dawei

I think it is not about fixation but we can't ignore its presence... what is being mentioned of Jing has to work in each case meaningfully. It may not be a realm thing: although it clearly denotes realms, it doesn't have to be the focus. We can take it meaningfully but don't have to literally. For example, even if there were 5 realms mentioned... I'd still be looking to see how Jing unifies as to its function. It may be more like one item unique to each (which I think is somewhat of Apech's point). Or like can we say, there is order, growth, intelligence in all three? That seems like I'm stretching his point but just showing the lens I'm trying to work through at first. That we get a parallel treatment but I may need to ultimately abandon it. LZ goes through a list of things that really treats each with an attribute.

Ghosts: I'm often unsure of how to take the meaning... so decided to look at Puett (publications here) , particularly COMBINING THE GHOSTS AND SPIRITS, CENTERINGTHE REALM where he quotes Confucius that I've read before and his opening words sound like something out of the Neiye. Zai Wo said: “I have heard the names ‘ghosts’ and ‘spirits’, but I do not know what they mean.” The Master said: “Qi is the flourishing of spirit; the earthly soul ( po) is the flourishing of the ghost. Combining the ghost and the spirit is the highest teaching.” I used to think in terms of Spirits were created before space-mass... so not sure whether that holds merit as 'between heaven and earth' which could be a reference to the invisible realm, but not sure of its general use in ancient times. I am sure some use it to mean the 10,000 things... though in which case I think ghosts and spirits have to be included. Star patterns may be their arrangement; their resulting generative ordering... so you say not simply grading into three realms but then mention them (sky, earth, inbetween); but you're wanting to focus on, respectively: Order, Growth, Intelligence. He does mention the Sage at the end of this opening.. but it leads me to another idea in order to preserve your idea. I wonder if the opening break should be after Ghosts/Spirits as below which might help to resolve whether Ren (citizen, people) should be there, as that would tie to the previous line using Sage: 凡 物 之 精 Always : the essence [Jing] of creatures –此 則 為 生 This then makes them live.下 生 五 穀 Below, it gives birth to the five grains;上 為 列 星 Above, it acts to arrange the stars.流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits. 藏 於 胸 中 When it collects in the center of the breast of people,謂 之 聖 人 We call them sages. 是 故 民 氣 Thus the Qi of the citizens :杲 乎 Is it bright?如 登 於 天 As though ascending to heaven.杳 乎 Is it dark and quiet?如 入 於 淵 As though entering into an abyss.綽 乎 Is it wide and spacious?如 在 於 海 As though residing in the ocean.卒 乎 Is it close?如 在 於 己 As though residing in oneself.

and how to fit in Ghosts and Spirits ? 流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits. I likely prefer, flowing amid/among heaven and earth. Flowing in the space between seems to just suggest this, so why not make it clearer. That's why I previously said that Jing comes across to me, in the opening, as somewhat cosmic. It covers forms and formless. It would seem we need a unified theory in a way to cover everything mentioned. I would not be against the idea that on a physical, form level, it is like a seed... I'm just not yet at the point of the unified explanation of Jings role with form and formless. I looked at DDJ5 where 天 地 之 間 is also used. Heshang Gong says, "The space between heaven and earth is empty and void, with one gentle energy flowing throughout" while Wang Bi says, "In the vast and empty space of Heaven and earth, all is left alone to nature." (Tr. R. Bertschinger). So these three (LZ, HSG, WB) don't suggest anything about ghosts/spirits. But from a cosmological POV, I am also trying to see how this should be understood... so I looked at my thread on cosmology (https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/32324-cosmology-in-ancient-chinese-text/) and had posted this: For now, that satisfies me regarding Neiye line on ghosts/spirits as having some basis and not altogether a misplaced idea, even if LZ doesn't really share it.

I don't think that the Neiye had the Late Middle English Dictionary... and what we want to see is how the Neiye is defining Jing. I'm not ready to call it a seed.

