ion

Nothing deserves praise, not enlightenment, not tao. If tao is praised then its a God. All things being integral and equal why should one thing be exalted above another? Thats an immediate imbalance. The nature of tao is to harmonize and bring to equalibrium.

Isn't this why its no big deal? Why is it a big deal?

Interesting that if someone mentions that they like your work they can also go unscathed even though they also went off topic. The forum that you posted this thread in is called Taoist discussion and the thread is called Yin Yang and the ten thousand things. Givven those facts, what exactly did you expect people to talk abouut? Maybe this thread should be moved to an appropriate location. I will say that you seem to be a talented design technician. The fact that you hop on anyone who didnt first mention how they like your paintings but instead started discussing the concept implied by the title and the "taoist discussion forum" is why I say design technician instead of artist. Personally I dont find that art design creativity and talent are all parts of the same hole. You don't need to be talented to be an artist, but creativity is a key element. Instead of expressing a narrow over technical mind, you could have taken the oppurtunity to discuss the connection from the title which implies the generative force of the universe and the creation of the forless elements of existance whos interplay created form from nonexistance to your paintings? Does the title of the thread have anything to do with your paintings? If so why not discuss that instead of telling others to start a new thread? Why not just relate what they were saying and asking to your work if the thread title has any relation to the paintings? Or are you just trying to get your stuff associated with a Taoist image? So far Im feeling that its just image because not only do I not see the connection to your stuff and the primordial composites of non-existance and the creative forces issuig forth.from and of their/its interplay/inversion, but I dont feel like your expression, verbal or artistic represent an understanding of Tao simply because of your lack of accomidations and the nerve of actually suggesting that your viewers go do something (start another thread (of the same title?). I dont recall reading a disclaimer in the OP where in you explained that this confusingly titled thread and misplaced location in the "taoist discussion" forum is actually for the sake of focussing on you...or maybe I just missed it

My thoughts are that awareness doesnt belong to the self. It preexist the individuality that it is subject to. Eventually a one becomes aware of, or rather conceptualizes an idea of self and proceeds to conceptualize that the self that it believes it is has a life and is livving it. Eventually the concept of self conceptualizes that is expering death. Does that awareness trancend death? I believe so. Not being dependent on form for existance the awareness that we believe we (we meaning the conceptualized selfs)experience and call self is not ego, not product of ego, and not dependent on or confined to the senses of human experience which are the basic parameters of ego. It is the developed concept called ego that believes it is aware, and aware through the senses and it's thoughts that the ego thinks it has awareness. I think there for I am??? I think not. I am aware of thoughts and thought process though I have none of my own. Thoughts are redundant and unoriginal, they are not the maker of my existance. I experience therefore I am??? I believe that I observe an experience, therefore I am; iam the inevidable by product of having an itemizing human mind which discerned the concept of self and other and therefore is. What it is a a relative term, the by product of realizing other. What is true self? Is it something the ego concept has? I dont believe so. I think true self is not "self" but what others percieve as my ego. The I that is, and experiences life outside of my awareness of my own experience is the I that others see and experience. My communicative primate body was designed to be a part of a group and its looks and appearence are for them, and I exist as a seperate entity within each of there awareness and subject to their developed conceptulized ego relative to their perception and concept of me. There is no seat of consciousness where the I truly exists, No consciousness that is developed indepenedent of the experience of others. Mistaking an ego for a self is like mistaking the shine for the apple. The shine is a reflection; the ego is a reflection of the time and space it is aware of an experience within. The ego is more a reflection of others past present and future then it is of the "self" and its experiences. What happens to awareness when the body dies??? It continues and experiences the bliss of lacking discomforts associated with a temporal form. It identifies with the bliss and develops an ego and suffers the anxiety of having an ego and its obligations reponsibilities and pains that only an ego concieves. It goes from life and unity with the everpresent heaven of egoless awareness to suffering hell for infinity. How does awareness percieve of infinity? By ceasing to be aware of "time" one experiences infinity and is reborn on earth from its self created hell. What did you say the point of meditaion is? It is the process of finding the original position of awareness. Focussed without focussing. Un distracted by impulses and habitual tensions relative to habitual thoughts. It is to not identify with the redundant process of mind that are dependent on materiel. It is to cease identification with consciousness, and the consciousness and its thoughts that arise from triggers within a consciousness and its thoughts. When a person is eating, should they get up and do the dishes before they are done? Neither should we be distracted by impulses or thoughts of obligations when we are just sitting. When we think of others, we might as well think of ourself as one of them because it is no more us then we are.

