dawei

In the Sermon on the Plain in the Gospel of Luke, as part of his command to "love your enemies", Jesus says:

thank you... twice

Wow... I quickly misread the first post... I thought mantra was mudra... That might be like trying to reach out to a female deity and getting ilumairen instead

FWIW: I prefer "know" to "understanding". The former may imply it comes to one in various ways but the latter sometimes feels like we need to seek to understand.

that's a pretty cool pic. I have not consider this trichotomy. I've been mulling some of what you and Apech have mentioned and ran across something from Roth, about a decade before he wrote his Neiye translation: The Early Taoist Concept of Shen: A Ghost in the Machine He goes on to then talk about the Guanzi... which I found very informative towards explaining his translation. https://www.academia.edu/6910491/The_Early_Taoist_Concept_of_SHEN_A_Ghost_in_the_Machine

Just send it from your current account. We don't allow multiple accounts so they get purged.

You should be setup https://www.thedaobums.com/forum/575-old-student/

ok for reference for others: (Don't worry.. hard to assign these so I can) 心 乃 反 濟 Your heart/mind then returns [to its original nature] successfully. (Eno Section #2; Roth Section #3) 能 反 其 性 You can return to your [original] nature, 性 將 大 定 And your nature will be exceptionally settled. (Eno, last two lines of Section #15; Roth Section #22) (Spiritual intelligence/Yuan shen = the original consciousness.) I think this would need discussion as all of those words are not in the Neiye explicitly and willing to talk more. You mentioned Original Spirit (Yuan Shen) as Hun (from above). Apech mentioned 'intelligence' I think in regards to the spirits. So is the original consciousness is really original Spirit [intelligence] that man can gather or is there and needs to be nurtured ?

To clarify the source of his translations, as the << click here>> would show the source: 1. 律书 - The Shiji - Record of the Grand Historian... Sima Qian 2. 营卫生会 - Ancient medical classic, The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine, sub section: Spiritual Pivot 3. 口问 - Within Same as above 4. 五癃津液别 - Within Same as above

Can you give an example of line(s) that are talking about an original nature ? I might agree that it wants a kind of self-perfection/realization which is more like the True Man--Zhen Ren of Zhuangzi; Here, realized in the spiritual forces of Jing, Qi, Shen, Dao, De... if that is what you mean.

I have updated the chapter study to include Dan Reid's translation and his notes. Please re-read the first post of each chapter as you want.

Yes, I was thinking earlier about the shaman shift as some have described their lessor role, as well as the spirits. I read it in K.C Chang (archaeologist) in one of his books and Puett also talks about it. The latter quotes the former that everything (ie: every realm) participated in one spontaneously self-generating life process called a correlative cosmology. Puett cites another author who said that while the Neiye seems based on shamanistic practices but instead of dealing directly with spirits the Neiye deals with naturalistic, numinous forces... ghosts and spirits become depersonalized though numinous forces of nature. Instead of linking with spirits there is a shift to perfecting the self [through spiritual/numinous forces of nature]. An interesting aside, the Celestial Masters religion around 120 AD got a revelation directly from Laozi which resulted in the Xiang'er commentary to the LZ book... some of it reads similar to the Neiye.

The challenge in this line is how to structure the characters for translation. Roth: 氣 道 乃 生 - Qi Dao Nai Sheng When the vital energy (Qi-氣) guides (Dao-道) it (Nai-乃) [vital essence-paren by Roth] is generated (Sheng-生, often as born) So the challenge.. is, what is the "it" (although Nai is usually transition to something next, a result of, therefore) ? Linnell: 氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life; 生 乃 思 With life, then there is contemplation; 思 乃 知 With contemplation, then there is understanding; 知 乃 止 矣 When you reach understanding, then stop! 凡 心 之 形 Always : if the form of the heart/mind 過 知 失 生 Has too much understanding, life is lost. Dan Reid translated it as: The way of energy-breath is to flourish. That is the most straightforward way that I would of done it. Taoist Text shows some other text examples of QiDao as being the 'Qi duct'. @Taoist Texts: I see your translation as 'originating' (Sheng) in Jing but find that a bit forced to look backwards. I think I'd still move to 'life' or gives life or establishes life. But I follow your point. thanks.

