ion

Words and deeds are ultimately empty of self nature, seeing them as such is the middle way. The most expedient and skillfull means avoids deeds, actions and activities due to the irrevocable of their mutually dependent Karmic obligations. We've all read Zen stories where the disciple becomes enlightened at the utterance of their Master, yet we've read the words countless times ourselves, and to us its just something else to contemplate. The words are without nature or meaning. To say they are or do is to make an icon from them, a religion, and religion is not the most expedient means for the salvation of the world or the individual. Thats not to say the stories are false, but that the words carry characteristics of the conditions that caused their being said, and the enlightenment of the disciple was also an interdependent occurance dependent on unique conditions, both of which have no meaining, causality, or self nature particularly outside of its one time occurrence/context.

the middle path is not about making compromises between extremities. It's about not seeing extremities by not labeling or conceptualizing things. its simple; by conceptualizing good and making an icon of it whatever doesnt live up to that standard is bad by default, and so things are not labeled, and extremities never give rise nor do entanglements. the middle path is exposed when a person notices the dependent-origination of things and that because of the dependent origination of things no thong has self nature, or any nature so no things can accurately bare the nature of any conceptualized dualistic label such as good or evil taisie or gross or anything and its conceptual opposite.

How do you mean, and obviously thoughts do not think themselves, have you ever even heard a person imply that thoughts think thoughts for a person to think? I hope that does not sound condesending that is not the intention. Consciousness operate by a certain format, just as anything in life. Even the Tao Te Ching the title means, the "way of changes"repeat way. I think that just as when an objectfalls within the visual field and a consciousness arises dependent on the object, so also within the mind. It is the holding of self concept within mind that causes most mental clutter. when we have calmed the body and quieted the mind yet still not quiet We hold inwardly with attention. So long as the attention is on self ,a consciousness is present and so thoughts arise. I also tend to think there is a connection between breath and thought. Slow breath, slow thought; hold thought/no thought, breath will also hold. Also heart beat and thought. Although I do believe in the mutual arising of things and interdependent origination, I do not think a thought births a thought, they are just connected because that is the way of changes Hello Manitou You are a very intelligent and thoughtful person and I always enjoy reading your contributoins. I think you are pretty much correct there. That makes perfect sense that "here "would be different then "there" as with all things. I do believe that peoples intuitive response would differ, but the word difference is so cut and dry, black and white. Difference implies so much. It is my opinion that intuition is non linear, a product and aspect of a particular moment and environment whose activation requires little to absolutely no interference by hesitation. It arises as it does because there is no time to think; intuition is immediate and requires immediate attentiveness to it's follow through. I would be more inclined to say that however powerful intuitive actions are when carried out, they are also very fragile and so the only point where I quasi-disagree with you is about the filters. I do believe that in any given group bound by social bonds or through the route of member identification, that this is a case of at least a partially formed collective -one mind, and that this one mind is like a pond, the thoughts are as fish swimming through the pond ie they drift freely through all minds except where filters are concerned, and also that the expression of the thought is a reflection of the filters. Filters also likely keep thoughts out of one mind and stuck in another, but intuition I believe is different. It is more of a summary then an idea. Therefore I would say that two people sharing one moment who were driven to intuitive action would have relative intuition to the stimuli or situation. Intuition is of the moment and environment. If one person is acting intuitively or a intuitive impulse is forming within them, the other persons intuition will be aware of that for lack of better terminology and would form in relation to the other intuitive formation as an aspect of the environment, this would also cause the other intuitive formation to respond relatively to the second which was already forming in such a matter so that when executed, one does not jumble the other Now; are you thinking what I am thinking? Although the self certainly does impose limitations on mind, the mind has its own limitations due to its physiological connection to the encephalon and central nervous system. Again anything is possible but only in it's time and place..Just as Jesus who was given power over all things, when tempted during his meditation in the wilderness to cast himself from a cliff to prove, and just because he is or was the son of God, he responded that it was nt good to tempt the lord your God Nature has a way, and it follows itself. As I have mentioned I am one who sees and believes the mutual arising of things, and the dependent origination of a thing. You can not step out of that matrix and expect universal reality which is on due course and dependent on things being in a natural position to just stop, fuck the world and bend over backward for you or me; that is the ultimate ego-centric self indulgence All things have their time and place which are the appropriate positions for those conditions. One who has advanced along the path far enough to know he is not a separate entity divided and apart from his surroundings would never even consider that he could do with his mind what he will. LOL! Conditions are the agent that cause causes, just as intention is action, and physiological action is both an extension of the action and an aspect of the activity, conditions are like intentions that they cause action/causation. One can not cause an effect when the conditions for both cause and effect are neither present nor ripe. There are very much limitations placed on mind by that exact thing, mutual arising and interdependent origination, you may not even get the urge to do something unless conditions were present for the thought/urge. The mind when perfected is full of emptiness so still it becomes a reflection. The perfected mind is not full and active looking to take action independently.. Your final question concerns me for you...are you serious when you ask "Why bother to meditate or 'practice' anything? Your choice of beliefs already pre-cludes your liberation." To the statements abuout beliefs yes and no. If it were true that beliefs were a limitation, I can speak for myself when I say, I would still be a lost child of the world, like wise will a christian gain a soul and go to heaven or hell when