Inspiration- Can you have it without having to be inspired? Does it have to acompany desire and rise like a consciousness or can it just be had without attatchment? What is it really?

I was asking because I was wondering about it this morning and came to an idea and wondered what others would think. I was wondering what it was that gives us drive. I wasn't feeling like doing anything today and yesterday more so. The thought occured that I was un inspired and it got me wondering about drive. Do we have to want something to have drive? Is that inspiration, is it vitality that is under the control of desire? everytime I try to settle on something I am unsure and that makes me wonder what the feeling of inspiration really is or if it is many things. I thought maybe if you revere life and people, admire love, harmony and peace you might feel that energy we call inspiration without being driven to do anything in particular, or you might feel inspired to do something when something was required but I havn't settled on anything yet. Is it the byproduct of attention/focus, is it just something that happens when your already doing something? Sometimes I feel inspired when I feel loved or like and it just makes you want to do something. Sometimes I am hungry, but dont feel inspired to prepare food so I don't eat. Sometimes I feel inspired to cook and may or may not eat. Is inspiration the name we give to creative energy, and is the lack of inspiration really just that energy being blocked. Do we even need to want to create to feel that energy, do we have to feel inspired to be inspired? Is it the attatchment to the idea of being inspired that causes that energy to only respond to desire and things?

That left me feeling upset. It is possable that I have been projecting hostility onto some post that were directed at me and I have been getting defensive. As far as dismissing the claim instead of adressing it legitamately, that was a poor action on my part but, as I said I am used to hostility and may have been defensive when I should not have been. Hopefully in this post I can do so with my response. Peace-

Nothing inherently "wrong", with ego but it is the source of the string of dependencies that have humanity on the verge of self distruction. An insustainable culture is one that operates by egotistical excentuation and permanent culture is one that operates on principles of selflessness. "heaven and earth are everlasting because they do not live for or of themselves" and so are permanent cultures everlasting because they do not live for or of themselves. Its the identification and grasping after which solidifies dualistic tendencies, and this is the basic cause of life's perceived miseries. Identifying with is to associate to the self and in away consider the associated object as a composite to your identity. Identification and grasping are actions and pursuits of the egotisticly excentuated state which is why I pointed out that that our societies require a mass of people in excentuated egotistical states. Where would your society be if it wasnt for desire and the pursuit to fullfill the desire, without grasping after the intangible. That is the fuel onwhich the world runs. Where would there be a war if there weren't a point of view? Do you really see the need to tone down anything? If so, a person who sees this way is still trapped in functioning on a dualistic level. This is the common idea of modern day guru's who make a livving off of telling certain people what they want to hear. According to you, there should not be anything to subtract, right? According to me, my past in real life and on this forum there is nothing to learn, nothing to assimilate, ALL there is to do IS subtract.

