dawei

Maybe I've watched too many movies... but the movie Hero depicts the hidden meaning of Tian Xia to it's full meaning: All [united] under Heaven. Of course at that time, it was those central states (ie: China). Tian Xia was explained as the 'Universe', ONE, but divided (states) causing suffering. Unless Tian Xia is united, the wars cannot stop; peace cannot prevail. In this way, the one who achieves to unite all was the one to achieve peace. Seems benevolent in the end.

Guodian Manuscript: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 罪莫厚乎甚欲， 6.咎莫惨乎欲得， 7. 化莫大乎不智（知）足。 8. 智（知）足之为足， 9. 此恒足矣 MWD-A: 1. 天下有道 2. □走馬以糞 3. 天下無道 4. 戎馬生於郊‧ 5. 罪莫大於可欲 6. 禍莫大於不知足 7. 咎莫憯於欲得 8. □□□□□ 9. □恆足矣 MWD-B: 1. □□□道 2. 卻走馬□糞 3. □□無道 4. 戎馬生於郊 5. 罪莫大可欲 6. 禍□□□□□ 7. □□□□□□ 8. □□□□□ 9. □□足矣 FuYi: 1. 天下有道， 2. 卻走馬以播。 3. 天下無道， 4. 戎馬生於郊。 5. 罪莫大於可欲， 6. 禍莫大於不知足, 7. 咎莫憯於欲得。 8. 故知足之足， 9. 常足矣 Heshang Gong: 1. 天下有道， 2. 卻走馬以播。 3. 天下無道， 4. 戎馬生於郊。 5. 罪莫大於可欲， 6. 禍莫大於不知足, 7. 咎莫大於欲得。 8. 故知足之足， 9. 常足〔矣〕 Wang Bi: 1. 天下有道， 2. 卻走馬以糞。 3. 天下無道， 4. 戎馬生於郊。 5. 6. 禍莫大於不知足。 7. 咎莫大於欲得。 8. 故知足之足 9. 常足矣 ALL manuscripts, except Wang Bi, have it as the first of three sayings. (It should be noted that Wang Bi follows the Heshang Gong more than any other manuscript). 5. 罪莫大於可欲， 6. 禍莫大於不知足, 7. 咎莫大於欲得。 The main reason that it belongs at position 5 is due to 可欲, which is saying is a high level way of ascribing the desire for objects or things. Then the next two lines are the specific examples expounding the point.

I am curious to the definition of "Original classic"? The line in red I inserted to show where the Guodian, Mawangdui, Fu Yi, Hesheng Gong and as Chan says in his commentary "51 other texts" have it mentioned. I don't mind someone to use whatever version they want, but I am not sure that calling it the "Original Classic" is proper. It is simply The Wang Bi version. Or maybe it is what your calling your "Received Version"?

I think this chapter calls for it if we are to make sense of the opening two lines and what follows. It is War (vs peace) that is directing the use of the horses; and it is the ruler who directs the War effort (or not), afterall. The latter lines can be applied to people but it only comes about because of what the ruler is doing. His example become the people's example. If he desires, the people will contend and desire.

Interesting that we are basically explaining the same thing at the same time. The only reason I don't go as far as defining it as benevolent (virtuous) vs tyrannous (not virtuous) is that on the one hand, it sounds too Confucian. Also, ALL the states and kingdoms are being pulled into this war and maybe some would rather not but cannot avoid it. I don't define (and judge) every state's action as tyrannous if they end up in war. For me, The non-judgmental Way is to say they are either following the Way or they are not. To call a ruler 'tryannous' or as such was often reserved for the most hated rulers and often the last ruler of a period/dynasty (after all, they "lost it all" at that point); like King Jie of Xia or King Xin of Shang who was given the nickname Zhou (紂), Tyrant. A reason I don't use "contentment" is that I see this as more like a bare sufficiency. It is War time after all and I doubt the kind of "contentment" we usually apply to the word is what is meant here. I personally side with the idea is 'just enough' or 'sufficiency' or 'adequacy'.

