dawei

The Dao Speaks: http://www.amazon.com/Dao-Speaks-Whispers-Wisdom/dp/B000NHOJFM/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1291412037&sr=8-5 There is a second volume and other philosopher books as well. These are very insightful and fun to read. I buy a few when in china for about $1.00 each, but still worth the outrageous western markup

Yes, this first line is a gem! And it should come as no surprise that such a visually rich line is not repeated in some form. Chapter 45 has a single line which shares some of the same characters to convey the 'empty', 'full', 'use', and 'not used up'. Chapter 4: 道沖而用之有不盈 The Dao pours forth and yet has unlimited use. -- My translation Chapter 45: 大盈若沖其用不窮 What is most full seems empty but it’s usefulness is inexhaustible. -- Chan --- I take a slightly different translation direction than empty but the meaning is the same; it cannot be used up, it cannot be emptied (although it pours forth). The reason I go with the 'pouring forth' is that there is a strong water presence in the line. Chong (沖) and the original, obsolete character for Ying (盈) was this Ying (浧), both which have water radicals. It's also possible that the character was another one with one less stroke which I have the unicode for but it will not display, but can be seen here: http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi3/ZdicF0ZdicA3ZdicB3ZdicA4.htm --- The other line which is curious is the last one: 象帝之先 SIMILAR-LORD/GOD/EMPEROR-IT'S-PRIOR There are a few possibilities for "Di", which was posthumously ascribed to the Sage-Emperors (clan leaders) going back to Huang Di forward through the Qing Dynasty. But my feeling is that this is not really meant since that keeps it on the physical sphere. Wang Bi's commentary said that [he presumes] it means "Shang Di", which can mean 'Highest Ruler' or 'Heavenly Ruler' (whom sacrifices were made to). I prefer this reference over "God" since it is not completely the western concept of "God". What's curious is the use of "Di" as "Shang Di" was really more a Shang Dynasty concept and the Zhou Dynasty eventually replaces that with the use of "Tian". Lao Zi would of lived after the time of the fall of Zhou, so the usage of "Di" as in "Shang Di" seems actually less likely on some level. I have not researched this to really give a solid opinion, but I think it may be a general refer to things "Divine" in nature. I don't think any absolute solution is needed as we get the gist that Dao is before anything related to the physical sphere.

May I ask if your chinese? My main issue with the translation is the rather legalistic or should I say a kind of political rulership per the Huainanzi. Words like: mutiny, insurgents, rebel, disobedience are rarely reflected together here even by the strongest 'ruler translators' like Gu Zhengkun. It can have a strong ruler message but yours is a 'half empty' approach. Meaning, we can say that a ruler should embrace a certain way in order to avoid social upheaval, rebellion, and disobedience or we can equally say that his embracing a certain way will restore order, peace, and a return to nature. I tend to think Lao Zi focuses on the half-full approach of the latter way. Your translation stops short of there being any benefit other than to the ruler; it results in subjects who are little more than showing obedience to the throne. I don't feel this is a theme of the book nor this chapter, although it does have some direct governing connotations. Even the word translated "Superhuman". While the word itself is not obscure to most readers, it has no real meaning in context. So I think the choice of words is distracting or slanted towards a very specific position. You mention "ruthless frighteningly effective totalitarian state" and the cultural revolution. I wonder if you feel Lao Zi was a prophet since these do not occur till later, IMO. The start of it might be the unification under the Qin Dynasty which embraced legalism as it's political philosophy. But with the collapse of the Zhou Dynasty and maybe many felt the last good ruler gone (King Wu), the various states were going through a power play for alliance and annexation; Chu, where Lao Zi was from was one of the larger and more powerful states, but I've never seen it described as ""ruthless frighteningly effective totalitarian state". Nonetheless, your comments are interesting to read. Thanks.

That could be said of Wang Bi and all the others who wrote commentaries and the versions of the manuscript used by most today. The presence of the phrase 'wei wu wei' depends on the manuscript used too. Since 99.9% of the versions on bookshelves use Wang Bi as the basic text, you have that phrase at the end of this chapter. To be fair, he seems to follow the traditional rendering which is found in the Fu Yi but not found in the Ma Wang Dui (which Hendricks translates).