Section 3: The Dao Eno By means of the Dao forms are made full, yet men are not able to cleave firmly to it. Once gone it may not return, Once come it may not remain. So silent! None hears its sound. So compact! It resides in the heart [xin]. So dark! Invisible of form. So overflowing! It is born along with me. Its form unseen, Its sound unheard, Yet its doings perfectly ordered. Such we call: the Dao. The Dao has no fixed place; it dwells at peace in a good heart [Xin] When the heart is tranquil and the qi aligned, the Dao may be made to stay. The Dao is not distant, people gain it in being born. The Dao never departs, people rely on it for awareness. How compact! As though it could be bound up. How remote! As though exhausting all nothingness. The natural being of the Dao abhors thought and voice. Refine the heart [xin] and calm thoughts, and the Dao may be grasped. The Dao Is what the mouth cannot speak, Is what the eye cannot see, Is what the ear cannot hear. It is the means to refine the heart and rectify the form. Men die when they lose it. Men live when they gain it. Affairs fail when they lose it. Affairs succeed when they gain it. The Dao has neither root not stalk, nor leaves, nor blossoms. Yet the things of the world gain it and are born; the things of the world gain it and mature. This is termed: the Dao. Linnell 夫 道 者 所 以 充 形 也 Now : Dao is the reason that the form [of the heart/mind] is full! 而 人 不 能 固 But people can not be strong enough to keep it – 其 往 不 復 It goes and does not return, 其 來 不 舍 It arrives but does not dwell. 寂 乎 Is it silent? 莫 聞 其 音 There is no one who can hear its sound. 卒 乎 Is it close? 乃 在 於 心 It is residing in the heart/mind [xin] 冥 冥 乎 Is it very dim and obscure? 不 見 其 形 You can not see its form. 淫 淫 乎 Is it very prolific? 與 我 俱 生 It gives us all life. 不 見 其 形 You can not see its form, 不 聞 其 聲 You can not hear its voice, 而 序 其 成 Yet there is an order to its accomplishments. 謂 之 道 We call it Dao. 凡 道 無 所 Always : Dao is nowhere to be found, 善 心 安 處 But in a virtuous heart/mind [xin] it can calmly dwell. 心 靜 氣 理 When the heart/mind [xin] is still and Qi is regulated, 道 乃 可 止 Dao can then stay there. 彼 道 不 遠 That Dao is not remote : 民 得 以 產 Citizens attain it by being born. 彼 道 不 離 That Dao does not depart : 民 因 以 知 Citizens rely on it for understanding. 是 故 卒 乎 Thus : is it close? 其 如 可 與 索 As though it could be tied together with you. 眇 眇 乎 Is it very minute and subtle? 其 如 窮 無 所 As though it is utterly nowhere to be found. 彼 道 之 情 The nature of that Dao 惡 意 與 聲 Detests thoughts and words about it. 修 心 靜 意 But when you cultivate your heart/mind [xin] and still your thoughts, 道 乃 可 得 Dao can then be attained. 道 也 者 Dao – 口 之 所 不 能 言 也 That which your mouth can not speak! 目 之 所 不 能 視 也 That which your eyes can not see! 耳 之 所 不 能 聽 也 That which your ears can not hear! 所 以 修 心 而 正 形 也 It is the reason that we cultivate the heart/mind and properly align [its] form! 人 之 所 失 以 死 That which when people lose, thus they die. 所 得 以 生 也 That which when attained, thus they are born! 事 之 所 失 以 敗 That which when duties lose, thus they fail. 所 得 以 成 也 That which when attained, thus they are completed! 凡 道 Always : Dao is 無 根 無 莖 Without root, without stalk, 無 葉 無 榮 Without leaves, without flowers. 萬 物 以 生 By means of it the ten thousand creatures are born, 萬 物 以 成 By means of it the ten thousand creatures are made complete. 命 之 曰 道 This [natural] order, it is called Dao. Roth -- Section 4 -- [First 5 lines in previous section] 6. The Way [Dao] is what infuses the body, 7. Yet people are unable to fix it in place. 