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Thats exactly what I was saying, dawei, thank you! It is unreachable in the physical sense, because it is immaterial. Sounds similar to some of my initial experences. Panic generaly ensues with a rapid onset of identity awareness. At first there is just the sense of being, then the sense of familiarity. Without propper preperations, meaning having not started the practice of meditation, the sense of being starts to have sense of familiarity, so without propper mindfullness and concentration of dhyana,the mind snaps out of it and it can be like an anxiety attack. The sense of familiarity is what got my attention, and the idea of somthing being familiar subtly there. When I become aware that something feels familiar, it implies a relative reality, to draw up the concept of self and other, even though it is not a real conscious thought, causes an immediate sense of self awareness, and a manic questioning, "who is this I who is being aware of itself being?!" , and it causes the panic, its all the sudden frightenig to be, and to all the sudden seem to have come into being within the void that instant, yet have no sense of identity. Then the sense of identity falls togeather quickly. You remember that you have a "mom", a friend called Pat, a telephone and stuff like that, but they are not even fully there, but the concepts are developing and its reassuring, and reassuring that everything is real and concrete around you.

The bacteria and yeasts in a sour dough starter, per Cho's instructions, are neither anerobic or aerobic as a rule, but can thrive in either conditions. The method he described is aerobic decomposition. It is not fermented in an enclosed container, and it is stirred regularly, partly to introduce fresh oxygen. Further decomposition with IMO 3, (an aerobic biological complex abstracted from a local forest soil ecology),would have this stuff fully decomposed and ready for plant up-take in a period of 2 weeks (as opposed to 5 days as Cho says)in my opinion. IMO breaks down poop without methane production being a problem, just like I described in the piggeries and chicken coups; there are no waise emissions or run offs using Natural Farming methods. In an aerobic environment, the lactic acid bacteria and yeasts would produce enzymes that broke down virus RNA, and out competed any parisites to extinction. From my own pool of knowledge outside of what I know from Master Chos methods, the bacteria and yeasts in also break down toxic compounds accumulated in the guts and bowels of humans such as pesticide compounds from consuming market food. The intestines and colon are anerobic environments, and so its healthy to eat these cultures as well because like I said, they are both aerobic and anerobic, but my point is actually that because the poop is decomposed under aerobic conditions, the pathogens and parasites from the colon in the poop are not capable of thriving in the decomposition vessel where as the added culture will thrive, the pathogens die off and their bodies are also decomposed further. The fermentation process is an enhanced but natural process done by the natural players from nature.The yeasts and bacteria used in NF are indegenous to the environmet they are used in and so are also thus within thier ideal conditions where as the pathogens from the gut are not. Fermentation is probably a misleading term because as it did with you it draws up images and reasonings that are not true to mind. First of all, people all over the world, in both warm and cold environments have been fermenting food for a variety of reasons. Preserving them in the cold is not a popular one, because cold winters usually equates to easier to store foods for longer periods. Preserving them where it is warm and prone to rot is a popular one, or preserving them in general. It is also probably true that there have been less then conscious reasons for fermenting foods, that reason being because it is incredibly good for you to do so because of the fermentation organisms they contain. They are probiotic foods teeming with bacteria and yeast that rid the guts of parasites and pathogens, producing an environment that promotes healthy bacteria and yeaast. With natural farming methods, the cycle of enhancing the soils inner potential without tilling is to first start adding lactic acidd bacteria and yeasts to the soil because of their ability to thrive in both aerobic and anerobic conditions. What happens is that they penetrate deep into the soil and chemicly prepare the soil for good organisms to thrive, but what they also do is cause anerobic soils to bbecome aerorated and hummusy. This paves the way for aerobig fungi and actino bacteria to colonize the are, while all the anerobic bacterias go dormant. Things like damping off syndrome just dont happen. You can mist your sprouts and they wont damp off. It should be added, that virtually all pathogens thrive in anerobic conditions and not aerobic. Compost is produced and used in Natural farming, but cho appearently feels HLF is more effective then composting. I had mentioned earlier about people saying "why not just compost or use mulch?". Im a huge fan of both, but IMO is different, and where people are amazed by the biological composition of their composts, IMO itself compared to compost or mulch is like the difference between water and a nutrient solution; infact IMO will further decompose your compost and will reduce your mulch to topsoil within the season, all the while attracting benificials like an enhanced population of earth worms, (if you have them in your locale). IMO is also different then soils that have been innoculated under controled conditions with a labratory grown mychorizal culture that wont stand a chance in nature, because like the name says, they are endogenous and have evolved over eons to the quirks and regularoty of your growing environmnet, and so rather then die off after a short lived effect, they become established and thrive on. As a farmer who creates his own resources, it would be in-efective of me to devote my compost to a poop decomposer if it took 2, or even 1 year to both make, and then like wise to decompose. Time itself is not the big killer of parasites/pathogens. In compost its the tempreture produced, and the ammount of time spent in those extreme conditions that kill them off. Since Humanure requires the excretion itself to generate the heat, there are lapses in time where the heat is not present, and so it takes a year to fully decompose the last load you added, to the pile that it took 1 year to make. With bacterial decomposition, it is not thermal death that over comes the enemy, but acids and enzymes that break down fibers and compounds in nature, are creating an incredibly in hospital environment, (to the enemy), that actualy have the ability to decompose, thats what they are for. I should also add, that in my visualtion of the process Cho describes, Id use a 55 gallon drum, or rubbermaid type trash can instead of a plastic lined pit. Also, if you dont feel like stiring and you have a power source, you can run a fish pump through the barrel that will ensure an aerobic environement.