Thinking more about the first line, I don't emphasize what I think is the point; that this is the Warring States period and the modus operandi is War. IMO, the first line should convey this since it contains the word: 卻 - but / yet / however / while / to go back / to decline / to retreat / nevertheless / even though So I think that the line is trying to convey that the horses return from the borders to the farms when the Way prevails. Another item to consider is the use of "Tian Xia" (天下) which can mean, from the ruling point of view, to "unite the people". This was afterall the sought after goal of the Warring State Period; to be the last state standing and unite the people. another item: "You Dao" (有道) can also mean "good government prevails", particularly in light of the previous idea of Tian Xia; so, as Zhuangzi uses many times; "when good order prevails in the world/state/kingdom" -- Tr. Legge Given the picture of war in this chapter, an alternate opening might be: When the ruler follows the Way, there is good order in the state and the horses are rode back to the farms to manure the fields. When the ruler does not follow the Way, there is disorder in the state and the horses live closer to the border for military matters. When the ruler does not establish good order, the state goes to war and what slowly unfolds and result is "vice", pursing desires. What results in turn among the land is: 1. Misery: Not knowing what is enough (the state is not enough, desire to expand, conquer) 2. Covetousness: Desiring the possession of another kingdom and land (desire to unite the lands)

This is an interesting chapter for the various issues which surround it. The first two main sentences are not in the Guodian, and while in the Mawangdui they are set off by paragraph markers implying it was a separate section. So we see another early manuscript marked as two brought together as one in later manuscripts. I have never liked the conventional way of describing the horses as if they are two different horse (galloping horse vs war horses—Wu). This would make most sense to translate their functions (and not make it sounds like two kinds of horses). - Waysun Liao calls them “War Horses” in both lines to drive home this point. - Zhengkun has an interesting take by calling them “battle steeds" in the first line and the second line with “Even pregnant mares are taken over for war”. - Ni also mentions the “pregnant mares”. The 'Debates on salt and iron' of the first century B.C. includes a line that reads: “horses became insufficient, so even mares in foal were enlisted in the ranks, which resulted in Colts being born out on the battlefields." -- Tr. Sarkissian The horse symbolized vigor. Hex 26 and 59 have references to horses which one commentator saw as referring to the inner person and how to rescue their hearts. Heshang Gong took all this as a metaphor to turn one’s physical vigor (sperm) back to nourish (manure) the body, as part of inner alchemy. Wang Bi’s commentary has a phrase 修其内 which suggest to take care of (cultivate) your internal matters but since he is not wont to speak in alchemy ways, it may mean more like to take care of your inner desires and sufficiency.

I was just with my Qigong master (his background is in Medical Qigong and martial arts) and asked him about the Embryonic breathing. I knew he had meet Yang, Jwing-Ming before and had his book. He described it's goal as mostly for [martial] power and longevity; but being a 'downward' shen practice it is much more dangerous than the 'upward' shen development. He said the basic idea is to move the Shen downward into the Dan Tian to 'pack' the energy; once packed it MUST be then used by beginning to pack the legs and then even the ribs and arms; ergo, Iron Shirt. One must know when it is enough and also when to purge any excess out (the feet). He said the main problems people run into is that they over-pack the dan tian and don't move or use that energy to other areas enough; they are then over-charged in the dan tian which can lead to both physical and psychological disturbances. He demonstrated the difference to me by putting the back of his wrist against my stomach: 1. Push me with just muscle - I moved back a little 2. Push me with Qi - I moved back more forcefully like a very strong push 3. Push me with Shen + Qi - I felt like the wind was almost knocked out of me (he promised me that this was just a very gentle strike).