English translation: James Legge. 1891

Wei-Wu-Wei Yes, this is a hallmark contradictory compliment. Like the 'shapeless shape' or the 'formless form'. But when the text says 'actionless action', there is an entire movement of thought that arises. The conundrum is extensively explored here: Wei-wu-wei: Nondual action By David Loy Philosophy East and West Vol. 35, No. 1 (January 1985) http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/loy3.htm "The main problem with understanding wei-wu-wei is that it is a genuine paradox: the union of two contradictory concepts -- action ("...nothing remains undone") and nonaction ("nothing is done..."). The resolution of this paradox must somehow combine both concepts, but how this can be anything other than a contradiction in terms is difficult to understand. So it is not surprising that some scholars have concluded that it is an unresolvable contradiction." "I think that the problem is rather that, because Creel here is wholly governed by logic, he misses the fact that the paradox is resolved by a particular experience -- the realization of Tao -- which cannot be understood so logically. As with the Vedāntic realization of Brahman and the Buddhist attainment of nirvāṇa, this experience is nondual in the sense that there is no differentiation between subject and object, between self and world. The implication of this for action is that there is no longer any bifurcation between an agent, the self that is believed to do the action, and the objective action that is done. As usually understood, "action" requires an agent that is active; "nonaction" implies a subject that is passive, which does nothing and/or yields. The "action of non-action" occurs when there is no "I" to be either active or passive, which is an experience that can be expressed only paradoxically. The simpler interpretations of wu-wei as noninterference and yielding view not-acting as a kind of action; nondual action reverses this and sees nonaction -- that which does not change -- in the action."

Chinese Character Related: MDBG Dictionary ZDic Character Lookup Search by Radical Search by Unicode Concerning Lao Zi: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, on Lao Zi Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, on Lao Zi Lao Zi by Vicent Shen (PDF) Lao Zi’s Concept of Zi Ran Online Translations: DDJ by Waley and Lau, with mouse over on characters Tao Te King (trilingual) DDJ Translation Selector Multiple Translations Side by Side Translations Based on the Wang Bi manuscript: (Amazon.com) The Way of Lao Tzu by Wing-Tsit Chan Tao Te Ching by David Hinton Translations based on Wang Bi commentary notes: (Amazon.com) A Chinese reading of the Daodejing: Wang Bi's commentary... by Rudolf Wagner The Classic of the Way and Virtue by Richard John Lynn Translations based on the Ma Wang Dui manuscript: (Amazon.com) Te-Tao Ching by Robert Hendricks Books based on the Guodian manuscript: (Amazon.com) Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching by Robert Hendricks The Guodian Laozi: Proceedings of the International Conference, Dartmouth College Guodian Lao Zi Related: Guodian Bamboo Pictures at DIO

If you were, would you know it? If you could admit to doing it, is that really doing the 'two as one'?

When I said we had discussed this before, Twinner knows my position is that there are lots of external influences. So I was trying to keep myself in check by not wanting to go there without cause [yet] Your point is well taken, so some general comments or background on Wang Bi is probably best. I'm glad you called that out. Thanks for giving me that cause.

I did not mean that. I said what manifests is 'forgiveness'. The manifest is the flip side; it is the reality we live and know but it's source is that impartiality we know as the great Way. (as Sloppy said, avoiding value judgments or assessments). My point was that we divide these issues up in our head but they are not so distinct on some level. How do we, when we feel broken inside, bring these together as a whole? Or are these already together, then how do we benefit from that? That is kind of where I was going. I think that this is a self-discovery on some level. Anger or mercy? Like sun and rain. As Ecclesiastes says: For everything there is a season. I also think there is balance (or a cycle) to nature. So why not ask my thoughts about happiness or joy? (rhetorical, no need to ask). I know at one time you thought to write a DDJ "12 steps". I still think that would be worthwhile to consider to explore these kinds of issues.

