dawei

Yes I have had the same thought about the use of "good" (for Shan, 善).

This is one of those chapters with enough differences between manuscripts to keep us guessing. For example: Hendricks did not typo when he wrote, "Therefore the good man is the teacher of the good", while the rest have "teacher of bad men". The oldest text do not have 'bad'. Also and which interests me more is the one line that Manitou mentions of the 'inner light', in various text as: 是胃申明 - MWD A shi wei shen ming 是胃曳明 - MWD B shi wei ye ming 是謂襲明 - Wang Bi, Heshang Gong and Fu Yi shi wei xi ming I can't see how Hendricks comes up with Doubly Bright except that the modern 'xi' carries the gloss of 'double' and therefore he must gloss the older text (which he translates) as the equivalent of the newer text. My gut would say that the oldest text is more correct with 'shen', but this is maybe an ancient gloss for 'spirit' or 'divine essence' from another 'shen' (神), note right side of character.

On my daughter's first birthday Finally, after almost forty years of life, I have a girl. We named her Golden-Bells, and it's been a year since she was born. Saying nothing, she studies sitting now, but it seems I'm no sage-master at heart. I can't get free of this trifling affection; I know it's only a tangle of appearance, but however empty, it's bliss to see her. I'll worry about her dying. Spared that, I'll worry about finding a good husband. All those plans to find a mountain home; I guess they'll wait another fifteen years. Just two years later... In Sickness, Mourning Golden-Bells What can I do? So sick, and your life cut so short pitching me into such grief it startles me from sleep. I get up and try lamplight for comfort against these tears, but a daughter's an absolute tangle of love, and without a son the sorrow's inescapable. After three full years of nurture and care, a sickness barely lasting ten quick days; such things tear at the heart long after tears follow the last cries of grief away. Little robes still hung on dressing-racks, the useless medicines there at your pillow, we send you off in this deep village lane, then watch earth fill your tiny grave over. Don't say you're hardly a mile away here; this is farewell to the very ends of heaven. Poet: Po Chu-I, more well known by this name due to Wades Giles notation Chinese: Bai Juyi (Chinese: 白居易) Translation: David Hinton, The selected poems of Po Chu-I I have many books of chinese poetry but Bai Juyi (and particularly these two poems) show his intense connection to Taoism, Zen and humanity in a way that really grabs me.

Stig. Great thread and could not agree more. Stop talking, re-packaging, and re-defining it; just LIVE the true original three treasures: Tian-Ren-Di. We played that game as a youth, 'monkey in the middle'... nice to see you have this as 'man in the middle'!

I like everything you said but this one comment: "it doesn't seem quite pertinent enough for the rest of the paragraph, to me." I want to know what exactly is the 'rest of the paragraph' before commenting.

I am not sure if your saying that this is one interpretation of the passage; to make bad men good? I don't think that is what LZ cares about. See opening lines of chapter 62. It's all about Dao, whether good or bad. He only takes their distinction as a metaphor for roles or tasks one serves in life: teacher and student.

1. What exactly do you mean by attributes? Characteristics, effects, almost like personality-traits? Definitely not personality traits. But I think as you become more aware the more you'll see both physical and spiritual aspects which Lao Zi uses to describe Dao. 2. How many are there, is there a number to be placed? Infinite, like a void which cannot contain Dao itself. 3. How do we know the attributes, or, how have we come to know? I think there are both physical and spiritual apprehensions which probably offer many ways. One might be purely academic about it and/or just read and stick to the philosophical aspect (which is probably the most popular way but possibly the most limiting too); one might intuit and experience it from life itself; one might practice an art and pursue some of the spiritual aspects or be on a spiritual journey. They all offer something. I personally do the combination since I tend to be eclectic by nature. You will likewise find your own 'way'. 4. By "we" do you mean "you" or "we" in general as all those who studied Dao deeply enough for a long enough time, etc.? Everyone is plugged into the Dao, so it is accessible, in a sense, but the methods may vary as I mentioned above. I'll leave you with one thought: The most important is to be open to the universe; think 'accept'; don't limit yourself.

Since Chapter 25 is mentioned, let's not forget what it says earlier in the chapter: We do not know its name So Style it "Dao" [Way] Forced to call it a name, we call it "great" - Tr. Richard John Lynn A name is used for shapes and forms; but Dao being without shape or form cannot take on a name. Once you name it, it is make distinct and separate and you lose it. Instead, Lao Zi seems to be designating its attribute. Forced to give it a name, he simply uses "great" (da). Maybe "vast" is more appropriate or "all-encompassing" but it is greater than all things, I think is his point. I find this an interesting thought on a certain level (I was in conservative christian circles for many years), but because we know the attributes of Dao, that would mean we get the attributes of God. In which case, if they are as Lao Zi presents, then this is ultimately not the christian god nor any god; but it may suggest that Dao is that part of the 'universal' which acts/generates/arises. That Dao is really part of something; that part which Lao Zi talks about.

