dawei

thank you... I had to look up Specious argument... so I was right... for a moment an argument that appears good at first view but is really fallacious

The heart is the mind of the heart; the mind is heart of the mind. They are co-joined for a reason in the word.

Sounds like you created a block by visualizing incorrectly.... don't get hooked on visualizing it doesn't always mean it comes to your eyes but simply, the intention leads the energy... so the visualization should move forward whether you feel it or not. When you stop to look too long, you create a problem. Visualization is a long daoist tradition, nothing new... except in the old tradition, one visualized gods... we're replaced them with 'practices' attempting to do things.

The last topic you started with these words...

This seems a rather challenging issue for sure. My opinion is some should live and some should not; maybe they can resolve it out in their next like as some of us are likely doing now. I would not walk into a jury with any planned outcome desired. One should just see it out and then decide.

And what was destroying it prior to humans? I hope most know that the climate is/was always changing... easy to google it For the record... I'm not against climate change... it can change all it wants

You are creating two scenarios but I was talking one and the same in both cases... so I did not suggest (a) ... and (b) should be as: A + B => C = A+B+C D is a fourth level construct... or a part of the 10,000. Not sure if this pendantic evaluation and discussion is helping anyone or not

I think you just made his point... your "don't know" is the absence of knowing. Does it help if one of us said, we know what you don't know ?

By Bruce Linnell http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38585/38585-pdf/38585-pdf.pdf

Bubbles it is. Welcome back

Maybe a few zero's missing but I would agree that the years of practices doesn't seem to necessarily correlate. Likely a better goal, or first steps is to just think in terms of health improvement.

This is one of those questions much easier to ask than answer I do agree with Fa Xin that everyone kind of comes to it from their own spot (ie: what workout works for you). I've known guys who are into magic, or healing, energy, etc and they would tell you different stories... and then there are those just gifted from the start; let's ignore those show-offs Personally, I was never one to meditate. I recall one guy telling me he had meditated for 20 years and still never felt energy as I would describe to him. I don't think its that he was doing something wrong, it could just be that it wasn't in his cards. I would not say that his lifetime of meditation was a waste as I believe it was very beneficial for him in lots of other ways. But this brings up a few issues: 1. Is it in one's cards: This is kind of a destiny thing which seems more one's overall journey through lifetimes of existence. I think there is some stock in this but it is very hard to ever discern unless one finds those cards in their hand... so best to have an outlook of accepting/allowing whatever comes (and doesn't). 2. Acceptance and allowance: Part of the journey is to not get ahead of oneself as desiring an outcome is antithetical on some level. So an open heart/mind to everything/anything is a good basis. 3. Worlds and paradigms: One's mental framework may be important in the previous point of being open; thus, the smaller your world view, the smaller one's acceptance of things unseen, untouched, unfound. It doesn't mean blind acceptance but it can mean you allow something that another may say is not possible. Judgement is not necessary by allowing possibilities to be there. There should not be a boundary setup by the mind or heart. 4. Judgement and Distinctions: A less cluttered mind (and world view) is likely a good thing. The more one is caught up in distinctions, judgements, and mental straight jackets over this vs that... the harder it is to simply allow the ebb and flow of existence just be as it is (whether seen or unseen). Some require much more 'work', 'practice' and 'effort' to get to a point where they abide/reside. 5. Abide/Reside: This is an outlook that is helpful wherein one is absent and blind; This is maybe a little like Zhuangzi who talks of 'sitting in oblivion'. While this is usually taken as a form of meditation, it is [as Livia Kohl wrote in a book on the same title], 'a state where one is naturally at home in the greater universe'... 'In other words, the ideal state of oblivion creates a sense of inner peace and openness, a freedom from emotions and evaluations, success and failure, and any sort of strife.' Zhuangzi gives a everyday, practical picture: One is oblivious of the feet when the shoes are comfortable. Zhuangzi also talks of 'mind fasting' 6. Empty the mind: L. Koln cites this passage: "Unify your will and don’t listen with your ears but listen with your mind. No, don’t listen with your mind, but listen with your qi. Listening stops with the ears, the mind stops with matching [perception], but qi is empty and waits on all things. Dao gathers in emptiness alone. Emptiness is the fasting of the mind." I came out of more energy work but most of the above issues were already a natural part of who I was. When I did a form and was told to stop using the muscles and use the Qi to support the arms... and then told to stop using Qi and use the Spirit to support the arms... and then told to stop using the mind, muscles, qi, spirit and arms as an object of mastery... and didn't I already know that clouds float effortlessly; water naturally flows downward, etc. Inward and outward were not two separated ideas, but One whole. And then seen and unseen as well. I think some of these ideas may work for others. How this plays into deity or dimension visits is just a stepping stone. One may get to such stones or not... in this lifetime.