they die just because they believed that?. You cant say that they would attain to the originless or Nibbana and just call that heaven and God because to do so is to impose a world of duality on th non-dual. It is not possable to tdo that. Even to so much as feel and call or compare, liken or suggest that Nibbana is blis; to just even so much as recognise it as bliss is to lose it completely. And that there in is also the answer to "why we bother"to practice dhyana. At the very least it is tto prepare us to let go of the relative existence to be able to merge when it is time to merge. This can be now while we live, or at the time that the body has died. Simple attachment, intentions beliefs impulses habbits addictions and other stuff can quite easily jam up a persons death or segue into an enlightened state; and so we sit still and practice dhyana. Another reason is that it is when the mind is empty, or shall I say when we have no-mind and we have come to stillness, in this state there is no Karmic accumulation, walk around and you accumulate karma. Chop wood ;accumulate karma. Sit still with no-mind, break free of karma. When we sit in no-mind. More so, chop wood stack wood walk around hurt back add tension to muscles. Musceltension potentiates stress and habitual tension which facilitates lethargy, aches and mood swings. The idea with dhyana is we want to become utterly relaxed, calmed and still. We dont want to breath heavy throwing a maul over the shoulder, we don't want to do as I had done in february loading a 150lb douglas fir round in the back of your rig for firewood and dislocate your pelvic bone laying on the ground for two weeks while caring for 2 children. Chopping wood made me disabled and unable to practice sitting dhyana for about 6 months in which time everything was cool for a month or two despite not working due to an injury, but after two months it was apparent I had not sat with dhyana and shit became like normal American household it was insanity! And this is a nother reason. Tension and anxiety are habitual. Before Dhyana I sat at the computer like so . the certain areas housing the habitual tension would become tense and my posture would contort. Every so often I would become self aware/self conscious realizing that my chin was way up and my neck shooting forward, my shoulders pulledpulled up and in towards my ears, and of course an akward spine. That is tension and due to my own sensitivities I get bad tension. Also I have been cutting, chopping and stacking wood through out my life and this has never aided or benifited that situation at all. I have hurt muscles tendons back ribs and shoulders throwing a maul; I will say that I do quite enjoy the aquisition and making and burning of good seasoned madrone though, it is a very satisfying feeling, but not quite meditationcan you integrate aspects of meditation into wood chopping yes absolutely. Is it then meditation? Not at all. So there is that habitual tension that manifes as a contorted body that when relaxed ,aches. Now lets say I am sitting at the computer all contorte4d and misshaped as I sit and argue with zen Buddhists on face book (jk )in this contorted shape, there is a pool of latent anxiety within me. Little things about the computer, like, it is jamming up and moving too slow cause a percolation of anxiety it goes up and pours down over me, but even if the Buddhist Im arguing with is using passive agressive tactics to make me angry and more anxiety spouts a plume from the pool that washes on me, and my son through himself at my back while I was contorted and focussed on my argument and the feeling like I was disrespected by my son trying to play releases more anxiety, the being startled releases more anxiety but it doesn't free the anxiety it just splashes over me and soaks back in like a crashed and receding wave on a sandy beach. If I am really shooken up and pissed, maybe I should go out and chop a little wood til I calm my mood down, but thenits majorly important to go sit, because for these same reasons people go mad or take meds, they give up on their families or hold resentments and blame their little ones for the anxiety and tension and for being easily started. heres why Tension and anxiety are carried with you. If you lose them you willsoon find why it is called habitual; you cant get rid of it it actually accumulates unless you sit, and IME it can go away for ever really quickly. When you sit you melt;relax get into posture and melt. The posture is important to a degree because you want to be in a position that does not require effort to be in. You want to be tied up in a knot but nice and symmetricly. It is because of tensionand anxiety and aches that you want your spine upright and aligned to a string of gravity because when you let go in that position, stop holding and melt your vertebre will settle into a position softly, your shoulders will relax and you wont find yourself cramping up in 20 minutes, this is what the position posture and mudra is all about, because for people who are sitting for 45 minutes plus if they were not like that they become sore and ache and not able to sit much longer. Full lotus is a very symmetric and balanced knot you can tie yourself into to fall into dhyana without falling over and out of dhyana. Once in a knot, you can begin to truly relax and reach the state of profound comfort, even though your body is made uncomfortable by full lotus it doesnt matter because you can not react to that, the discomfort loses its thatness and just becomes an odd feeling and despite the physical body you find profound comforth that is both beyond and not of the body, you relax all your muscles, when you feel tension you relax it. You are erasing history from tape when you relax your body like this you are training it to feel good and relaxed in social situations and not to turn on you, there s no anxiety around. Breathing through the diphragmallows for deep breath wich allows for slower breath which allows for quieter and slower thought, still no anxiety. In this state of sitting and not bucking logs and splitting knotty pine, your heart rate and breath mutually slow way down and now guess what can occur? Homeostasis. You have patiently sat your self into a state that the body can and will regulate all vital statts annd relaease that tension and anxiety, heel itself in manyways and also the mind. I put an end to chronic tooth pain in 3 spots in one 45 minute sit one year ago. I went to my spot in the woods and right as I arrived the teeth started hurting, one set off every other in the group, and I had no asprin w/me so in faith I sat. for a good 10 minutes my heart pounded a bbit more then normaly for the event. I was shaking in pain but I have determinism. Using diaphragmatic breathing techniques I was able to slow my breath and still the mind which slows the heart rate which obviously soothes the pain, but more so, it actually is you r consciousmind telling your nervous sytem and brain that "thank you for informing me about the damage in the mouth. I am aware of the problem and when the occaision presents its self I will tend to the issue, thank you again I no longer need to be reminded of the issue"and the pain will go away. Now you can go split some wood.