Twinner and I have had this discussion before, so I am joking a little bit but I did say influences cannot be avoided. I really meant not to get side tracked too much with what was purely confucian or buddhist interjection to the meaning of what Lao Zi may of meant back in 300 B.C. When we discuss the changes in characters or change in emphasis we see, I think we'll find it unavoidable. For Wang Bi, he strongly impacted many of the ideas we think are fundamental to the text. I keep Lynn's and Rudolf Wagner's translations of Wang Bi's commentary close by and they are indispensable. Not sure if the following should get moved to the general thread but here is some background and links for further study: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy: http://www.iep.utm.edu/wangbi/ "As a self-identified Confucian, Wang Bi wanted to create an understanding of Daoism that was consistent with Confucianism but which did not fall into what he considered to be the errors of then-popular Daoist sectarian groups. A Confucian rather than a sectarian Daoist, Wang Bi wanted to create an understanding of Daoism that was consistent with Confucianism but which did not fall into what he considered to be the errors of the Celestial Masters and their popular religious practices. He understood his main task to be the restoration of order and a sense of direction to Chinese society after the turbulent final years of the Han. He offered the ideal of establishing the “true way” (zhendao) as the solution. Undoubtedly, his ultimate goal was to examine the mysterious knowledge of creation and translate it into a viable political and social program." He would be more appropriately called a "Neo-Daoist". But as Fung Yu-Lan says in his A Short History of Chinese Philosophy: "The Neo-Taoist, despite their Taoism, Consider Confucius to be even greater than Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Confucius, they maintained, did not speak against forgetfulness, because he had already learned that he had forgotten that he had learned to forget. Nor did he speak of absence of desire, because he had already reached the stage of lacking any desire to be without desire". Wang Bi, when asked why "Wu" was so fundamental a principle said: "The Sage [Confucius] identified himself with WU [non-being] and realized it could not be made the subject of instruction, with the result with the result that they he felt compelled to deal only with YU [being]. But Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu had not yet completely left the sphere of YU [non-being], with the result that they spoke constantly of their deficiencies". And Wing-Tsit Chan says in his equally well known work, A source book in Chinese philosophy: These schools of thought went "beyond phenomena to find reality beyond space and time. They found this in the non-being of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu but gave it a new meaning. Hence, these schools are called by modern scholars Neo-Taoism. But these philosophers are not exclusively Taoistic. Like philosophers of the Han, they are syncretic. While they are Taoistic in their metaphysics, they are Confucian in their social and political philosophy." "Wang Pi went beyond the realms of names and forms to ultimate reality, namely original non-being. According to his theory which is developed in his commentary on the Lao Tzu, original non-being transcends all distinctions and descriptions. It is the pure being, the original substance, and the one in which substance and function are identified... it is remarkable that in a time of disunity and confusion, he should insist on a united system based on one fundamental reality, original non-being" For more on Neo-Daoism, Wang Bi, and the XuanXue movement he is often associated with: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neo-taoism/

Hey Twinner, I think the "Confucian influence" is somewhat controversial since 'influences' exists from time-past to time-future. I don't want to side track too much, but there is great irony in the fact that the DDJ received text version embraced around the world was written by a Confucian, Wang Bi. But I think for studying these DDJ manuscripts and not getting caught up in what "Daoism" evolved into later may be avoided for our general purposes... well, at least, we'll see if that's the case or not.

I think Wu's translation takes some liberty. Here is what I think is a proper rendering by Rudolf Wagner's study of Wang Bi: "If [the good ones] strive by means of it, they achieve what they strive for. If [the not good ones] avoid [punishment] by means of it [the Way], they manage to avoid it." Wang Bi says: "There is nothing that is [this Way] does not bring about. That is why it is [most] valued in All Under Heaven." This is a picture of the 'impartiality' of the Way. No favoritism. If there is a word, maybe I say what "is". There is neither good nor bad; neither praise nor punishment; neither acceptance nor forgiveness; What does that really mean??? THAT WHAT MANIFESTS IS: good and bad; praise and punishment; acceptance and forgiveness. I have never taken notice of this chapter section but I will say that it fits well with the general theme of the book and is quite profound. What is the process of the Great Way? How do we came into this world and how will we go out? In-between, how will this existence of the ten thousand things treat us and make us feel? That is each person's journey of 1,000 miles which begins with a single step. Lao Zi did not mention obstacles along the way but the mere mention of this journey may be all he could muster to tell us.