The perception of void is embeded in mind, it is now, like dawei said, and it also does not exist like marblehead says. Everything is mind, and mind begind in nothingness, and that is how something comes from nothing. In the begining, there was absolutely nothing, and it became aware. Because nothing by nature does not exist, only its awareness existed. Because the awareness of nothing existed, and its existence is dependent on infinity, and nothing's infinitude(because it is not nothing if something exist within it) i, nothings awareness, trancends the confines of nothingness as they are in that state, and inverts into male aspect, which rather then being comparable to the lack of all things, is comparable to all things collapsing inward in an infintesamly small point. This causes the previous form of nothing to expand, giving the impression of outwardness and space, however its an in travesable space, even male cant be "within" the "space", yet male "ends up" on "the othersde", which is essentially another dimmension of nothing, as it ends up there the nothingness there (female) springs into being. Non-existance is the original state of the female aspect, which conjurs up the male aspect, which acts on nothingness. Nothingness, integrates/immitates/reflects, and does the opposite of males collapsing which again is expanding eternaly. Because they are non-existant, the dimmension of non-existance is a dimmension of mind and awareness because each of these that come into being develop a self awareness. It is the self awareness of these that "actually exist". The first of which is just a sense of being, the same exact sense of being that all of us share and that gives us the impression of being, self and life. It is the same exact sense of being that you will still have after the death of your body. It is the same sense of being as is within male/female and everything live or dead. The male and female aspects each have a sense of being, and each have self awareness, and because their nature is the same,( the only difference being the direction they "move"), they also share the exact same self awareness; they have the same I am. But because their bodies do not exist, only the awareness of their being exists, and when we reach void, it is that exact same awareness we are sharing. Anything seen or experienced there is real, but represenative of its reality because its reality has no form. The white can be seen, and it can also be seen just as a ripple or a dimple. The female can be seen as darkness, or right on top of our daily reality. The interplay can be seen from the female, and it can be seen from the male. Just as the two come into being and gain awareness, so does the symetry between the two. So do all their shared attributes, equilibrium, balance, eternity etc., also so does the phenomenon they bring forth gain a self awareness. The transmutation, the diversification, the replication, the elements of time and creation. All these things come into being, gain awareness, and by the same force of infinities being, they spread infinitely so eternity gets filled with a gazillion specks of white nothing undulating and spreading across the sea of infinitude. But there is no time and space as of yet so the visual is purely represenitive of its actuality. There are a gazillion yin/yang interplaying at any givven point all the time everywhere underneath reality, and within reality you see its expression everywhere. Just as sense of being and self awareness arises on all these "things", the collective of all these things being a thing also gains awareness. This Awareness is mind and the conduit from which nothing becomes something. It realizes its being and considers itself almost consciously. It realizes it is eternal, and thus has comfort and bliss. It considers possabilities, that this aspect of its reality, plus that aspect could be something other then nothing, and in a way to complicated to explain from this angle, all things come into being. So the experience of void is a state of awareness, and it rests in the begining of time and mind. The core of sentience. Reach it, but dont hold it and it may spring to life.