Empty mind = mind empty of faculty, all senses attention and concentration out side of mind. What is thinking any way? Even If we could put that outside of the mind, I don't think we should. Thinking requires your attention, deeper thinking does not; intuition is spontaneous. Attention on thought causes hesitation Mind always was and will be still.; there's no room to move around. Mind is always quiet; inside it there never has been sound. When all attention is outward and breath is unaffected, but instead remains self regulated this is when, unnoticed the cessation of self and thought occurs. No mind is to blink and miss the moment there never was, this gives way to a mind empty of self; Awareness without dualistic naming and without any consciousness rising.

No apologies necessary dustybeijing Now I feel ashamed for making you feel you should apologies and feel like I should apologies for making you feel that way. I think this feeling ironicly touches on what we are talking about in regards to humble vs humiliated . I must have seemed arrogant by being offended and jumping to my defense and it is that that shames and humiliates me; my own arrogance and defensiveness. Now I am smiling so its all good

Yes I did enjoy our exchange too Marble head

When people are comfortable, and safe without oppression They become less carnally minded, they become ,inspired, powerful and are capable of great things. A good leader places no limits on what they are allowed to do, And never places restrictions on their means of sustenance. Because the leader shows this respect, the people will follow their leader. Therefore those who know the way know the capabilities of living the way but never glorifies it unto themselves. They have confidence in the way whom they embody and express but never take pride as though they themselves achieve. So they do away with concerns of the ego and take the happiness of the people as their own.