8. It goes forth but does not return, 9. It comes back but does not stay. 10. Silent! none can hear its sound. 11. Suddenly stopping! it abides within the mind [xin]. 12. Obscure! we do not see its form. 13. Surging forth! it arises with us. 14. We do not see its form, 15. We do not hear its sound, 16. Yet we can perceive an order to its accomplishments. 17. We call it "the Way." [Dao] -- Section 5 -- 1. The way [Dao] has no fixed position; 2. It abides within the excellent mind [xin]. 3. When the mind is tranquil and the vital breath [Qi] is regular, 4. The Way [Dao] can thereby be halted. 5. That Way [Dao] is not distant from us; 6. When people attain it they are sustained 7. That Way [Dao] is not separated from us; 8. When people accord with it they are harmonious. 9. Therefore: Concentrated! as though you could be roped together with it. 10. Indiscernible! as though beyond all locations. 11. The true state of that Way [Dao] : 12. How could it be conceived of and pronounced upon? 13. Cultivate your mind [xin], make your thoughts tranquil, 14. And the Way [Dao] can thereby be attained. -- Section 6 -- 1. As for the way [Dao] : 2. It is what the mouth cannot speak of, 3. The eyes cannot see, 4. And the ears cannot hear. 5. It is that with which we cultivate the mind [Xin] and align the body. 6. When people lose it they die; 7. When people gain it they flourish. 8. When endeavours lose it they fail; 9. When they gain it they succeed. 10. The way [Dao] never has a root or trunk, 11. It never has leaves or flowers. 12. The myriad things are generated by it; 13. The myriad things are completed by it. 14. We designate it "the Way." [Dao] Shazi Daoren -- Section 4 -- [First 5 lines in previous section] The Way [Dao] is what fills the body, yet people are unable to fix it in place. It goes forth but does not return; it comes back but does not stay. Silent! None can hear its sound. Present! It exists within the heart [xin]. Obscure! We do not see its form. Manifest! It arises with us. Look at it and not see its form, listen to it and not hear its sound. Yet there is a course to its accomplishments. We call it the Way [Dao] . -- Section 5 -- The Way [Dao] has no fixed position; in the cultivated Heart, it gracefully abides. When the heart is calm and Energy [Qi] aligned, the Way [Dao] can thereby repose. The Way [Dao] is not distant from us, when people attain it they are fruitful The Way [Dao] does not leave, when people are in tune with it, they understand. Thus it is present! As if you need but ask for it. Remote! As if dissipated and is nowhere to be found. The Way's [Dao] sensation: How can you be in tune with its sound? Cultivate your Heart [xin] and you will resonate in tune. The Way [Dao] thereby can be attained -- Section 6 -- As for Dao, the mouth is not able to speak of it, the eyes are not able to see it, the ears are not able to hear it, it is that which cultivates the Heart [xin] and aligns the body. When people lose it they die, when they attain it they flourish, when endeavors lose it they fail, when they attain it they succeed, thus Dao is always without root without trunk. Without leaves without flowers, the myriad things are generated by it; the myriad things are completed by it. We declare it 'Dao'. Yueya -- Section 4 -- [First 5 lines in previous section] The Dao is what infuses the body, Yet people are unable to fix it in place. It goes forth but does not return; It comes back but does not stay. Silent! no one can hear its sound. Suddenly at rest, it resides in the heart-mind [xin]. Obscure! we do not see its form; Surging forth! it arises within us. We do not see its form; We do not hear its sound. Yet there is order to its