Two very good points: --- One example of Shen in Oracle Bones: Shen was thought of as ‘that which drops from heaven’ (a subtle spirit energy) which ‘passes through the body’; Thus it connects the heavenly with the earthly (in the above picture, note the heavenly swirl and earthly swirl; archetype for Yin and Yang Diagram- Tai Ji Tu, 太極圖). In ancient document Song of the Valley Spirit, Shen is called the “Real Great Dao”. In others, it is called the “Valley Spirit”. Like original Qi and Jing, there is original Shen (Yin) received during conception. Similarly, acquired post-natal (Yang) Shen is maintained through meditiation, practice, inner quiet and peace, and brings about harmony between health and Shen. It is housed in the heart (often called the supreme controller [of the body]) and when gathered in the upper dan tian it is projected out the eyes, third eye, crown, etc. Some documents said the Shen was housed in the brain but I think it’s better to think of it as housed [internally] in the heart and transported [externally] via the head. Ancient belief was that all illness is said to have a spiritual root. ( Modern chinese medicine has slowly push the idea of spiritual and Shen out of it’s explanation of the cause of illness.) High levels of Shen development account for psychic abilities and altered states of consciousness. One is said to have connected to (ie: can hear) the 10,000 voices (Wuji). Also, there is an extreme condition of the Shen called “Shenning out” which I have seen in a person. Very fast treatment is needed to the important Shen points. You can also look up The Five Shen energies associated to the Yin organs: http://taoism.about.com/od/thefiveelements/a/fiveshen.htm Here may be an easy way to see the considerations with Shen: -- Chinese Medical Qigong by Dr. J. Johnson Yang, Jwing-Ming has written extensively on Shen in The Root of Chinese Qigong, which I highly recommend. He describes the Five Regulations and also Shen Breathing and how to join it to the breath, mind and Qi. Instead of ‘converting’ Qi to Shen, which Mantak Chia writes a lot about, one will: Cultivate, Regulate, Coordinate/Unify/Harmonize. In the ancient text, the Qi is called the ‘mother’ and the Shen the ‘son’. (ergo, not really a concept of converting but nurturing). Jwing-Ming also wrote Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing which describes this breathing and Shen practice but it is not really well laid out step by step but if combined with the first book you get a better understanding (although some material is repeated). You may often hear someone say that Intention/mind leads the Qi (Yi leads Qi). This saying appears to originate with Mozi. It is actually better to see it as: Intention leads Shen; Shen leads Qi. But this short hand does not really do justice to the point which is more like: Regulate Intention (and emotion) and you regulate/calm Shen. Calm Shen combines with regulated breath and Qi for health and longevity. If mind or emotion is disturbed then Shen is disturbed, then Qi is disturbed.

Although his book is big, it is disjointed to say the least in terms of clearly explaining how to do the E.B. He says the first step is to regulate the Shen (one of five regulations). Did you master that? What exactly do you do as part of your practice? After your initial dan tian is warmed, what circulations and regulations are you doing? If your over-charging it, then your not regulating (and circulating) enough. He says to read all the translated works many times as they are like a road map; the problem is that he expects you to piece together the map. Ultimately, he says that Shen can be brought DOWN to the dan tian to join up with Qi and then they both can return to source. I would think there is some stress introduced by the stress on your energetic system. My opinion is not to engage under such advanced practices until you know you are doing all the regulations correctly and your not over-charged. I can't tell you how dangerous it all sounded to me when I first read the book. I personally would not attempt it without a proper and proven teacher of this practice. Maybe you could state your ultimate goal; what is it you hope to achieve and why you choose this method instead of more basic ones?

We have been studying and discussing for quite a while but now it's called presumptive analysis and a competition. We're also told non-natives can't understand it and a group of native scholars have change the text by consensus and we should be using that altered text. I don't see any discussion when sides are being drawn.

These lines describe the action of Dao; the opening already prepares one for that and therefore what's to follow. This is one of the most extensive chapter commentaries by Wang Bi. He apparently saw the relevance. He relates, as one example of a metaphor, that one joins with dust without one's nature being polluted. There are many applications to get from the understand that even "Dao mingles in the dust" [without any weakening-pollution-of it's efficacy].

I have the EXACT experience. I don't mention it leaving the crown since it seems to just do it without any of my own thought or intention; happens on it's own will. But I suspected it was due to the same reasons you mention. There are a few places I massage in the lower extremities as I often wake up in the mornings with my legs percolating Qi. About 5 minutes of breathing qi circulations usually clears it up. thanks for sharing that; nice to hear another has the same experience.

Good point. It's the old idea of "out with the old and in with the new". Use your 'imagine + intention + shen' to do this. Generally speaking, use sounds to break up/purge and color to tonify. You want to visualize what is being removed is what we all toxic or turbid qi. I think of it like detoxing; when detoxing it ultimately has to get carried out the body and that is why they say to drink tons of water; it will attach itself to the water and get out of your system. The same with qi; the negative, toxic, turbid energy stuck in muscles or parts of your body need to get out. Bring the qi to that area; break up the area; now push that qi out of the body. When one has a pain or a tight muscle or something it is helpful to 'put the mind there and breath into (in and out) of that place'. In this way, the qi is doing the same thing; to try and open up flow and carrying something out if needed. The muscle itself can be relaxed with the mind but it may need physical touch sometimes. Let the energy sink down and out the feet as a general rule. Which means the energy has to pass through that important waist area and through the thighs (if the issue is in the top half of the body). So this middle area is very important to be open and loose; think yoga and tai ji, where both emphasize this.