nice topic Stig. My first thoughts were: which organ is affected, but upon reflect 'desire' is not attached to any one organ from what I can tell. Which may make sense since it probably interferes with all of them on some level. But from the standpoint of which one's to shore-up, my thoughts went to the heart (commands 'order') and the kidneys (commands 'willpower'). But I don't think it's that easy. The liver is the origin of courage and resoluteness and the 'Hun' facilitates this. As I looked deeper, I found an article on specific drugs and specific organs. But I think that a solid focus on improving the congenital emotions associated to the organs is a worthwhile practice. From drugs & destruction to Health, Happiness and Wisdom

How much time have you spent in china or living among chinese? I will say that in my 11 trips to china over 6 years, and living with chinese in the US and in China... I find her voice representative. I would say that there are deep culture differences which makes it work for them and why it does not work for westerners. It would take too much explaining to do but she seems to articulate much of it well. The idea of "knowing Daoism" is another western conceit. Westerners want to talk it and claim to know it; Chinese live it. There are connections they make more fundamental: Thinking and doing; saying and doing; hearing and doing. knowing and doing. You can see the common denominator is "doing" as important. Reminds me of DDJ chapter 23 opening line. IMO, "knowing" is a card so overplayed by the west.

That is just defining based on the physical level. Like concentric circles, that is an inner circle. The key is to get to the outer circles. This may be one of those chapters where it is not to be discussed as much as discovered.

I recall in a medical qigong class being challenged with a kind of koan: "Are you solid?" I think when one gets to the point of answering "no", this line makes a lot more sense

Well, that is what the chapter is about and what Hilmer is translating as well. If we want to turn every chapter into what old folks in wheel chairs do, then I don't see the point to discuss any translation. There is sometimes so much tangential posts in these chapter discussions it's hard to know if the chapter has any discussion value at times. But I at least understand where you were coming from now.

Wei means external. So there are three Wei Qi fields we can develop to surround us which protect the body. See the first picture on the right. When you mentioned the fluid, I immediately had this image in my mind, of the three Wei Qi fields. I am not sure that this is technically a correct comparison to the role of the fluid but that was my first reaction. http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

Not sure where that point is coming from. If someone actually got through to all of those steps, I am not sure what greater potential there is; it seems one is completely self-actualized into the whole and lives accordingly. Maybe your talking something I am not thinking about.

I'll have to pose the question to my teachers since I know where you are going but I don't know if that is how it is viewed. My gut says that the fluid is more like a "Wei Qi" field which one creates with Qi; except in this case it was created more solid (or should I say more fluid-like).

I take it to mean that once someone gets to that point, there is no fear of death. It's just another part of the life cycle and fully accepted.

For those who maybe want to see the chinese: 1. 重為輕根， 2. 靜為躁君。 3. 是以君子終日行 4. 不離輕重。 5. 雖有榮觀 6. 燕處超然。 7. 奈何萬乘之主 8. 而以身輕天下。 9. 輕則失根， 10.躁則失君。 君 jun: monarch; king, ruler, lord; gentleman; 主 zhu: owner, master, lord line 2, 3 and 10 have 'Jun' and I think ruler (or rule) would be the best choice. There is mention of chariots and instead of baggage I would say it is heavy carts (ie: military). I am surprised at the number of translations using sage or gentleman; not my gut reaction. The last character of line 7 has 'Zhu'. Here is my translation: 1. Heavy is the basis of light 2. Calm is the ruler of haste 3. Thus the ruler travels all day 4. But does not distance himself from the heavy carts 5. Even though there is a spectacular view* 6. He calmly passes over this at the same time 7. What would happen if the one who rules over 10,000 chariots 8. Takes himself more lightly than all the world? 9. By being light, he would lose his basis [to rule] 10.By being hasty, he would lose his ruling position *This is following the Wang Bi but seems very out of place. It seems more likely that either the line should translate as passing by [the infrequently used but alternate] ‘watchtower’ (ie: enemy camps?) or the older text should be followed more closely, which differs in a few places.

Here is my personal source book. I feel lucky to have found something online I can just paste in: Month 1) LV Channel Menses Stop, energies combine at conception>> Month 2) GB Channel Embryo infused with Jing, Qi converts to amniotic fluid>> Month 3) PC Channel Mother's Qi and JinYe cleanse the fetal Shen>> Month 4) SJ Channel Yin organs develop, Water Jing accepted into fetus's body>> Month 5) SP Channel Wu Jing Shen enter the orbs, Fire Jing accepted >> Month 6) ST Channel The six tones established, Metal Jing accepted>> Month 7) LU Channel the 7 Essential Stars open the orifices to the light of>> Heaven and Earth, Wood Jing accepted >> Month 8) LI Channel HT is harmonized with breath, Earth Jing is accepted>> Month 9) KD Channel KD channel controls the energetic intake from the umbilicus>> Energetic boundaries completed>> Month10) UB Channel spatial cavities around major organs completed, >> Heaven and earth settle into baby's Lower Dan Tian,>> Birth begins Link: energetic embryological structure of the 10 lunar months of pregnancy From book: Chinese Medical QiGong Therapy: A Comprehensive Text, Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson

Here is my translation: 太上,下知有之。 其次親而譽之。 其次畏之。 其次侮之。 信不足焉， 有不信焉。 悠兮其貴言， 功成事遂， 百姓皆謂我自然 The best rulers are barely known by the people The next rulers are the ones loved and praised The next rulers are the ones feared The next rulers are the ones dispised If his trust is insufficient There is a lack of trust in him If he is gentle, his words are valued If the people feel: Their work is accomplished and their affairs are completed They will say: This is our natural course of life IMO, this chapter really rings for both Daoism and Confucianism. Confucius also thought that the king needed to stay out of people's affairs; Ruling less is best. When that ruling is done correctly, people are not even aware of being rule and find their life is more fulfilled with getting things done naturally and without interference. The last line is: 百姓皆謂我自然 100 Surnames/Families/People Each-and-every Speak I'm natural I actually moved the phrase "people" into the line before this since I see both lines as a continuous thought. I then left this line with just "they..." 百姓 - Bai (100) Xing (surnames): 100 surnames or families but sometimes translated as just [common] people. I have heard arguments whether this is really a reference to nobility since only nobility had surnames for the most part. But I don't agree since that is going back to the patriarchal phase and I think the 100 surnames go back to the matriarchal phase and thus there was no nobility per se. 自然 - Zi Ran. natural, naturalness or it-self-so-ing. A well known phrase which should be understood as closing the chapter. The people are most satisfied when life feels it is lived most naturally.

here is my translation: Devote yourself to the utmost emptiness Abide in sincere calmness As all things arise side by side observe their returning Heaven's way is circular Everything returns to their root Returning to the root brings this calmness This is called returning to one's destiny Returning to one's destiny is the constancy [of life] To know constancy is to bring clarity To not knowing constancy is to bring adversity If you know constancy you will be all-embracing To be all-embracing is to be impartial To be impartial is to be as a king To be a king is to be with heaven To be with heaven is to be with the Way To be with the Way is to be everlasting As long as you live [this way], there will be no peril too great The first line opens with: 致 = attain, devote, cause to come, bring about The last line ends with: 殆 = precarious, dangerous, perilous, tired, afraid I think the last line is meant to convey that given all the above, life is not defined as pain and peril. Things arise and return as part of their daily existence. There is a 'straw dog' aspect going on in this all-embracing calmness and clarity. When you attain the further reaches (極 - Ji, think as in Wu Ji) of emptiness, you reach that state where you observe the arising and returning; the constancy of Dao (and therefore of life). You see all things as arising; even pain or peril. But they return like everything else. Hilmer Alquiros has an interesting translation of the last line as: "the loss of the body is no danger" , as in no concern.

SECOND AND THIRD TO LAST LINES: There is not much variation from translators: 保 此 道 者 不 欲 盈 。 Those who hold to this Way do not seek fullness 夫 唯 不 盈 Because they are not [seeking to be] full ---- LAST LINE: Modern version, Wang Bi text 故 能 蔽 而 新 成 They therefore contain [all things] without [needing] renewal They are covered over and newly completed (being covered, you cannot put anything more in, yet they are completely full) Wang Bi text has a number of changes from the older text to convey a covering (cover over) and the ending lost it’s explicit “not” and added “new” before the last word. But the ending is often inferred with a “not” 是以能敝而不成 – MWD They are broken down but not needing renewal He is worn out but can that be? The MWD has “worn” instead of cover and ends with “yet not completed/accomplished”. The last two words can also be a compound in a rhetorical sense of, “can this be so?” Implying, that it is so. Both ways give me the same similar feeling to the idea in chapter 48 where it says that: follow Wu wei and nothing is left undone (everything is complete or full) --- Variations on Last Line: Following Wang Bi text: He can always remain like a hidden sprout and does not rush to early ripening. - Wu they are not swayed by desire for change. – English/Feng Therefore one can preserve and not create anew - Lin Hence they can shroud established forms. – Hansen it is possible to use to the full and not make anew. – Cleary Following older MWD text: Therefore he can wear out with no need to be renewed. - Hendricks He is beyond for things wearing out and renewal - Chan He is beyond wearing out and renewal. – Yutang even the worn out need not be renewed – Liao he can be both old and new – Zhengkun And you’ll wear away into completion - Hinton

Exactly abridged ! The Guodian text is interesting since it does not repeat the characters, it has a repeat marker, but it makes me want to read it as: humanity patterns earth patterns heaven patterns dao patterns naturalness (it-self-so-ing)