Just to make the above clear... here is the text: 精 也 者 This essence – 氣 之 精 者 也 Is essence of Qi! 氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life; TT's point is that while there may be a singular character for what we typically call Dao (道), he takes it as a compound with Qi (氣道) and thus calls that 'duct of Qi'. This is in Eno's section 4. I'm going to get sections 3 and 4 setup so we can read up to this as it is been raised a few times.

This was renamed to Section 2 now that I am following Eno's sections (18) instead of Roth's sections (26). There were no alterations to the section as they all had the same break. Added: There are alternations now in place to keep them parallel.

Section 2: The nature of the heart Eno: The form of the heart [xin] is Spontaneously full and replete, Spontaneously born and complete. It loses this form through care and joy, pleasure and anger, desire and profit-seeking. If are able to rid itself of care and joy, pleasure and anger, desire and profit-seeking, the heart [xin] returns to completion. The natural feelings of the heart [xin] cleave to rest and calm; Don’t trouble them, don’t derange them, and harmony will spontaneously be perfect. So gleaming! As though just beside. So dim! As though ungraspable. So remote! As though exhausting the far limit [Wuji]. Its basis is near at hand; daily we draw its force of virtue [De]. Linnell: 凡 心 之 形 Always : the form of the heart/mind [xin] is 自 充 自 盈 Naturally full, naturally overflowing, 自 生 自 成 Naturally born, naturally complete. 其 所 以 失 之 The reason that you lose it 必 以 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 Is certainly due to worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit. 能 去 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 If you can leave behind worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit, 心 乃 反 濟 Your heart/mind [xin] then returns [to its original nature] successfully. 彼 心 之 情 The nature of that heart/mind [xin] 利 安 以 寧 Benefits from calmness and the tranquility that comes from it. 勿 煩 勿 亂 Do not be troubled, do not be confused, 和 乃 自 成 And harmony is then naturally achieved. 晢 晢 乎 Is it very bright? 如 在 於 側 As though located right by your side. 忽 忽 乎 Is it very easy to overlook? 如 將 不 得 As though it will never be attained. 渺 渺 乎 Is it very remote and indistinct? 如 窮 無 極 As though utterly without boundaries [Wuji]. 此 稽 不 遠 To examine this, you need not go far : 日 用 其 德 You use De daily. Roth: -- Section 3 -- 1. All the forms of the mind [xin] 2. Are naturally infused and filled with it [the vital essence], 3. Are naturally generated and developed [because of] it. 4. It is lost 5. Inevitably because of sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire, and profit-seeking. 6. If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking, 7. Your mind [xin] will just revert to equanimity. 8. The true condition of the mind [xin] 9. Is that it finds calmness beneficial and, by it, attains repose. 10. Do not disturb it, do not disrupt it 11. And harmony will naturally develop. -- Section 4 -- 1. Clear! as though right by your side. 2. Vague! as though it will not be attained. 3. Indescribable! as though beyond the limitless [wuji]. 4. The test of this is not far off: 5. Daily we make use of its inner power [De]. Shazi Daoren: -- Section 3 -- All forms of the Heart [xin] are naturally infused, naturally filled, naturally generated, naturally completed. They can become lost, out of place Due to sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire, or profit-seeking. If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking, your Heart [xin] will return to its natural flow. The natural emotion of the Heart [xin] is beneficial calmness and tranquility. Do not vex it, do not disturb it, and harmony will naturally develop. -- Section 4 -- Clear! As though right by your side. Vague! As though it will not be attained. Indescribable! As though beyond the limitless. The proof of this is not far off [Wuji]: daily we make use of its inner power [De] Yueya: -- Section 3 -- All the forms of the heart-mind [xin] Are naturally replete and nourished by it [vital essence], Are