And I call you by seeing your point But I have more to say 1. Interesting that the original character in the Guodian is Tian (天) but seems that all later manuscripts have changed it to Fu (夫). Of course one can see their similar form and in the Guodian their difference is sometimes not any different. Although this chapter already has Tian and so it is easy to see that in both cases of Tian, the strokes are exactly the same on the bamboo slips. 2. #1 aside, it seems that the main reason that later manuscripts ignore the possibility of Tian is because of the NEXT character Wei (唯). It seems that Fu Wei (夫唯) exists in the entire 81 chapters about 12 times, while Tian Wei (天唯) only occurs in the Guodian once, ergo, by the laws of probability it seems more likely that it should of been Fu Wei. 3. #2 aside (see where this is going ), in most translations, Fu Wei (夫唯) is translated in all these chapters as: Because of, yet only, truly, for only, etc. While not quite a compound word it appears to be treated together in meaning in most all its occurrence. I'm not trying to talk you out of your usage but your free to use it as more notes

Since I don't see the Sage as the subject to those last lines, I don't see the 'farming' angle. As Rene suggests; the myriad things don't need man's input or direction to flourish. Things arise on their own.

Line 13: 萬物作焉而不辭, -- Wànwù zuò yān bù cí, Line 13 provides a challenge in that I have found several variations of the characters: 1. 萬物作焉而不辭, - WB and HSG (see also chapter 34 usage) 2. 萬物作而弗始， - MWD B, GD 3. 萬物作焉而不無始, - FY (Wang Bi's notes of Chapter 17 quote Chapter 2 as 'wei shi'). ---- I thought I would add a few comments concerning the manuscript variations (assigned above). The use of shi (始) seems well grounded as the oldest manuscripts (MWD, GD) have it and the FY is supposedly based on a Han Tomb Manuscript (ie: as the MWD were), simply replaced 'fu' with 'bu wei'. Those that choose to use 'shi' do so based on the historical manuscript use AND that Wang Bi in his Chapter 17 notes cites the FY version which has 'shi'. Then why does WB text have 'ci'? This is a long story but those who have studied the WB notes found that when the notes don't match his text, his text most of the follows the HSG, which was the prevailing and popular manuscript of the day. SO blame the editors HSG bias(?). Those that stick to using 'ci' cite Wang Bi's use in Chapter 34 as very parallel and justified: chapter v2: 萬物作---焉而不辭 chapter 34: 萬物恃之而生而不辭 The main problem I see with that argument is that NONE of the older manuscripts have this Chapter 34 block of text at all. There are a few other issues but the only one worth mentioning is the WB use of qing (傾) instead of ying (盈) which cannot be explained easily. One person told me that the Han ruler Liu Ying would of required that character to be removed (ie: Naming taboo). But I then asked why the other 9 occurrences of 'ying' were not also (they remain in the WB)?

Hi Stig, Have enjoyed reading your version so far. Two comments: 1. Where you put the "Original Chinese" it is the seal characters (although Dao looks bronze) of the Wang Bi received text, yes? To say that this is the "original text" is misleading. It is simply a seal character of the Wang Bi, not "original" in the sense that the MaWangDui and Goudian are older and do have different characters at times. I might personally label that section slightly differently than "original". 2. As we are discussing in the other subforum, and as Rene pointed out first and I agree that the second half does not seem to me to be about the Sage throughout. I know it is more common to translate the subject as the sage but I disagree. Now, the argument could be made that Chapter 10 has some of the same lines and appears to be directed to people, so it's reasonable that it can be here as well. True. But Chapter 51 also has these lines and appear to be directed to Tao and Te; so it's a wash to use another chapter necessarily. Anyways, if you stick with the sage as the subject, I will say that I think you have actually conveyed it better than most translations I have read, which read a bit awkward. thanks for continuing to share your translation.

Well, Rene beat me to the punch I wanted to take at this chapter While there are some minor textual differences to the older versions which might change a word here or there, there are two places where a few characters appear to be added. Twinner, realize by quoting Henricks you are showing his translation of the older manuscript. Note he is missing a block of text which most translate as the 'claiming credit' line. This goes between his lines 12 and 13. What is also missing by only quoting Hendricks' translation is that he explains in his commentary notes that while he feels the subject of line 10 (the sage) shifts to the ten thousands in line 11 but then shifts back to the sage. He acknowledges that strictly speaking, it should remain on the ten thousand things, in which case he offers an alternate ending in his notes: [Tr. Hendricks] 12. He acts on their behalf, but he doesn't make them dependent; 13. He accomplishes his tasks, but he doesn't dwell on them; 14. It is because he does not dwell on them, that they therefore do not leave him. (you did not post this ending) [Tr. Hendricks in notes] 12. They act but he doesn't make them dependent; 13. They accomplish their tasks, but he doesn't dwell on them; In this way, he keeps the focus on the ten thousand but still let's the sage be reflected as to his role. One of my favor translator of chinese texts (various philosophical writings and a lot of poetry) is David Hinton and he clearly mixes the older manuscript words where appropriate and is one of the few to shift from the sage to the ten thousand but end it with a personal note: [Tr. Hinton] That's why the sage abides in the realm of nothing's own doing Living out that wordless teaching. The ten thousand things arise without beginning there; abide without waiting there; come to perfection without dwelling there. Without dwelling there: That's the one way you'll never lose it. This chapter is a linked chapter with parts of the ending also in chapters 10,51, and 77.