accomplishments. We refer to it as “Dao.” — Section 5— Now then, the Dao is without a set place; But the calmness of an adept heart-mind makes a place. When the heart-mind is still and qi is regular, The Dao may then come to rest. Such a way [Dao] is not remote from us – When people cultivate it, they are thereby sustained. Such a way [Dao] is not separate from us – When people accord with it, they are thereby harmonious. Thus, become concentrated as though roped together by it. Become indiscernible as though beyond all location. Considering the disposition of this Dao, How can it be conceived of or discussed? Cultivate the heart-mind [xin] and still your thinking; The Dao may then be realized. — Section 6— Let us consider the Dao— It is what the mouth cannot express; It is what the eyes cannot perceive; It is what the ears cannot hear. It is that through which we cultivate the heart-mind [xin] and align the body. When humans lose it, they die; When they attain it, they flourish. When endeavours lose it, they fail; When endeavours attain it, they succeed. Now then, the Dao is without root or trunk; It is without leaves or flowers. The ten thousand things are generated because of it; The ten thousand things are completed because of it. This natural order, we designate as “Dao.” Reid: 39 夫道者所以充形也, It is Dao which fills the body, 40 而人不能固。 Yet people are unable to secure it. 41 其往不復, It leaves without returning; 42 其來不舍。 It arrives without remaining; 43 謀乎莫聞其音, Strategic! No one hears its voice; 44 卒乎乃在於心, Suddden! Right away it is within your heart-mind; 45 冥冥乎不見其形, Dark and obscured! Its form cannot be seen; 46 淫淫乎與我俱生。 Immense and overflowing! It rises within all of us. 47 不見其形, We do not see its form 48 不聞其聲, We do not hear its voice 49 而序其成, Yet its sequence of development 50 謂之道。 We call “Dao” 51 凡道無所, At all times, the Dao is without a single location. 52 善心安愛, (Yet) in a heart of goodness, where tranquility is cherished, {8} 53 心靜氣理, In a peaceful heart, where the energy-breath is balanced, 54 道乃可止。 Dao may linger. 55 彼道不遠, For Dao is not far away. 56 民得以產。 When the people attain it, they are fruitful; 57 彼道不離, When Dao does not leave, 58 民因以知。 The people become knowledgeable. 59 是故卒乎其如可與索。 Thus, it is sudden! As though capturing; 60 眇眇乎其如窮無所。 Minute! As though devoid of any location. 61 被道之情, The nature of Dao 62 惡音與聲。 Is averse to clamorous noise. 63 脩心靜音, By bringing the heart to a tranquil resonance (intention), {9} 64 道乃可得。 Dao may be obtained. 65 道也者, As for Dao, 66 口之所不能言也, It is that which the mouth cannot speak of; 67 目之所不能視也, It is that which the eyes cannot see; 68 耳之所不能聽也, It is that which the ears cannot hear; 69 所以脩心而正形也。 It is that by which the heart-mind is enhanced, {10} and the body is aligned; 70 人之所失以死, It is that which, when people lose it, they die; 71 所得以生也。 It is that which, when they obtain it, they live; 72 事之所失以敗, It is that which, when endeavours lose it, they fail; 73 所得以成也。 It is that which, when they obtain it, they succeed. 74 凡 道: 無根無莖, Invariably, Dao is without root {11} and without stem; 75 無葉無榮, Without leaves and without flowers. 76 萬物以生, The myriad things are given life by it; 77 萬物以成, The myriad things are completed by it. 78 命之曰道。 On account of this, it is called “The Path” {8} In most translations, “愛 love, cherish, ai” is replaced here with “處 dwell, chu” to say “it dwells in a good heart.” {9} “音 tone” is usually replaced here again with “意 intent.” {10} “脩 dried meat used to pay teachers” is a variant of “修 study; cultivate” {11} Dao is without root because Dao is the root. Please see DDJ4, “It is older than the primordial ruler (God).”