If I use this as an example of what I mentioned; In sex, most people think in terms of what they loose (essence), this is a purge. But you also need to see it in terms of what you gain from your partner (essence). So I am back to thinking in terms of the regulation idea. I am not suggesting that the act become a meditative or emotionless concentration; but I am suggesting that one can become as one who 'breaths in and out naturally' (ie: regulating the loose and gain) and this may even enhance the emotional aspect of it with the partner.

In the words of my Medical Qigong master/teacher: "It depends" In my mind, what the foundational issue is to keep these in check: 1. Purging (losing of qi; in terms of organs, it would be expelling toxic qi) 2. Tonifying (acquiring qi; in terms of organs, it would be acquiring qi) 3. Regulating (balance the two above) If you take an extreme tonifying practice (rigorously 3 hours a day) and no purging (100% abstinence all year), your regulation is probably off. I use this generic way of describing it to show that it is not the practice or abstinence themselves but whatever you choose to do in terms of tonifying vs purging needs to be regulated. Let's say someone does this vigorous tonifying build up; they need to figure out ways to purge (other than sex) to properly regulate themselves. So part of the rigorous practice could (should) include purging! Thus the practice itself is regulated. I agree with what was said earlier; it's generally not natural to abstain, but one should follow what their body says to do. For one person it may create less a desire for sex or for another maybe more. I think if one is doing a short term practice, like a '100 day microcosmic burn', then abstaining is probably recommended so you can get through it more smoothly and maybe even earlier. If you fill your stomach with meat and often have sex, that 100 days may not be as easy since your disturbing the quality of the qi during that time. It may then take a longer time. It's a valid question and I can only share my thoughts. I don't think there are hard and fast rules that cover everyone, since we are all different, but a person should understanding many of the issues raised in the thread and understand their body.

Done

Good luck convincing people here that while the Guodian (300 B.C) down to Wang Bi (230) had no problem with lines 8 and 9, modern scholars find a problem; the ancients understood the 'natural way', which is the point of the lines, one of natural regulation. Modern scholars start changing words since they cannot understand something, and that is the problem; understanding. Wang Bi wrote enough about this chapter to show he got it and never thought to change anything. These were not corrected by consensus but a few native scholars in modern times felt a word change was warranted. You can look at hundreds of translations and find almost no one follows this alteration. Let's at least be honest and open and not spread too much misinformation. The "Wang Bi" version is technically exactly what Wang Bi used himself. Anything else is an variation on the Wang Bi. The opening lines reflect that it is a 'sign' of greatness to seem/appear/look as if it were incomplete, empty, exhausted, crooked, clumsy, or blurting out. Why? When one follows the 'natural way', it looks to be lacking (doing nothing yet nothing is not done). Dao is empty yet always in use, etc. IMO, the reason lines 8-10 were included to this chapter [by the earliest scholars] is because it is saying essentially the same thing; it is a picture of Yin returning to Yang and Yang returning to Yin; the natural course and regulation of life is shown: 8. Movement/activity gives way to/overcomes/contravenes/turns to Coldness (think as you move around, you balance the coldness in your body) 9. Calmness gives way to/overcomes/contravenes/turns to Hotness (same idea with the body; when hot, a calm spirit will cool you off). 10. Such purity establishes order [of things]/regulates [according to the nature of things]/ in all under heaven. That is my take. Everyone is free to think for themselves.

The dan tian cannot be damaged per se, it is the energetic container. Organs though can be damaged. A removed organ can still have it's energetic container or can have it re-fashioned again. The issue (or question) should be, IMO: What kind of depletion do you experience from sex and how to replenish that? People vary, so there is not any rule for everyone but qigong is definitely a way to replenish (as is sex itself). But if you are depleted (through whatever means, including sex) and then try to do some vigorous qigong emission (more depletion), you may find yourself feeling quite weak (lacking the energy reserve). In Medical Qigong, we talk about "purge", "tonify", "regulate". if you follow purge with purge, your going to be weak; If you don't have the energy to do some practice, you need to "tonify". Qigong can tonify you. So can food. So can simple breathing. The idea of jing, chi, shen cultivation does not mean if you don't do one of them your out of balance. This is trying to make a general rule which is not thinking in the bigger picture, IMO. Most people do not do shen gong practices; so are they all out of balance? I would say no. I would recognize that there are three realms: Physical, energetic, spiritual. If they are only cultivating jing and qi, then I would simply say they are experiencing more of the physical and energetic realm. I would not say they are out of balance. If they purposely add in Shen practices and don't regulate it all well, then they may get out of balance.