There must be at least 3 characters... maybe you want WIN_XP

Yes there are strong parallels among the three Guanzi texts... The Xin Shu makes an application to the ruler (ie: Order the heart and you can order the country). Here are translations of the two other texts mentioned... sroll down on left. http://members.ziggo.nl/kwispel/masterguan/index.htm

As there are at least 5 manuscripts for the Neiye, it is good to at least mention the translator. The above translation is much more interpretative as the word 'cultivation' does not exist in the entirety of the Neiye. It tends to read more like statements of fact. For example, here is Eno on the same sections with less interpretation: I'm not against an interpretative translation, it just means there is more than one way to interpret it. And the difference may be in the process rather than the end-game.

I didn't see the Neiye as suggesting a practice of cleansing but regulating and maintaining/calming/settling.

Curiously, I didn't find 'three' in any other ancient chinese cosmology models. Such thoughts are what lead me to explore them in these past threads: Cosmology in Ancient Chinese Text The Great one is not Dao

This kind of shows my point... now you're referencing something almost 2,000 years later. And the Neiye doesn't talk about cleansing the heart.

It is not necessarily stated as directly as that, more like: Hold fast to [the guiding principle of] One[ness].... and how to 'maintain' it. This is clearly a theme in LZ. Thus, there is self-restraint being encouraged to some degree (stay calm, unmoved, unaffected by this or that, etc). Curiously, in one part, it calls such a person a "Junzi", a confucian term to mean 'Gentleman' but likely more like 'Superior Man', maybe akin to Zhuangzi's "Real Man". The use of Spirit seems akin to the earlier concepts of 'spirits' at times and less about Qi that transform to spirit inside the body; it seems at times something acquired or brought to oneself. It is an interesting read and recommend it.

Yes there are forerunners and precursors to the modern understanding that most ultimately make reference too... but until someone actually says what they mean by 'alchemy cultivation' and date the practice they have in mind, I don't usually jump to their meaning as the Neiye. Interestingly, this early work has some commonality with Confucianism. The central role of the heart (Xin) is interesting too as that is not the emphasis in most alchemy works. The emphasis on knowing One also seems central.

By modern, I really mean anything after 1200. Most of what folks reference as daoist alchemy cultivation will be after this. A far cry from the 300 bc dating of the Laozi. And the ancient practices pre-date him by some time (depending on the stories one looks at).

Well, even water, ice, steam are three-in-one... so I won't get too pedantic on the issue if we move outside of the chapter words.

Bokenkamp's book has a translation but it is on the surviving chapters. Many other translations in the book as well at 500 pages.

Have you tried either ? Not sure it is his study but rather I think he refers to them as his teachers who guide him. Some of his stories are not unlike John Chang's. I can scan energy (and energy body level) too. Some here can. I'm not sure he has ever spelled out how a beginner would do his practice or even attempt that, how would one ? I think he might say the first step is to have a heart of surrender... he often talks of Dao Xin (heart of Dao)... is that dangerous for a beginner ? I'm just not sure what is dangerous yet as you don't spell it out... if you mean trying to seek out immortals for guidance, then I don't think that is directly what he would say. It takes guidance to attempt such guidance anyways. I guess it is not so obvious to me, as I don't see channeling and ghost contacting as I understanding him. He would have to say it plainly. If you have read him enough, he begs of the immortals as an act of surrender and they either provide guidance or not. I can't recall him talking of contact ghosts for specific help or practice. Maybe you just mean he has that ability. Some of us have that ability too but we tend to stick to direct contact with deities instead. Lower entities, ghosts, forms are just denser and can tend to be 'sticky'. Thanks for sharing some of this, we can talk in PM as needed as we don't need to share everything here.