FYI: I got The Thread of Dao text from Dan, so I will be updated the intro and chapters with his translation.

It's all good. I likely didn't share some motivation for doing the study in my Intro Thread and that's my bad. Bindi and I had been talking about doing a study on it to understand how it compares and potential influence later Inner Alchemy. I don't think everyone has to look at it from that angle. Folks should participate with their own motivations, but I can see how we may not understand another's. As I know Bindi's, I sometimes fall into some pedantic exchange as she knows (and seems TT and Apech) more about later Alchemy practices and I tend to focus on the earliest texts practices. The Neiye clearly seems to be something different from other early practices, be them breathing focused or visualization of spirits. At first, the only thing I was trying to hold back on was talking about later sections when we have not gotten there yet, but I've already seen several times, its impossible (and likely not fair) to suppress that. So I've now done what I said we shouldn't do In any case, lets all keep sharing our thoughts and have enjoyed yours too

That's an interesting question. As commentators have noted, Yin/Ying is not in the Neiye [nor Hun/Po]. I don't know I'll answer this but getting my thoughts straight so as we move forward, we can see about it. That Po is called "precelestial Original Essence" (I assume this is Jing?) seems to say that the physical [yin] body that the Po Soul resides in is based on the Original Essence. I don't take that as exclusive. Meaning they don't mention [here] whether the cosmos also is based on it as the Neiye does. But using the words "precelestial Original Essence", it sounds like the cosmic Jing I have been sensing. That Hun is contrasted as "precelestial Original Spirit" (I assume this is Shen?), makes this all seem to fit rather well between the pairs (Jing vs Shen; Po vs Hun). An issue I see is: If the quote supports an idea of Neiye early text usage of Spirit as gathered in from outside, then the quote would also support an idea that so is Jing. So it makes me want to look at a few Jing sentences: 可 以 為 精 舍 You are able to become a dwelling for essence. 精 將 自 來 And essence will naturally arrive. 精 將 至 定 Essence will arrive and settle. 精 存 自 生 Where essence exists, there is naturally life 天 出 其 精 Heaven produces their essence, So the word usage seems to suggest Jing is also acquired. I'll note here, that my idea that Spirit is externally acquired comes from Kirkland. I think this is a summary of his points: So Kirkland suggests Jing, Qi, Shen, De, and Dao as coming and going, thus externally gathered. I may be reading too much Kirkland

I talked with Dan about whether I could share his version if someone provided the translation to me and he said that was ok. So if someone wants to paste it to me, do so in PM , or let's talk. He also said folks could share his notes on using the received version, etc. People with the e-book version should make sure they've updated it to get everything I've added or re-worded over the last year or so. Best way to make sure they have the latest update is looking for the following paragraph in the intro, before the DDJ chapters appear. The following sentence will contain the 3rd footnote, and updated versions will include "… beginning with the five elemental phases" at the end of the paragraph: According to Ji Zi, King Yu was able to determine the correct solution because Heaven bestowed upon him the “洪範, 九疇, 彝倫攸敘 patterns of the flood, with its nine categories, the principles of which are expressed throughout all relations… beginning with the five elemental phases.”

So maybe a few questions to you: 1. How would you translate Shan (善) ... and what would it mean if Dao cannot stay there? Is that justmean the heart is not still and Qi not regulated (so the condition of the heart and Qi is a reference to how naturally one exists)? 凡 道 無 所 Always : Dao is nowhere to be found,善 心 安 處 But in a virtuous heart/mind [xin] it can calmly dwell.心 靜 氣 理 When the heart/mind [xin] is still and Qi is regulated,道 乃 可 止 Dao can then stay there. I think says same here: 彼 道 之 情 The nature of that Dao惡 意 與 聲 Detests thoughts and words about it.修 心 靜 意 But when you cultivate your heart/mind [xin] and still your thoughts,道 乃 可 得 Dao can then be attained. 2. So we have Ren (民) again, yet Ren (人) is in previous sections. So why differ here ? 彼 道 不 遠 That Dao is not remote : 民 得 以 產 Citizens attain it by being born. 彼 道 不 離 That Dao does not depart : 民 因 以 知 Citizens rely on it for understanding. 3. A few parts sound almost like LZ talking... but here so much is given to Dao and previously it sounds like Jing (or in LZ, De) are responsible for... so this sounds like just a high level clearance understanding that it all beings with Dao ? 凡 道 Always : Dao is無 根 無 莖 Without root, without stalk,無 葉 無 榮 Without leaves, without flowers.萬 物 以 生 By means of it the ten thousand creatures are born,萬 物 以 成 By means of it the ten thousand creatures are made complete.命 之 曰 道 This [natural] order, it is called Dao.