naturally generated and grow to completion [because of] it. It is lost because of sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, and desire for profit. If you can cast off sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, and desire for profit, Your heart-mind [xin] will return to equanimity. The disposition of such a heart-mind [xin] Is that it benefits from calmness to attain repose. Do not disturb it; do not disrupt it Then harmony will naturally develop. -- Section 4 -- Clear! as though right by your side; Vague! as though it will not be attained; Indiscernible! as though beyond the limitless [Wuji] The investigation of this is not remote – Daily we make use of its inner power [De] Reid: 23 凡心之刑, Invariably, the heart-mind’s decisions {4} 24 自充自盈, Naturally occupy it, naturally fill it. 25 自生自成。 They spontaneously arise, and spontaneously ripen. 26 其所以失之, They can become wayward 27 必以憂樂喜怒欲利。 As a result of sorrow, pleasure, euphoria,{5} anger, desire, and avarice. 28 能去憂樂喜怒欲利, If you can abandon sorrow, pleasure, euphoria, anger, desire, and avarice, 29 心乃反濟。 The heart will return back to the shore (of calm and stability) {6} 30 彼心之情, It is the nature of the heart and mind 31 利安以寧, To benefit from tranquility and relaxation. 32 勿煩勿亂, Do not agitate it, do not disturb it, 33 和乃自成。 And harmony will naturally perfect it. 34 折折乎如在於側, At rest! {7} As though right at your side; 35 忽忽乎如將不得, Fleeting! Trying to snatch it, it is not obtained; 36 渺渺乎如窮無極。 Vast and Distant! It is void of all limits. 37 此稽不 遠, This investigation does not take place far off 38 日用其德。 But in the daily application of this Virtue. {4} “Xing 刑 punishment/decision” is often replaced here with “xing 形 forms” in accordance with line 103 of the Nei Ye, believing 刑 to be the typo. However, 刑 appears more consistently in related lines of the Nei Ye and Xin Shu Xia. See also, line 115-120 of the Xin Shu Xia. It could be further argued that NY103 should be changed to “xing 刑 decision” in light of this consistency and the Legalist environment in which these texts appear, where it would seem natural to impute the concept of regulations when discussing mental faculties. See Introduction: Will, Intention and Thought. {5} I have translated xi (喜) as euporia, following the lead of Elisa Rossi in “Shen: Psycho-Emotional Aspects of Chinese Medicine (2002).” I have also translated le (樂) as pleasure based on Rossi’s suggestion that the “joy” of this character is a harmonious and peaceful one related to rituals and ceremonies (the same character also means music). {6} “濟 aid; ferry across” is often replaced with “齊 evenness” by removing the radical for water {7} Zhe Zhe 折折 (at rest) is usually replaced here with zhe zhe 晢晢, meaning “bright.” The meaning of 折折, and thereby also the subsequent line (where 忽忽 fleeting/quick is usually translated as “vague,” also meaning “overlooked,” to contrast with “bright”), is revealed when 折折 is understood as “leisurely” through the following example in the Liji, Tan Gong I: 吉事，欲其折折爾... 吉事雖止，不怠... 鼎鼎爾則小人 “It is desirable that festive affairs be carried out in a leisurely way... Though festive affairs may be delayed, they should not be transacted negligently… too much ease shows a small man” (trans. Legge).

~~~ CHANGE TO THE SECTION WAS DONE ~~~ Previously I was following Roth's sections (26) but it already began to feel like it breaks up in a separate thread approach where in a book you can just keep reading. So I am changing to follow Eno's sections (18) which groups a lot more of the text. The opening post of this thread was changed to include what is Eno's section 1 with the title he uses and I'll continue to use his titles. Essentially, I moved the Section 2 translation thread to here. So now it is a mix of original Section 1 and 2. Sorry if discussion feels choppy but please re-read the page 1 and see more of the text flow together.

I'm not sure I agree in regards to the Neiye (later this seems to be the picture in alchemy though). If I said De was the [powerful] essence of Dao, that would not suggest De is the seed that Dao grows from. Unless I'm using De in a way you would not in relation to Dao.

