dawei

Here is your garden variety pond to splash around in http://www.thedaobums.com/forum/512-aussietrees/

Dao is not akin to space... but space is akin to moving beyond form. So Dao is not beyond form ? Dao is more like blackboard (form) that the 'chalk' emerges from? I'm still not following this

yes, I decided not to note that.. but good someone did

You have said much that I want to ask 1. Many are said in this section to have 'attained Dao'. How would you define or describe what that means? 2. You said ZZ was not mystical. I think most say he was more mystical and LZ was more earthly. How would you describe the two of them in some detail? 3. Can you give LZ verses on obtaining enlightenment? If this is asking too much here, we can maybe make it a separate thread. 4. you said: "Shamans and Holymen are very much a part of ZS's writings, although he appears to think that the purer cultivator in his estimation came from those that studied true internal cultivation." This seems a separate topic but I have to ask: In that time period of 300 BC, what was 'internal cultivation' ? How do you see the difference between Shamans and Holymen? 5. Can you explain 'Star Cultivation' more ? Maybe we should create another topic but this is something I have encountered over and over in my interest in Daoist cosmology.

My argument is that ALL of my bathrooms have no windows I see something in this: the 'openings as empty space to interior empty space' seems interesting It may be like a finger pointing to the moon... wonder if that is meant or just, ANY space is 'as above, so below'. The issues seems to just be a juxtaposition of space vs mass.. and why space is primary. Is Dao akin to space ?

In short: "The Five" are distractions from Dao. The five colours are represented by, red, green, yellow, black, white, and match up with the elements of, fire, wood, earth, water, metal, the organs of, heart, liver, spleen, kidneys, lungs, the facial organs of, tongue, eyes, mouth, ears, nose, and the aspects of the mind of, consciousness, yang spirit, intention, will, yin spirit. The five tones are: C, D, E, G, and A. The five flavors are: sweet sour salt bitter spicy

For arguments sake I'll accept that doors and windows are symbols of 'openings to the space' in question. In this vein, we can accept that bathrooms rarely have windows but are useful... but it is the [empty space] opening itself as an archetype of the interior empty space in question. In this sense, the 'openings as empty space to interior empty space' seems interesting. Ni's last line, an elucidation and not a strict translation, goes: "The substance of your body is enlivened by maintaining the part of you that is unoccupied."

I agree that this is deep and interesting... so adding a few more. See original post #1.

Getting back to this... here are the references to 'shamans' based on Watson's translation:

I keep moving around computers and likely don't have his current version on the one I posted. I've just added his updated version based on this computer Added Flowing Hands Also updated the last few chapters just added.

I'll drink to that

Please correct me, but Tai Ji is taught as what to do while on your feet... when you are on your back... that is a street brawl. That is why wrestlers tend to excel in MMA.

In context meant, Eva Wong said it. I'd want to see further explanation before I said ZZ saw them unfavorably but that wouldn't surprise me as you would need to show me anything he saw as favorably. Re-reading your post, you mentioned the 'dance'. This may be the Pace of Yu. I mentioned that here: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/38613-3-the-xia-dynasty-2100-%E2%80%93-1600-bc/?hl=pace With a link to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yubu Your point of static vs dynamic is noted and known. Maybe I'm still missing what is your point. I think these are just movement related as the ten thousand move and yet come from Dao which is unmoved.

please re-state reason 5. I have no idea. But in context, why do shamans care about the North Star/Polaris? I would be interested to hear Flowing Hands on this. Xi Wang Mu is the goddess over Kunlun. You should ask her. Or I can ask her.

water, water, water... this is not about water... but what is within. Don't focus on the first three lines but the last two lines. As usual, LZ starts with a basic idea but ends with an application.

What defines 'risk' ?

First appears in ZZ http://ctext.org/daoism?searchu=%E7%9C%9F%E4%BA%BA Translator is Legge.

"with conditions" is a step towards honest discussions

There is some verse I've seen translated from the Zhuangzi that paraphrases as: When the universe was born, I was born. Remaining present is in the present. I agree with your thought here. But, IMO, realizing and residing in the ever-present is outside of illusion and prisons.

Shady, Nice topic Lots of great comments... here are mine. We are inescapably tied to belief as long as we're thinking or expressing anything; That is the whole point of DDJ1:1. IMO, the distinction of 'faith' still falls within the mind of thinking or expressing. So, if we're in the [prison of the] mind in day to day stuff... belief is in every pore of the body. If we want to define non-doing or non-grasping, that is our mental explanation and thus within expressing and still a prisoner. IMO, only in the actual state of residing that is beyond mind and thought or expression can we... ... get behind the curtain. But to talk of a user and curtain is to be expressing.... The Dao that can be thought or expressed is not the eternal Dao. The mind that is thinking or expressing is not the universal/collective mind. The challenge may be in thinking of Dao on different levels. But if you truly get that, then just substitute mind and your along the path of true understanding of Dao... of mind.

Your candidness is to be commended. I like reading such streaming thoughts as it share a lot. You seem to try and mix and match physical vs supernatural as if they are two separate parts. This occurs when one is simply in one part but realizes there seems to be another separate part. My short comment would be that they are together separated by the mind based on where what the mind is aware of, or resides in; because we tend to separate the mind as well. Your seeking and perception of such things is good as it is a sign of a 'pull' along a path; and part of that process usually is trying to find that right path; in the sense that one believes there is a right path. I can't explain much beyond the mind or physical evidence because you are asking for physical evidence that exists beyond the physical. This is a kind of logic trap. I would recommend a sort of reboot on beliefs: Accept; Allow; Be Unbound. Let go of all of the ideas that are asking questions and start with a singular concept that everything is One, and that the mind in the physical awareness will create the breakdown as separate parts. See it all together, including the body and mind and galaxies and beyond.

I think Michael's explanation is good. If you wanted to read more on the North Star and its ancient recognition, I've written some here: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/32324-cosmology-in-ancient-chinese-text/?hl=allen#entry489961 http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/18957-the-water-book-taiyi-sheng-shui-太一生水/?p=267229

Maybe you've shared it elsewhere here but what is your goal or destination or hope of outcome... or what do you call a path and where is it leading? Is it to have a more philosophical base, a spiritual base, an energetic practice, an energetic exchange (transmission vs reception), a deity recognition, etc ? In the end, there is 'doing' and non-doing' they are two sides of a coin but until you see both sides as one and the same, then you are usually on the side you're seeking is on.

I recall we both like 'efficacious' but Power just seems.. well...more powerful a statement

I maybe just view it more like a buffet... Why should I question the inclusion of something I'll never eat but not question the inclusion of things I want to eat. Seems in both cases (ie: Forum or buffet), folks go there for some specific things but rarely eat every single dish being offered. I find I'm eating less and less here but I don't question why all the other areas are less value for others.