That's an interesting point about Yutang. I just checked his commentary and he wrote the intro in 1948! So he didn't seem to have access to the Mawangdui version either! I think Derek does a good job in many cases capturing a meaning some others don't seem to quite be able to do. His translation is worth a look. Probably like everyone, I have my favorites and buy those authors so they are close at hand. I do like to compare/contrast authors and versions. Look forward to more.

It may be useful to still keep the upper, middle and lower compared. So I'll do that with UDT, MDT, LDT, respectively. UDT - Shen - Spirit - Mind - Spiritual - Heaven Qi (most Yang) MDT - Qi - Energy - Breath - Emotional - Transforming Qi LDT - Jing - Essence - Posture - Physical - Earth Qi (most Yin)

Hi Twinner. Nice Start with this important chapter which is not without its controversy. I won't get into the Wu vs You stuff, it gets a good beating anywhere it's discussed. As you mentioned, it's not in the Guodian (GD) version but with that absence the next oldest version is the Ma wang Dui (MWD) which did have a few differences. I won't discuss the most commonly known which is the MWD had Heng whereas the Wang Bi (WB) has Chang in the opening lines due to the taboo use of the rulers name in writings. I would rather talk about the lines I quoted above. There are some small changes from the MWD I think of interest: WB: So, as ever hidden, we should look at its inner essence:; The last word is Miao 妙 with the lady radical to the left. The MWD has Miao 眇 which has an eye radical to the left. So the oldest character has a suggestion of 'seeing' in the character of Miao: Hendricks translates the ending as: 'perceive its subtlety'. WB: These two flow from the same source, though differently named; And both are called mysteries.; The MWD does NOT have a few of these characters. WB: 此兩者同出而異名同謂之玄。 MWD:-兩者同出-異名同謂 --。 Hendricks: "These Two together emerge; They have different names yet they are called the same." WB: The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence. The last word is Miao 妙 with the lady radical to the left. The MWD has Miao 眇 which has an eye radical to the left. Hendricks translate again as 'subtlety'. It would seem that WB version tries to make it more mysterious and 'dark'. WB was a part of a group of thinkers/scholars under the term XuanXue (Dark Learning, Mysterious Learning). Note the 玄 (Xuan) three times in the chapter 1. He seems to find it important to emphasis, even embrace, the darker more mysterious aspects which the MWD did not necessarily emphasis as much. At least that is my opinion. Hope you find that interesting. FYI: I choose Hendricks translation since he is one of the very few to do one on the MWD (and the GD). Not because you don't care for him

Yin in internal; Yang is external. Yin dwells. Yang guards. For Yang Qi, I would therefore focus on the lower dan tian and building up that Qi reserve for all the meridians and vessels (which guard the body). Nei gong and meditation is a primary consideration. For Yin Qi, I would focus on the Yin organs: Heart, Kidney, Liver, Lung, Spleen. These practices can use the aid of sound, color, tongue position, etc. Also in general: Just breath in Yang Qi vs Yin Qi. Some use hands up (Yang from heaven) or crown of head and hands down (Yin from earth) and feet; But you can just start by thinking it with breathing. Only because you bring up the middle dan tian: It is not mentioned as much for exercises or training due to it's proximity to the heart (Fire Qi). You can easily cause yourself serious problems if your not careful in this area. If your practice includes [eventually] to breath from your crown downward and your feet upward, Yin organs, and and Qi circulations, the middle really gets taken care of. There are some specific breathing to get in touch with that area and there is the Tai Ji Pole which connects all three, but I would not really recommend going further into this without some guidance.

You don't say specifically what alternate practices but since you mention Medical Qigong I assume that? That in itself can take a few years to get through. So I think one way may be to get a LMT license and use it as part of your scope of services. That takes about 800 hours (?) and then the national test.