This is your 'air duct' reference in another thread... would be good to see a few lines translated from the other sources you found to see how that compound is treated.

Exactly... which makes it sound more like a power side of Dao... a cosmic kind of Qi or De ? But it doesn't sound like the Jing we are used to hearing about in Alchemy.

There are lines [Eno #7: Roth # 13) of the spirit coming and going but [Linnell] mentions it as understanding. 有 神 自 在 身 There exists a spirit[-like understanding] naturally located in the self – 一 往 一 來 One moment it goes, one moment it arrives; 莫 之 能 思 There is no one who can contemplate it. 失 之 必 亂 Lose it and you will certainly be confused, 得 之 必 治 Attain it and you will certainly be regulated. Hard to know yet what Linnell means... did he think this means you cannot really lose the spirit and just lose spirit-like understanding? The general understanding of Hun stays till dead... but one has to also realize HunPo is 3 Hun and Po is 7. So easy to get in the weeds on this. Maybe see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_and_po

I want to turn to Puett reading to get some more gist of the Po descending cuz he talks about the sacrifices to make the earth bound soul become an ancestor... meaning, that is a way an ancestor is a ghost and it's unclear to me, based on limited Puett reading, whether they must have this sacrificial aspect occur. So not wasted in a sense... but waiting for an ancestor to be joined to (?). the Neiye sees development as from the animal soul [Po] to a spirit [Hun]: In my previous post I mentioned in response to you, 'consolidating Qi like Spirits' and there will be many references to "spirit-like"... what Puett calls 'self-divination' as one is raising itself to be a spirit; and the Neiye appears like the spirit is something to be gathered in (from the outside). I don't want to make Puett the authority on this but he has written the most on spirits and I previously gave his publication area. There seem so many arcs going on, in a way to settle.

I meant to mention this and forgot. thanks That sub-section is about 'consolidating Qi like spirits' (Roth #19; Eno #13) and they can comprehend due to essence's Qi (translations vary). The tie I see is to a section already mentioned a few times but is in #4 when talking about the Sage: 精 也 者 This essence [Jing] –氣 之 精 者 也 Is essence [Jing] of Qi! It gets repeated, slightly differently for sages, but seems to suggest they both rely on this.

This is from Zuozhuan around 500 BC (so predates Neiye): When a man is born, (we see) in his first movements what is called the [魄] animal soul. [既生魄] After this has been produced, it is developed into what is called the [魂] spirit. By the use of things the subtle elements are multiplied, and the [魂魄] soul and spirit become strong. They go on in this way, growing in etherealness and brightness, till they become (thoroughly) spiritual and intelligent. I think the simple explanation is Hun leaves the body for heaven while the Po does not. An interesting take from this quote related to the Neiye is the development from the animal soul [Po] to a spirit [Hun]. I think we'll get to later sections that seem to suggest 'self-divination' [Puett's word when quoting Neiye sections of becoming spirit-like]. Ok, you like the four together, which I might write as: Below: Birthing [Grains] Above: Ordering [Stars] In-between: Flowing [Ghosts/Spirits] Sage: Gathering / Collecting So maybe the four are as well: Birthing, Ordering, Flowing, Gathering