requiring or expecting or desiring. Life is lived on equal terms for all. All are a part of the manifold unfolding, so why treat them differently.

Have you read Peter Lynds papers? http://www.peterlynds.net.nz/papers.html

He (Sage) lives but expects nothing in return.

In the Guodian, there are five lines but a stop after four; and again at five; As well, the first line is not parallel to the next, although most translate it as such. And some characters are changed. Only Hendrick preserves ‘those’ which the original texts suggest. It seems most want some poetic explanation; or not translate at all. I tend to agree in some uses of “dao”, “de”, “wu wei”, but it lacks an ability to translate in the end: 1. Those that seek learning each day are those who generate an accumulation [of such learning] 2. Those that seek to follow the Way each day are those who experience a disappearance [of this way of life] 3. A gradual disappearance until all is completely gone. 4. And then one reaches [the point of] no thought-generated action. -- Guodian, End of Statement -- NEXT LINE IS NOT IN MAWANGUI (BOTH): 5. When nothing is thought-generated, what action is there left to do (...but more of the same practice) -- END of Guodian -- This is an explanation of spiritual and inner neidan of Lao Zi, which is found in many chapters if you translate as such.