Nothing inherently "wrong", with ego but it is the source of the string of dependencies that have humanity on the verge of self distruction. An insustainable culture is one that operates by egotistical excentuation and permanent culture is one that operates on principles of selflessness. "heaven and earth are everlasting because they do not live for or of themselves" and so are permanent cultures everlasting because they do not live for or of themselves. Its the identification and grasping after which solidifies dualistic tendencies, and this is the basic cause of life's perceived miseries. Identifying with is to associate to the self and in away consider the associated object as a composite to your identity. Identification and grasping are actions and pursuits of the egotisticly excentuated state which is why I pointed out that that our societies require a mass of people in excentuated egotistical states. Where would your society be if it wasnt for desire and the pursuit to fullfill the desire, without grasping after the intangible. That is the fuel onwhich the world runs. Where would there be a war if there weren't a point of view? Do you really see the need to tone down anything? If so, a person who sees this way is still trapped in functioning on a dualistic level. This is the common idea of modern day guru's who make a livving off of telling certain people what they want to hear. According to you, there should not be anything to subtract, right? According to me, my past in real life and on this forum there is nothing to learn, nothing to assimilate, ALL there is todo IS subtract.

I would say the begining of non-dual perception is something we are born with but that dual perception is very much a byproduct of conceptualizing the self. Self, is a concept that seems inevidable that we all end up grasping and holding onto. I think it is from there that the percieved duality really takes root because after the concept of self is integrated and exentuated through various modes all aspects of a selfs experience are trangulated through duality and associated to the self. I think that there are various levels of duality in perception and that some are more under its influence then others and you can definitely make it apart of your practice to see things more wholey, and that sort of life style does put the ego in check. Is that part of what you're post was asking? The ego can be turned up and down. Our society though seems to be bent on fixing it in its most excentuated position. Even the way people talk always prompting eachother to say yes or no, or to make concrete decisions or statements all the time. The stress's each of us face with rent, bills, the general cost of living in an indusrialized society excentuate the egotistical disposition. OUr kinship ties and economy excentuate the ego in all of us. Whether you are about to loose your house and car or whether you got all your bills payed, the ritual of doing so excentuates the ego. People are constantly thinking about what they have to do-"I gotta wake up early tomorrow. I have to go to work. I haveto get gas. I have to pay the bills or I wont have food or a place to live and then I'll be constantly thinking of what I have to do." Stresses, obligations, pleasures, privalages they all sustain the ego and duality. There are definitely things that exentuate the ego and duality, and there are definitley ways of toning them down which usually revolve around subtracting things from our lives which takes discapline and faith. I almost feel like I misunderstood your post though so if I did, feel free to clarify.

In the begining was the word, and the word was "nothing" as it stretched through the darkness, and brought forth the light. Awareness has its root in stillness. Stillness has its root in the principle of eternity. Stillness is aware and is self aware. The awareness of stillness is the root and foundation of all consciousness. Awareness has its root in action. Action has its root in the principle of eternity but comes from stillness. Action is aware and is self aware. The awareness of action is near the root, and in the foundation of all consciousness. Awareness has its root in symmetry. Symmetry bares the imprint of eternity and has its root in stillness and action. Symmetry is aware and self aware. The awareness of symmetry is near the root, and in the foundation of all consiousness. Awareness has its root in activity. Activity bares the imprint of eternity and has its root in symmetry. Activity is aware and self aware, it is near the root, and in the foundation of all consciousness. The collective awareness of these is aware, and has self awareness. The collective awareness bares the imprint of eternity and of the negative and posotive principles of stillness and action. The self awareness of the collective awareness percieves within itself order, and the potential for order, and within itself (non-exsitance) it percieves existance and the potential for existance (space and form). Existence is within the perception of the collective awareness of non-existance. The creator has its root in awareness and is an aspect of non-existance, and not the creator of non-extstance, but is the creator to consciousness within existance, and within existance its spirit ismade a god. Anything that exist is a concept to the trancending awareness. If what exist has objective reality or not, to the consciouss it is subjective, experienced and integrated as a subjective concept. Life and livving are relative conepts experienced by awareness. Death is a concept to awareness, awareness conceptualizes its experience and then trancends. Within existance, physical things have their reality, numbers have their places. Within awareness, physical existance has no reality and is experienced as concept. To trancending awareness, god and gods are principles and concepts, self is a concept, collective is a concept, and none have any reality.