I just got the Korean Natural Farming handbook back that I loaned out a few months ago. Most of the contents I pretty much got down but I have not gotten to fermenting my own excrement yet, so I wasn't sure of the process that master Cho described. Since a lot of the content of this thread is about poop, I thought I'd transcribe a bit from Cho's book. Forgive the Korean accent. There was only a few of these that were printed in English, although they have a new edition that is a little better. This section is pretty easy tounderstand, but there are other sections of the book that misuse certain words, so if you are not watchful it can be misleading or hard to understand. .So thats it. IMO, and FAA are two of the inputs we use in NF. IMO is indigenous micro organisms. IMO is basicly the foundation of NF and what really works the soil and makes nutrients available, and plants strong and resistant. FAA is fish amino-acids. Sort of like fish emulsion, its made from fish meat and waste products like the intestines etc. I would want to scale this down quite abit for the first go round, maybe a 5gal bucket for starters, that way, if something goes wrong, I'm not stuck with 600kg of my own shit. I think where he says to use "yeast cultivated on rice bran", that would translate to basicly using a sour dough starter, either made on wheat or rice bran. Where he says -"Fermentation rids parasites, and converts indigestable substances to digestable ones" I believe that means there is locked up phosphoros in the poop that gets unlocked by the micro-organisms. Most soils already have adequate P also, but plants can't uptake it because its locked up because phosphoric acid bonds easily to many things, so we use lactic acid bacteria and yeasts, along with IMO to unlock soil nutrients that are already there. Often times a soil analisis will tell you that you have a P deficancy, so farmerrs add more P and this creates run off problems and more nutrient lock up. So I think that might be the case with the phosphoric acid in poop as well. Although when he says its high in P, that does not necessarily mean that it is as high as 0-30-0, it means there is an adequate ammount that it could be used as an N-P fertilizer instead of just N. Kinda like blood meal.

The white dot is purely representational, bot in the Image, and in the void space where its some times seen as light. The curviture in the Tai chi symbol is also representative of the undulation produced by the white and the black existing in the same "space", which can also be felt, and also seen as breathing or a breathlike shape in emptiness. The reality is there is no space and they are both there to keep it that way, they are being nothingness yet they have a portion of a diversified way of being that, so like chemicals, they react, yet they dont play out because they exist as expressions of infinity. The closest image in physical reality you could conjure is an empty vacuous space as female in reaction to male, and the ever collapsing infinetness of a singularity as the male aspect, which alsoemits no actual light. These things though are not the "emptiness" that Buddha talks about when he says "everything is empty". Emptiness in that respect is the notness of everything, that nothing has a charecteristic to its nature, or a self, meaning that it is anything. That we make ourselves aware of things, and that what we are "aware" of comes into being as the reality we experience, and that things are what or that they are; the reality is that things are nothing, just an aspect of ego cultivated consciousness.

Ego finds comfort in holding opinions, the thought of not being offended is offensive to it. Like aan animal at the zoo that has learned to find comfort in its engagment and feeding regiment. Our identity is based on the opinions we hold and nothing more. So, you can sit in meditation for however long, yet when you get up, drop the minfullness act and carry on fortifying your cultural imprint and miss the point entirely. Opinions are attatchments, and by way of tao and the simplest expression of karma, if you are happy holding this one (attatchment) then you will find it impossable to let go of that one.