ah... over 6,000 years ago, the dampness showed to cause health problems, and as the story goes, Dao Yin was invented: Majiayao pottery:

Internal vs external: I think the internal vs external aspect makes a distinction when one reads how it 'arrives' but I'm willing to not press it as that important at this point. I might only compare to the idea of Man's Qi vs Universal Qi vs Spirit Qi. To get Spirit Qi is likely not originating in us but it would be an interesting view to consider as it keeps us from playing duality too much with it all. Wu Wei: I mentioned in Ch. 1: rest (an 安) was considered Jing (tranquility) 安：靜也 in the ancient dictionary and may be a pointer to wu-wei concept. . . . 3. Is Jing (精), vital essence, the key to Jing (靜), tranquility , wu-wei ? Shen Dao's Shenzi (another legalist whose work has been linked more to daoism at times) where phrases show up in LZ in an altered form. Shen Dao talked of Wu Shi (無事), which has much the same meaning as wuwei (無為). My gut says an argument can be made that the Neiye espouses the later wu wei usage as shown in our section 2: Because of the use of words like naturally, return, calmness, tranquility, not troubled, not confused, harmony... naturally achieved. I think of a paper I read that paired how ziran, here as just zi (naturally) and wuwei are like two sides of a coin. Where wu wei is behavior and ziran is process. I think there is a casual link but zi (naturally) can be behavioral like if I say, "act naturally". But we mean spontaneously, I think, in the daoist sense. The Neiye being an earlier work, I would give it some flexibility as to how it may be using the same idea. De and Spirit in Alchemy: I think its fair and good to ask these questions to see how this early work relates to later usage of the word alchemy. But we have a pictures of Jing as higher than Qi (and I think will be supported more later) too. The three seem to me to not have a distinct linear relationship but we're too early in for that to be a fair comment. But so far, I see Jing as a universal, cosmic substance touching even the formless world... so it is made out to be primordial whereas Qi is first mentioned as with the people. I know that is a disputed character on some level but to just transition from comic Jing to a universal Qi doesn't make sense to me yet without shifting the cosmos to people: To move from Heaven to Earth/people. But it may be the overlap and synonymous aspect I mentioned elsewhere. It still feels to me like heart management; quiet and calm one's heart-mind and they (dao, spirit, de, etc) will 'come' (borrowing from TT).

Interesting website: Bitter Winter A MAGAZINE ON RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AND HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA A few related articles I had not heard about: Mao Zedong Worshipped as Buddha Confucius Replaces Buddha in Sinicized Chinese Temples More Than 1,200 Buddhist Statues Removed

The lines in question go as: 是 故 民 氣 - therefore / so / consequently * the people / nationality / citizen * Qi 是 故 此 氣 也 therefore / so / consequently * this * Qi * Also Two reasons, so far, I am ok with 民 staying in: 1. As TT points out above, it is not uncommon in ancient china 2. It appears as a character later, four more times. So he didn't seem to have a problem copying those times. So for me, it reads fine left in, if one does get past a clumsy use of 'citizen' and replaces 是故 with something other than 'therefore'. In the other chapter I mention I might go with, 'in the same way'. I like what Dan tried with the lines and his is more a cause-effect (as a result). My phrase them as more a parallel explanation and avoid linearity. One reason I went with this, for now, is that Jing, Qi, Dao, and De will later overlap and almost be synonymous at times. Only later when we get through most of the text will I see if I feel the same. If this is supposedly a practitioner's practice [method]... the saying 'people' would see appropriate regarding their Qi. As to DE: I think it is used differently here than say how LZ/ZZ use it. The Neiye seems to treat it as externally attained (like spirit) while I think laozi sees it as an internal property [bestowed by Dao through creation's mechanism]. Even Confucius seems to treat it more like one develops it but that it is inherent to the person like good moral character. Looking at other early legalists: Shen Dao treats De more matter of fact (The sage has De...) but sounds like moral character. Hanfeizi commentary on LZ covers a few chapters with De and chapter 38 goes as: Curious is mention of a 'lodging place' similar to the Neiye.