The first four lines of chapter 1 and the above half of chapter two share the same meanining and are references to the mutual arising. Although Gia-fu Feng and Jane English are correct in their phrasing, I think it is an incorrect transaltion. It objectifies ugliness and evil and that is (certainly)not the point. This is like saying "the tao of beautifulness is not the Tao of the totality of subjective appearance, The good that is seen in people is not the totality of anythings nature. The unlabeled is implied by the labeled, so the labeling of good and beautiful is the cause of evil and ugliness's origination. This mutual arising of a thing is also its mutual disolution of things which is why the TTC is always trying to do away with good instead of evil. Good and beautiful (and a myriad of others) are not concepts that are necessary to have adopted, but maybe inevitable and so perfectly natural in occurrence but not objective in anyway, so their being creates mayhem when treated as such because, we feel so strongly about how great these things are, we will without choice or freewill automatically feel equally as strongly that their other end is as horrible as they are great. It is shown in chapter 1 that existence was created by the same faculty as what is expanded on in the opening of chapter two and also shown that the mutual arising is also manifested by the collective agreements of humans labeling observations and opinions. this is a reference to the mutual arising of the formless tao, awareness, and existence. Again this leans heavily on what the first few lines of chapter 1 lean heavily on, both are references to the origination of non-existence, and the automatic comming togeather of the conditions for existence. Here is the example. In the beginning there was nothing , so nothing was- so what was being was non-being, or IOW non-beings existence is seen as non-existence. Also when there was this this non-existence, there became an awareness within it that was of it and only of it, therefore the non-existence being (non-being) generated its awareness of beinglessness (being) so it is as follows nonbeing=physical creates being=(non-physical) awareness Also it can and does happen in reverse where the awareness actually also comes first, so the awareness realizes it it is and because it is what it is becomes physical but what it is physacly is absolute nothingness, and so being creates non-being also. That is a mutual arising within the origination of existence, but the mutual arising which is refered to in chapter two originates with this aspect. When the nothingness has awareness of itself this like the origination of of ugliness and evilness from the knowing of their sources (good and evil), so is this also the mutual arising and vehicle of Taos unfolding. When it knows itself as absolute nothingnesss, this seals in and defines both tao, and absolutenothingness as being confined to the characteristics it was known as but by doing so implies a whole spectrum or at at least one other form of what was defined, and so by nature of it's infinitness and thus unconfinableness it expands to the full spectrum of what was defined. Thus absolutenothingness becomes twofold and by tao's effortlessness it becomes complete. So when appearence and nature are decided to have a quality of likability, and the entire collective agrees it is so, the taos virtue of absolutness brings about the actuality of the completness of what has been subjected. and because of what it renders, this weilding of tao is ugly and evil. This is saying that each group of relative concepts is basicly found within any of the groups parts, like any doirection is the same as any other direction, as in left and right are not fixed but having to do with the beholders perception. up to california is exactly down to Australia without ever changing direction but simply changing position. If you go North long enough you will go south etc This last part is basicly saying that anyone who knows Tao does what is listed because they understand the nature of its completing all things even what is subjectified, and also Taos seemingly lack of respecting the polar value we ascribe, but to Tao all subjective things share the same objective, or absolute value. So if you are aiming up, you could verywell by way of Tao hit down, being that the absolute values of up and down, good and bad, pretty and ugly are all the same as their other pole.

I see what you pointed out now but it would've been difficult without you being exploicit. Thank you for your input Line 1-"without nature is Tao?" yes it should read more like this "Without self, or nature the itlessness of it..." which goes into the second line, but I can see the confusion. Also as to what you said about the term "ïtlessness" being too confusing...Im not going to disagree with you on that but will argue that although confusing, it may be equally illuminating as to the non-existence off its existence and the unknowable aspect to its being. The rest of the things might just be punctuation and how I structured the over all thing. line 12 which you said does not make sense should read with line 11 like this- Contentment with simplicityiIs dwelling with the sourceless. and then as you pointed out working off of that the following lines are that dwelling with the sourceless is sitting in stillness, and that by sitting in stillness can smooth everything out as 1 continuing and developing thought Line 8,9,10 can be rectified. I can definitely see the confusion but I did not earlier should read more like - "Organized to perfection, yet peoplel desire more... Successfully restraining fthe desire for more is caving contentment with simplicity." So if it were restructured as Is that a little more palatable? I appreciate your input Marblehead. If I didn't know Tao less explicit may have been better, but since it is grammar, syntax and sentence structure that I know less, having it pointed directly at is helpfull. I do not have a education so to speek and my spelling punctuation and general structure often show that, but I am bright enough to understand things when they're shown to me.