It is not an opinion, it is its nature/it just is. It is an opinion that it is disgusting., a cultivated sense of good/bad, like dislike, gross/apealing; it is dualistic thinking, the aspect of ego mind that makes a label and discrimination when an object or phenomenon befalls one or more of the senses. A consciousness/ mental complex attatched and associated w/ egos preferences which are generally gathered from the cultural pool of what is acceptable. Ask a dog what it thinks when indiscrimanently it gulps down a pile of feces from any variety of animal, from an old dogs butt to a new humans butt. The poop, and the butt have no charecteristic like we ascribe to describe its nature in dualistic/relative terms. Those terms are only relative to the ego. To those involved in cultivation, holding on to opinions like that is not only misleading to your mind on its path, but alo, it is fostering the illusion of duality, when the point of cultivation is to loosen its binds. On another note. Meditation with others can be very lifting, especially if you are aware of the fact that we are all "psychic" beings to some degree or another; our minds are open to others. If you are practicing meditation with others who are not as adept as yourself, so long as they practice Te (sincerity in this case) when sitting, then it should have no negative effect at all. If they are more adept at meditation, and your mind is open, their comfort, silence, and clarity should difuse with your own. Mind is an open apparatus we are all apart of, and have a share in it. We are all of the same energic fabric, divided by ego/delf/atman whatever which is unreal although it has the power to distort things. I think of humanities mind like a lake. although we each feel like we are separate, in reality thought(s) wich are fish in the lake, swim from mind to mind as though it is one lake. Ego is a net, the fish get caught in it (we hold/entertain thought process's /patterns), but without the net the fish swim freely. If you realize your unity to everyone, however you do that personaly is not of any difference, and then sit with a group, you have preidentified that you are one with your group. If one person has trouble someone else can smooth it out, if one person settles in with ease, then it will be easier for others to settle in with ease. When you sit in solitude or in a group and feel comfort, stillness and peace, it is not your comfort stillnesss or peace you are feeling. If you have ever felt that profound sense of comfort that does not radiate inward from your bodies relaxation, but radiates from deeper within and outward beyond the general sense of physacal relaxation, the comfort of non being (not relishing in or dwelling on as in "I am experiencing/feeling physical relaxation" but letting your mind sink deeper) the relaxation of physical comfort, there it is sensed that this is the state of reality not the body, and likewise so is mind.

Nothingness is the birthplace of awareness, it is the original being, it has no trace, just an awareness. True nothingness is not void, void is the first infinity of the male and female integration. It is not nothing, because there is space. More realisticly it, being void, is the first form. Void is not to be mistaken with empty space either. Or it could be said that, empty space is the 3rd form of nothingness, the physical form of void. Void is not just darkness/emptyness. It is nothingness intermingled with brightness. It is dark, but has clarity; its backbone is infinity. Nothingness is, but exist only as the original being, by definition it has no form, but it is aware of its being' it's sense of being and self awareness are the birth place of all things. The male aspect never exists indepenently from the female aspect; the male aspect is an inversion and same thing as nothingness which is the original female. From the aspect of nothingness there is the origination of male, at the "moment" of males origination, nothingness responds and integrates the male by inverting its quality, just as the male is the inversion of that original female. Males origination is the first action, its immediate reaction to the environment,(nothingness) is infintesimal smallness, female inverts by being activated (which is an action on male), and infintesimaly expansive. Male is invisable, expressing itself only as clarity amidst eternal darkness. yet still there is no emptiness, there is no depth or height, no gravity to fall; no dimension, only essence, principle and awareness of the everpresent sense of being. I've spent years in nothingness, the undulating light and the dark. A quality of knowing and seeing that used to take over my senses in trance states that had me afraid to begin meditation practice for years because the trances would just come on without anything causing it. I thought if I sat and allowed the state of meditation that trance state would take me to scary places. There is even something written in my natal chart about my having knowlede of the void. Many people will tell you to stay out of there, that it is negative and not to give it any mind. NOnsense. The void is the begining, the launchpad of reality and the origin of life. Starting with nothingness, one can watch the essence of Tao originate and elaborate reality. Only from there can you watch creation happen step by step.

And what is so disgusting about that? Have you seen these waist products? They are very unoffensive, and so are the waist products of an infant who breast feeds. There is also nothing disgusting about the butt of an infant from where the "waist product" exits just as there is nothing disgusting about an old persons butt where the waist product exits. What is a waste product? Its a label for a lack of understanding of what to do with something. Bad hygiene is the result of personal issues, good or bad; being disgusted is living among the named and also the result of lack of cultivation. How many people who contemplate their own dreams in honesty and mindfulness, find them in earnest to be about the issues of others?