I was wondering that too... and my son was really pissed that the creatures could hear her blood drop while she was hiding but they couldn't sense her sneaking up.... and don't get him started on the knife drop he first used against Brienne. I think I read in an interview, she really wanted to kill Cersi... maybe using a face thing. Like pulls off a Mask of Jaime... but doesn't she realize she is a lot shorter They already shut down that idea... so go see Captain Marvel

There's talk that the Season 1 photo with the raven is an indication that Bran would be on the throne

That may be true and his method is likely not something one would question anyways. And all we have here is his translation. Folks can read some on him here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neiye My biggest concerns are: 1. In Ancient china, there are far fewer words to use and thus their meanings can be more than what meets the eye. Also, to aid in memorization, rhythm is important even if the word is not the most precise to use. 2. I have my doubts this should be considered a daoist work. It is among a mix of also Confucian and Legalist; Guanzi being a legalist by most accounts. Daoist didn't have the market on meditation (recall, John Chang claims his lineage traces to Mencius) where scores died trying to perfect that method. Shen Dao was a legalist (though some later want to classify him as daoist) known for influencing the legalist Hanfeizi. Yet, Shen Dao's work clearly finds a few phrases in the Laozi, and Hanfeizi wrote the very first commentary on the Laozi. Guanzi and Shen Dao were at the Jixia Academy in Qi where many philosophies were discussed. There was a daoist at the academy Peng Meng whom Zhuangzi shows to be a daoist by all accounts. It is also interesting to note that Sima Qian lumped, Shen Dao, Hanfezi, and Laozi together. He supported Huang-Lao which was a mix but he described the Daoist as taking the best from all the other schools. We've talked Daoism and Legalism elsewhere but the line is hard to draw at times.

As this version was raised in the Neiye thread, there is a sample for download

My grandmother had dementia similar to this. When she was still alive, we had five generations of a family... yes, we all procreated early offspring Her short term memory was gone... she was like the movie Momento; she asked the same question every few minutes. But she did not lose her long term memory. At least she remembered me. The mind-body is a fickle thing. Makes one appreciate our existence too.

I generally like your posts and appreciate your perspective and sharing of your experience/thought... but I think Spotless is more correct here; one doesn't need to 'see' Qi as it can be felt and known. I remember being in Medical Qigong clinicals and the reiki master could see and describe Qi; a yogic could explain how it felt in his hands; I could explain knowing its presence and where it was. Energy is translated by our minds to something we put in words. Much later, I have been in group experiments where we all shared what we encountered by going to a dimension or visiting a colony of beings. Or someone discovers a place and then takes people there, and then we compare what we got. What I was most surprised by was the similarities in how our minds translated to a common explanation. I could tell stories people would not believe and that is ok. It doesn't mean I"m right or wrong as it is our mental translations being tested on some level. But once one is inside the universal mind of all creatures/beings/spirits, etc... then everything is a step or a breath away. This showed me that Qi is a kind of coarse understanding of energy as there is something beyond that experience we tend to talk about in regards to Qi. I'm not sure the proper word for it, maybe just more primordial sense or shamanistic in a way but there is something much more than Qi to see. Enjoy your mountain retreat. Look forward to reading something if you care to share later.

I was going to recommend something like this. Start with legs about shoulder width and shift weight to essentially 100% to one leg and then shift it 100% to the other leg. The key is to do it very, very slowly to encourage the energy build-up and release to opposite sides. I also move the arm up on same side as the left shift. Palm up when going up and palm down when going down. Keep shoulders to wrist completely relaxed.

Dao is but a three letter word. Get over it

Can you relate the time-start of each movement... given an hour video...

Can you share the body parts most affected ?

I agree overall. And have thought more about doing the other two works, particularly if we can find an english translation.

SJ is short for Starjumper... I was busting his chops a bit. Carry on