If the word injured were replaced (which it should be as a dictionary difinition if I'm getting called on grammar as a poster on an internet discussion forum) with something like the word compromised then I see the word interchangeble or at least apt in that it does not implied that you became humiliated, but remained in that staste, which would /should be defined differently. Surely you should not feel shame for yourself as a state of being, however in keeping with the principle of remaining lowly wich implies lower then baseline, and goes along with the principle of stayin close to desolation, would it not be in accordance with Tao to remain as though humiliated? Do even the humiliated feel asahmed of themselves? When humiliated the senses of self is greatly compromised and in question. Humiliation comes without damaging injurying self respect. What is self respect in light of what is self? What humiliation is besides these subjective terms is when a persons ego gets sent for a whirl and they are left questioning their constructed identity which was made largely of lofty self assertions about the self based on such and such things that exist but are passing or do not exist but ar imagined.. I think when looked at from the angle that the Tao exists, then the word humiliated is a go, if looked at that the Tao is not, and so there is a self to which injury can be applied then maybe the word humiliated is not so good

Awesomeness is present within this thread

So does your post it points at nothing but you. Why not be productive Marble?How does it need more work? Nothing I post is a final copy, spontaneous I dont doubt that it needs work but for you to say so implies that you see where it does so what do you see.

Knowing creates being, being creates knowing; that which is known is eternal, yet not the ever-changing of its face The ever-changing brings about all that had & will be known The original originless known, diversified and with that let go of the formless creative living things Freedom & stillness reveal its way Racing, fighting, and grasping leave one interacting with the illusions left in its wake One split into two the moment it emerged, yet they all share the same name That togetherness is the home of all things

The tao that can not be spoken of is never mentioned in the ttc.Also it must be a mistranslation because unless there is no mention of the eternal tao in the entire TTC I imagine that Laotzi was speaking of it throughout the book. At the very least, yher very first line of chapter 1 is definitely speaking of it. In actuality these lines do not mean you can not talk about the eternal tao that is a wide spread mistake obviously, but imply something totally different. I believe this is more accurate-

The doer of a deed is not the deed done. The deed is an entity all in itself wich envoked is in a relationship with the envoker. Being in the present means one does no-thing but is only the moment it is in, so one can not exist and do something. if a person isnt existing as a person who is doing, then the condition for what is happening would have no condition sustaining its being/existence-the person who was not doing would also have no conditions sustaining it as doing something.So niether would exist. If there was no condition, the thing happening and the doer of what is happening could not be observed. If events did not transpire, it would be impossiblle to distinguish what was real from illusion because niether would exist. If niether truth nor illusion existed, there would be no Nirvana or salvation, and nolife or Illusion. If there was no Nirvana, being would be futile. If a person exists but does not do what is happening,, and isn't a part of what is happening, then they arent existing and have no conditions supporting their existence. Since a person can not exist and not notexist at once what kind of situation could support this manner of existence? A doer can not do something where there is no conditions supporting its existing and transpiring. Also, a person who is not a doer can not be apart of what is happening if they are not a condition of its happening. A doer does not exist as a condition of what isn't happening or as something that exists without supportive conditions,nor as a condition of what is, or is not happening because what happens transpire conditions arise and cease. What a doer does depends on what is happening, and what happens is dependent on conditions, the condition of the doer depends on conditions causeing happenings

No cause exists indipendent of other conditions and cause itself is a condition as is the effect.

