dawei

I think his translation is trying to stay faithful to the chinese characters and meaning (as he sees it).. so consider his DDJ 5: Heaven and Earth are without bias... What a great and simple translation. But his last line is: Cannot compare to keeping quiet Very non-conventional but his notes explains why he translates Zhong (center) as quiet. I might add that his religious convictions may want to see quietism (of meditation) more than the more conventional cultivation arts others seem to translate. As long as you have the notes, it should reveal his approach and I think you'll continue to be pleased with his point of view. I think it is healthy to sometimes read a point of view we might not otherwise consider. It kind of reinforces in us what we like and don't like about translations but may also help us see the broader interpretation that exists and why it exists.

I am happy to be wrong but based on my understanding of your path, I didn't think you employ meditation or mental effort. I saw your path as more effortless arising via dreams through the chakras. I'm not sure if your asking, how to apply mental effort to your path along the lines of the quote ? Maybe you would need to define how you currently use mental effort or not. very interesting

The Yijing did not have Taiji as the most ancient character... it was Da Heng. Heng was virtually removed from all ancient texts and has forever been forgotten. One has to know that characters got replaced out due to emperor taboo name issues... they could not keep Heng as that was the emperors name... and Da was very often changed to Tai ... Ji was rarely used to replace Heng but by the development of the of Taiji, it made the most sense. see my post from years ago: https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/31887-tai-ji-太極-original-use-in-ancient-times/ So, the Yijing had the cosmology of Da Heng to 10,000 things... Same as the ancient text of Heng Xian... and Yuan Dao talk of Heng. It is all now lost to be Taiji. I'm happy to accept Taiji... but also happy to share the history of word changes. Taiji sounds much cooler too

Thanks I have that... and well worth it !

I thought you were setting up an Emptiness >> Void shift... was wondering who causes that shift in your view. But if they are different frameworks then no need to compare them too much.

Yes, so how does the aspect (void) get to a next step from emptiness? Simply the inherent potential of Dao/Emptiness ? Do you associate Dao with Emptiness or just the process that unfolds ?

This really spoke to me as I was reviewing an ancient text called Heng Xian (Primordially Before All) where it said: A Philosophical Translation of the Heng Xian Erica F. Brindley & Paul R. Goldin & Esther S. Klein Published online: 27 April 2013

Ok, I usually get rather lost in the Dzogchen stuff but that was readable after three times... so how about emptiness. I think we've had this discussion before but my cosmological brain is trying to sort out the void vs emptiness thing again. I thought in the past you defined Dao=Emptiness... kind of not Two and Not One... then void is a quasi-preliminary One with potential for movement.

Welcome Jules... rather intense avatar but intrigued by who it is ?

I was just about to post this

I was trying to point out that One as (taiji) is a later imposition. Earliest works described it differently but history is always being re-written to a degree. Added: BTW, LZ never used the word Taiji but did use Wuji once... he used Ji a few times but at least one was in replacement for the more ancient word, Heng. Even his one reference to Yin and Yang seems like a small footnote... like these ideas didn't get to great fruition and application till later.

Thanks. I thought I read somewhere else you associated Dao with emptiness so trying to get some clarification. My interests are in cosmology but this thread may be the wrong place to pursue that.

good bye

Then why ask ... just trolling? I at least gave you a serious response but you continue with what... Are you interested to understand anything about the faults in the chart ? This is a discussion forum after all.

You don't seem to care but you ask for explanations... ok. show me where Tian and Di as separate as stages in chinese cosmology, in any ancient text. I would be happy to read it and comment. Otherwise, TianDi (Heaven and Earth) seems shown as a bi-polar understanding in ancient cosmology. It is shown bi=polar with several others, like YinYang. There are about six ancient cosmologies that can be compared in ancient china. The only question I have is whether it was anciently used as mass as more a container (ie: space) and not yet as mass in the most ancient use. Do you know that Tai Yi was more anciently Da Yi? Do you even know that Tai Ji was first and most anciently referenced as Da Heng ? Your chart is simply a modernist understanding. If you don't care, that is fine.

Lin Yutang was a pioneer that seems less known among westerners. he has a translation tool that is unsurpassed: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/ His book is full of stories that you will not find anywhere else. He truly takes you back in time. As to Dan Reid. His try to share the Heshang Gong (HSG) commentary is fruitful. Previously I have only found one other that seems out of print now. I would say this on HSG: He was more focused on cultivation than most commentaries and had great insights. Curiously, it is around the same time as the Celestial Master's commentary called the Xiang'er , which is considered the 'start' of religious Daoism. See here for more info: https://books.google.com/books?id=JduzKlG7D7wC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=heshang+gong+and+celestial+masters&source=bl&ots=q3JV8TPa2u&sig=IKMwLA5yHJ3IAsYhmKygbOdxURs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNocbTyuHaAhUkiOAKHe9FBZIQ6AEIbjAI#v=onepage&q=heshang gong and celestial masters&f=false

Shall we say an Old Dog can learn new tricks ? Yes, I would keep him in mind among your list of references. Like Flowing Hands... the fluidity of a translation/transmission seems to fit with Laozi's original meaning and purpose. For this chapter, one phrase comes to mind: Less is best.

What Ilum and Steve say, is my way of saying: The subconscious is the true, inner seer and knower. The human struggle, IMO, is that we rely more and more on conscious thinking at the decline of relying on subconscious thinking and knowing. To me, this is the base Taoist message. While Laozi showed how to get there from a normal life point of view, Zhuangzi showed how to just be there.

its a curiously interesting chart but doesn't seem correct. I could explain why I feel that way but you have not explained why it is that way...

I think some more explanation is needed... if you disagree with void as Dao, or Void is same as emptiness, can you explain ? @Dwai: You said, "Out of this comes the One (Taiji)" Can you reference the oldest document that relates this? In advance... this question is a bit of a trap... I've studied daoist cosmology for a long time... so I kind of expect a certain answer that I won't agree with, but I've written here before on it... but willing to discuss it within reason

I would not alter the past.. otherwise the present and future are also completely different. Then what is the point of the idea of a destiny ? Even consider if you turned left instead of right; woke up one day a minute later; you decided on this and not that instead of that over this... everything would be different too. A lesson learned the the past guides our present and future. I don't see it the other way around as useful to ponder. JMO.

That last line was a binary comment... were you just pulling our collective legs ? If yes, that is binary... if no, that is binary. I think I have fallen into a binary bait ! Interesting topic by the way... (yes, that is binary comment).

The Laozi is full of such examples... soft conquers hard, etc... The one really etched in chinese thinking comes from chapter 58 and sometimes called the Taoist Farmer: The paradox effect is to show that things are not just black and white but two seemingly opposing sides that are really just part of a whole, and you can even find the opposite in each other... Seems this came up in the Yin Yang symbol and why that is a good visual example. I think in other traditions it is like: Form=Void

I've said it else where... drop duality thinking... just see a spectrum... for visual purposes, it can be horizontal. Although realize chinese is vertical. Wu Wei is not doing nothing... it is realizing the spectrum of duality is singularly living without intention of cause due to a place on the spectrum.

secrets are necessary by definition. If you speak the word/concept, it manifests.