ChiD Most straightness seems crooked, Most skillful seems inept. Most eloquence seems stuttered. Vs Wu The greatest straightness looks like crookedness. The greatest skill appears clumsy. The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering. 若 : to seem / similar to / like / as / if / suppose / supposing / assuming / provided that / A shape seems = looks like An action seems = appears A sound seems = sounds like How can a shape seem crooked? Because when you “look” at it, it “seems” crooked. IMO, your translations says the same thing.

Much has been made of lines 8 and 9, to alter them, but the arguments are too weak. Even Wing-tsit Chang discusses it in his commentary and points out a strong advocate is Chiang Hsi-ch’ang. I cannot think of a single author I frequently read which follows the alter variation. An interesting issue is that on the bamboo slips themselves is an ‘end marker’ AFTER line 7 and then at the very end; implying that lines 8 and onward are not a part of the previous section (lines 1-6). So this may be two sections on the bamboo which later editors put together as one chapter. Another support for this is, as Hendricks points out, that the original ending of 8,9,10 (and opening word of 10) essentially rhythm. So there is good reason for this as an unaltered unit. The only other line I will comment on is the last line since it also has two characters changed from the Guodian. Of note is that the Guodian starts off with the same character (pure or clear) repeated but later manuscripts changed the second character to more like ‘stillness or calmness’. The original opening is “clear-clear or pure-pure”; ergo, ‘clarity or purity’. Also the last character was changed: 定 - to set / to fix / to determine / to decide / to order 正 - just (right) / main / upright / straight / correct / positive / greater than zero / principle Line 10 compared: 清清可以为天下定 清靜------為天下正 It is interesting to note that those who translate with "order" or "ruler" are actually breaking from their Wang Bi translation to let the original Goudian meaning be used. A number of translators end with the idea like Hendricks: a 'guide' (Yutang) or 'ruler' (Chan) or 'govern' (Hinton) or 'leader' (Zhengkun). The ending of Wu with "norm" just seems out of place; it is not the norm of the world, universe, or people to be of stillness or purity. The original makes more structural sense and many actually follow it's basic meaning despite the Wang Bi version they start with.

This chapter is one where the Guodian manuscript exists so we can also know what was written prior to the older version used by Hendricks. But there appears are so many issues in this chapter and it starts with the first sentence (first two lines of those shown above). The Guodian ends the first line with 幣 (money, currency, silk, presents) and the Mawangdui as well, yet Hendricks translates as if looking at the more recent versions which use 弊 (incomplete, lacking). The next oldest version (Fu Yi, which is in between what Hendrick used and what most use) even had a different character: 敝 , which is very close in meaning to the Wang Bi; so we can now see the first change occurred with the third oldest manuscripts. The word used for ‘greatest perfection’ (Wu) also means success or prosperity and contrasts with ‘lacking’. So an original meaning of value or worth may be a consideration. Line 1 Compared for last word oldest to most recent: 大成若缺其用不幣 - Goudian 大成若缺亓用不幣 - Mawangdui A 大成若缺其用不敝 - FuYi 大成若缺其用不弊 - Heshang Gong 大成若缺其用不弊 - Wang Bi Great accomplishment seems imperfect -- Feng/English based on Wang Bi Sentence two is really unchanged and is parallel to line 1. The next three are parallel to each other and originally all had the ending word with a 出 (chu) part to the character. Line 5-7 Guodian endings compared: 5... 拙 6... 诎 7... 屈 The original Guodian order of the three is different than we see now. Once sync’ed up, you will see that Guodian Line 6 (or Wang Bi Line 7) was changed for two words and the meaning is completely different. Hendricks does an interesting job to show how the change occurred. He shows how the MWD-A is corruption of two lines of the Guodian then shows how eventually through next manuscripts one arrives at 訥 (stammer) and in order to create an opposite the second character was eventually changed to 辯 (eloquence). There seems to be an old justification that 成 is already in line 1, so being repeated here does not make sense. If these two sections are not originally one, then there is no reason to hunt for a reason for any change. There is no reason to change the last character since it breaks the parallel ending of the original; and no reason to change the second character after that is obvious enough. Line 6 Guodian (Line 7 Wang Bi) Compared when sync’ed: 大成若诎 - Guodian 大贏如炳 - Mawangdui A 大辯若訥 - Fu Yi 大辯若訥- Hesheng Gong 大辯若訥 - Wang Bi Hendricks translates the GD as: Great gains seem to be losses Great advances seem like retreats (alternate)