Tao te Ching Chapter's 1 & 2 merged When the principle is seen within the insubstantial and known as fundamental, This is not the totality of the insubstantial; there for the principle by it's virtue transcends the darkness while still remaining, and becomes the insubstantial's bright. This transcendental quality of the principle is the effortless and selfless force of creation and the sourceless source When the principle is seen with in the bright; Symmetry, countless conciliation points & symmetries, along with the principles of diversification, unity, equilibrium and relation spontaneously come into being.. just as when everyone agrees on a subjective quality as an existing characteristic as reality its essence is manifested full spectrum, full circle,. So; Beautiful and ugly complete appearance, good and evil become a things nature, High-low, up-down, left-right, all dimension of space and form are within each other. All things rise to harmonize in synchronicity as a dependent origination and mutual arising according to what's named and known. Therefore to whom this is known, works that don't secure personal interests are done and they do not know self distinctions or believe in descriptions.. They work toward contentment which lessens desire, and thus observe the essence of principle of infinity to the who it is unknown,there is suffering and transiency from illusion of form. The totality of the insubstantial have co-arisen as one, by way of the principles being and knowing yet differ in how they are known;This unity is the way that uncovers it's beholders mysterious understanding. they work with their spontaneously arising manifestations and the transcendental virtue of the principle but none use effort or wield force; and just by virtue of their being, they selflessly become and indirectly originate. It is because they act without purpose or self interest that path of their creation's articulation is perfection, and that they don't identify with its manifestation, that the perfection and its ever-present fullness remains.

One what?

Without self, or nature The itlessness of it has never done one single thing. Yet the virtue it expresses completes every last thing. If, free from from illusion, one were to wield its virtue, all disorder would rearrange into order seeming all by itself. Organized to perfection, yet still desiring more- Restraining for more is contentment with simplicity. Contentment with simplicity Is dwelling with the sourceless. Dwelling with the sourceless is sitting in stillness. Sitting in stillness, everything will free itself.

Silence is the natural state; emptiness And so the strong wind of the morning when the sun touches the cold ground, Although strong, soon passes. Spring showers although heavy leave rainbows shortly after starting. Even the stars and the earth earth will pass. So those that follow the path, are the path, those who abide in its virtue are virtuous; they are welcomed by the path and by it's virtue. Those who are attatched to what is lost, are with loss, and those who do not trust, can not be trusted.

How is it known without the 5 senses? We see it but it has no shape or color, it's soundlessness is heard without ears loud and clear, we hold it and are held by it, but it has no form. This senselessly sensing is called irrational by convention Above it there are no stars, below it there is no space. Always becoming, that much is known, Never being as is, it can never be labeled, and so it is observed to be without, or as not. Mysteriously with out image, it can't be referenced. Approach it from in front and its gone. Chase it and it disappears from sight. Use this path of the beginning, to bring the order of creation to the chaos of today One can know the ancient beginning of all things; emptiness is called the height of the top, within the bottomless underneath.

Have intensity, yet keep subtle. Be what the world naturally goes to and comes from. In this way, what is naturally human does not seem vanished. Be as you were born. Know the brightness but keep being soft and easy. Be what is compared to not natural. Being natural, the power of nature doesn't stray. Know where pride is said to be due, but remain humiliated. Be what the world returns to; remaining as you were born, not lacking in anything will be sufficient. Be unconditioned; the conditioned are exploited and used. But the wise ones do not exploit them or use them, and becomes the light. So it is best to be as you were born.

Without effort it is, and dwells in emptiness; emptiness is twofold, and between the two who are one is a third, and these three produce the producers of all things. The producers achieve production by ignoring duality accepting relativity & not rejecting eachother. What people dislike most is desolation. Desolation is close to emptiness and creation. So with all things remain close to the begining which abides in nothingness; Take less, but have so much more. Violent consumption leads to an un-natural death.

Stop pretentious enlightenment, and the lost might not be so confused. Stop pretentious piousity and charitable, and the poor will no longer blame themselves for poverty. Be up front and don't seek any rerward, and there wont be anyone compelled to thievery. Understanding enlightenment and acting it out, having an unspoken agenda and exaltation of the self through pity on an unreal distinction are lacking in sufficiency. Be more plainthen everyone else and seem boring By having no selfish desires