Seems to me that trusting your self often means going with your programmed imprint/ the aquired not self. I don't think the dream about the navel is about people and stomachs in general. No body part or section of the body is "bad" with "bad" chi. The belly is where you breath from, where you were fed in your mother from, and the location of your enteric nervous system/abdominal brain where intuitive matters are computed, and even where dreams come from. There is nothing disgusting about the stomach as a rule, it is almost like its own being.

The US's influence in N.Korea's poor state is that we wont allow any countries to trade with them. China is pretty much the only country they are allowed to trade with. Imagine if England was cut off from trade from nearly all foreign trade. They'd be a pretty sad nation as well.

I agree Apech, good observation.

There are still babies being born with birth defects because of agent orange used in vietnam. We also torture people who have not been tried. That picture of the baby in vortex post is disturbing and I dont dount that things like that are the result of our "liberating" nations and peoples. To answer your question Aaron, I do not believe it is according to Tao to strike in this case or many cases at all. It certainly would be intervening, doing, and interference, and also taking action for the sake of self and thus would be sure to accumulate bad karma for our nation and in this case we wouldn't be certain if we were even attacking the "right" people. When a nation srays from Tao, war horsesare pastured in the commons. The US has been hyper vigilant, ready to strike any middle eastern nation that it can barely rationalize attacking, ever since 9-11; its called maniacal revenge, blind revenge, rage that doesnt care if it even gets the right one, and not according to Tao in essence nor in principle

Thats the beauty of the American political system, the unpinpointableness of everything. There has been quite a bit of propoganda which builds up a national prejudiced towards muslims, and we do and have piled on against them and muslim countries. Even though most of the muslims involved in 9/11 were Saudi, we piled up crap against afghanistan and attacked unjustly, witin the same time period, while America was rallied in hatred towards muslems we attacked Iraq saying it was because Sadam had chemical weapons, we looked but never found them, invaded their country anyway but the never were used on us and stil havn't turned up. These wars have only been possable because America was rallied toward hatred for muslims and there was some blurry reasoning givven to us along with speels about the axis of evil, jihad islam and being told they attacked us. All the while we are also very PC, and like you said, the president and his office can act a certain PC way but thats just them acting. Believe it or not, the presidents act does not express the agenda of the US govt, nor is it a representation of the American peoples media fed and maintained opinion. Its a diplomatic act. We can say muslims are not all bad people, but point out that if they are devout and pious according to their doctrine they are sexist militants who have an insane maniacal ideology that does their thinking for them. Culturaly its ok to say its ok to be muslims, however the majority deal is that those muslim countries are savage barbaric lands where they have been acting the psychopath for years killing eachother; but its ok to be muslim, and it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. Because we aren't totalitarian, and part of what keeps us calm, complacent and unrebeliouus is our belief system, that we believe in the American dream, and that we are free we dont question the core of our economy or whether we are slaves in a closed system or not, our propganda has to be more elusive then Nazi Germany's was. Our propoganda tactics are to make ourselves believe it is our opinion that we are free individuals who came up with our own free thoughts, views and opinions. We think we make our own biases while our president acts like a geeky white guy whos virtuous and diplomatic, PC and with his wings stretched out to all peoples welcomming them in to coddle them like a hen with its chicks. The danger with you tube is though, you can pick and choose which propoganda your going to subject yourself to, so you get all these manic chicken little types hopped up on opinion and paranoia or whatever, then as a result there is a wave of rationale currently sweeping the nation of not believing in anything negative said about the govt's intentions which is just the extreme of the conspiracy theorist and just as irritational in its shrugging off everything related.