(That last remark about the origins pouring out from within the fabric.... dont you think that's a bit too abstract, no? I think it is fairly direct. Take what we call the future. We have to travel there to get from now to then, Yeah? The universe was not created at a place and is already in the future, existance isn't there yet...just probability and potentiel. What is there is the feminine principle,Nothingness, stillness- the fabric of reality and the foundation of existance, yet it is not active because the active principle of the future is the now and the now isn't there yet. For the sake of illustration, the path of Tao that creates existence from nonexitence springs out of every point of every moment past present and future. The moment the now, existance is created from the past present and future and from every point concievable, where ever there is nothing the tao at once issues forth, The dzogchen practice sounds a little like what I was saying about awareness, that it is the thing that connects us with everything wheter it be the begining of time, the feminine principle or the male principle or an emotion. Its about getting to the core of anything, to see through the feminine and male principles to find that they are neither male or female and there nature is nothingness and the Tao passes right trhough them. I'm not sure if this is what you are saying, that because ecstacy and despair are extremities of the same concept that to be at the core is to experience neiter? I'll have to look up the practice you are refereing to at some point, I have not heard of it but it sounds interesting. I bring up the m & f principles because when describing the tao in action and activity it because it them that the Tao, as a way and path is easiest to discern. The Tao is the path that flows through them, so to follow the Tao with mind is to come to understand the principles that give rise in its wake. It is by the awareness of nothingness that I began to understand Tao as an emulatable way. I am begining to understand that by refering to the terms male and female that it sounds like that is what I'm talking about.

It is my understanding that awareness is not dependent on anything, and that consciousness is dependent on what it is conscious of. Consciousness is dependent on experience and other things. Take meditation for example... The goal is that you gain control and there is no more arising of consciousness in your awareness. Another important point someone made one time was that everything is mind, consciousness is subjection of mind. Consciousness is transient, it can be transient in life, and most certainly is at the end of it. Awareness is not, awareness is the field of all consciousness. Bliss is dependent on consciousness. The ego in each of us is a consciousness. What is your understanding that shows I have it backwards?

One night, years ago I was in the city at night. It was raining and I was drinking 40oz.ers by myself. I took cover in the entrance way of a building that was blocked by a piece of scafolding and sat down to drink the beer. In front of me was my reflection, dark in the plexiglass window, dark but it was there. The rain drizzled all around me. A thought occured, just like I see my reflection in the building, each of the drops of water falling around me had a reflection of me, because water reflects. I envisioned that each drop was reflecting an image of me and as it fell it the reflection would rise up the drop, but it would all happen so fast. A thought occured that it was like that with people, they all see you from their own position, and disposition and to each of them you are a different person because of their relative position. That to each person any person appears different. A thought occured, nobody knows what I really look like, so niether do I and it doesnt really matter. There is no "I", to me or "you" to them, just reflections...

To want to see people unite and connect and be free you do need to foster an impersonal love. That will lead to compassion. People who aren't on the path need love. Not loving leads to division. Regardless of your religious beliefs about the eternal nature of your soul, it is important tounderstand the parameters of your existence. We are primates, but very complexones with complex emotions. Primates will die from parasitization if they dont have other primates around to groom them. They can be covered in tics that would've otherwise been picked of and eaten by another group member. People who have healthy social bonds and are close with a group of people emotionaly groom eachother. If you love people and others love you then you laugh with people, and cry for people, you get exited for people and have pride in other people. Besides cultivating selflessness and selfless thoughts and pride, the reason this is important to the individual is that as primates we are designed to be physologicly connected to other humans via the emotional complex. Neurons can get dirty, they call it toxification and in a healthy human neurons "clean themselves" during emotional spells and episodes. If you love other people and laugh hard with them your neurons detoxify their overloaded cellmembranes. If you lovesome one and cry for them your neurons will clean themselves. People in a competitive divided society will naturaly form looser social bonds, and in time the generations drift further apart. Nowadays a lot of people have toxified neurons and subconsciouslly seek out what have been come to be known as "toxic relationships/environments", subconsciously seeking out relationships with people or things that will more then likely be the cause of emotional outburst after emotional out burst. People get into relationships where they will become attatched to someone but never form any healthy bonds, the relationship is often times codependent at least on one end and synthesizes posotive emotions through sex or drugs but usually leads to huge fights and severe emotional outburst after which the neural network has been "washed" and detoxified to some degree. Better for those who are not on the path to seek healthy relationships and let love flow through them along with sadness, yet not to seek out bliss or fullfillment in one thing. For anyone on the path you'll avoid deep personal relationships. Compassion will allow you to cry with others, and compasssion will allow you to laugh with others.

I was thinking about this this morning. If out of this thread there was anything to convey, it would be that awareness is our direct connection to the center of all universes. Because awareness is non physiological, but interrelated to the physiological, awareness is then the direct path to the begining of beginings. What this means to any individual is that by understanding what you are doing when you relax your body, clear your thoughts, and embrace stillness and become aware of nothing then you are fusing with the awareness of the begining, and your mind is with the mind of the original feminine principle. There is no such thing as exact position, and in the non-physological realm if an awareness has a twin they are the same and ocupy the same "sapce", regardless of position in the physological. Because the orgins of all things pour out from within the fabric that contains time, there is no place that time began. The stillness of the begining is everywhere within every stich and moment, one does not need to go somewhere to return to the source.

Why? I understand the meaning of the cliche but how do you apply it to this?

Consciousness is transient. Awareness to wich consciousness is dependant is not transient.

Thank you for the well wishes. The above post was a response to deci belles assumptions as to the implications and meaning of my previous posts. It is not out there or complex. In the face of held notions that are fixations on realizations, such as "everything just is and nothing has any orgins" the Tao of creation encompasses that realization and explains its being as the passive reality, yet each dimmension had its actualization, and that is what the Tao of creation elucidates. Just as awareness is and always was, yet one awareness multiplies and other awareness arise. My being, this incarnation, this existence has an, orgin. The awareness of this incarnation that is me has an orgin, so does the entire phenomenon of awareness have its orgin.

Thank you for the well wishes. The above post was a response to deci belles assumptions as to the implications and meaning of my previous posts. It is not out there or complex. In the face of held notions that are fixations on realizations, such as "everything just is and nothing has any orgins" the Tao of creation encompasses that realization and explains its being as the passive reality, yet each dimmension had its actualization, and that is what the Tao of creation elucidates. Just as awareness is and always was, yet one awareness multiplies and other awareness arise. My being, this incarnation, this existence has an, orgin. The awareness of this incarnation that is me has an orgin, so does the entire phenomenon of awareness have its orgin.

I never claimed any such things. In this exact thread I responded to you On onother page of this thread I responded to a less contrived version of the same statement with- Dont you realize to tease somone for things they have not done, and to project the contents of your mind on them as to laugh mockingly is to be like laughing at your self. Even more so now this other part of my earlier response more aplicable.

There no discriminations between good habits and bad habits I agree. People discriminate Te, and call it good. Then they emulate what they label as good. Immitations of virtuous acts vs. emmulations of Tao. Virtue in the sense of Te are the uncontrived, spontaneous actions of a selfless nature. The more selflessness is succesfully cultivated, the more potential for exhibiting "virtue" is gained. Right action naturaly unfolds from a selfless nature. Te derived from selflessness is objectively great in any situation it is applied. Compared to any move that can be made the selfless act is always the greatest.

True virtue is objective. Virtue is a label, but what we label as virtuous is the complex acts, responses etc that are dependent on a selflessness nature, that spontaneously happen in an immediate situation. Selflessness and its dependants are objectively "great" in all situations they are applied to. Contrived,virtue, literally acting out virtue- when people "do" acts of kindness because of a moral code, or for the sake of religion is no better then anyother ritual. Imatations of virtue vs. spontaneous emulations of Tao.