Since alot of the videos you guys are posting are not related to the topic, it would be helpful if there was some text along with it, telling us what the vid is about and how it connects to the OP. Personally if its a random video I dont usually watch unless its only about a minute long. I dont think to many of us are going to click on random videos that ar 10 minutes+. It seems like most of them are just about how AMerica is corrupt, which may be true of our government, I certainly believe so, but not all discussions involving America need to turn into a youtube playlist of "America Sucks Videos". The same point can be gotten across while sticking to topic. Anyway I just read in the news today that - Apearently the American people are against us going to war over there, even if Assad is guilty. I dont think it has much to do with China and Russsia ganging up on us if we do, or whether or not hes guil;ty of crimes against humanity. Its obviously a personal interest issue, but its also showing us more what a puts Obama is. After the kids were shot by that psycho in Colorodo Obama immediately set up a poll asking if there should be a ban on assault rifles and sticter regulations on guns which everyone in the frenzy whos heart was touched by the tragedy and the news coverage voted yes. It was turned over as unconstitutional. Obama went on a rampage saying that congress doesnt care about what the American people want, saying that his poll shows what the Americn people want and that congress clearly, arrogantly doesnt care. I think if it was a propper democratic vote taken right now, not a poll taken the day after oer whatever, you'd see that most Americans do not support the over turning of our constitution and do not support Obamas opinion or agenda regaurding guns. Obama went rage saying how screwed up it is that congress does not respect the obvious wished and desire of the American people. Around the same time Obama was talking about givving assault rifles to syrian rebels. California and many states have legalized Marijuana one way or another. These states held legal democratic votes on the issue to see how and what the people really wanted. These states passed new laws based on the elections. Obamas spokesman said they would not honor the state laws protecting marijuana people because congress is looking out for whats best regaurding the American people, and if congress dosnt legalize it, then basicly our opinions do not matter. Now, here we go again. Stupid ass war after stupid ass war, (and we dont win), and finally the American people are saying no, basicly in unison, so it will be interesting to see how this all turns out with Obama and his big mouth. Lets see how much he honors our stance as a people, after saying all that crap about assault rifles ,(which he was planning on givving to a bunch rebels in a region where they would more then likely end up circulating amongst terrorist groups that hate America), stricter gun regulations and congress, now that the polls are not in favor of his agenda. When Clinton passed the dont ask dont tell thing in the military, he took an opinion poll but alsostated that his "mind was already made up", at least he was upfront about it and didn't try to pass an opinion poll off as his reasoniing. But this to me is different, this seems to be everyone in the world saying no, except part of the US govt. Our getting involved could definitely lead to something bigger and worse because it would be a sign of our disregaurding the world to pursue our own self interest and that we might get worse and worse if we succeeded and become more and more of a threat to world peace. If we did attack, I think it would be wise for China and Russia to stop us so we dont take it further and further in the future, and I think that is what the other large nations are worried about..."Whats America going to do?". in general, not just about the Syria issue but I think they are eall watching us from the corners of there eyes. In the last several years we've lost credibility and trust with everyone, we're going broke, and obviously pursuing self interest, one of which is to get a hold of some oil laden country before they switch the oil currency. Hopefully I'm up in a mountain garden surrounded by good friends, family and wilderness soon. Whether the economy collapses, or we get ironicly after all these years attacked by commies and russians, or what, Id be better off if I had no idea what was going on.

I think I made several valid and reputable points, while even clarifiying and pointing out that your source of scientific basis of information actually supported my arguement. Rather then deviate from the op's intended conversation any further I will just stand by what I have already said as proof enough for anyone who cares to visualize & realize, (because it does take some actual neuroplasticity to brake away from culturaly imprinted thinking), to u nderstand. Back to the topic sorta, to respond would just manifest more bad karma, by generating an either exact or opposite symetry to this post.

I was growing food for sustenance at one point a few years ago, but was also growing cannabis for personal use, and to make a little money for a water tank, a beater truck, just some simple tools to survive. Anyway I remember looking at the cannabis amongst everything else I was growing and realized that it would have pulled the whole thing togeather if it were legal to grow, not as a cash crop but as a sustenance crop. The issue with growing food for sustenance is that it can be difficult to figure out what to grow to be healthy and survive, like all the basics. Its a lot easier if you have live stock, a few chickens make a few eggs everyday and can be used as a meat source obviously, but growing the right plants for a surplus of complete/balanced meals without meat takes some thinking. Most farmers buy all if not most of their animal feed. Thats when it dawned on me about the caannabis. Looking at plants that were going to produce upto 2lbs of dried and trimmed sensimillia, I realized that each of these plants would produce 5lbs of some of them most nutritious grain on the planet, in what ammounts to about 5square feet of growing area. It takes about 100squarefeet to produce 10lbs of rice, and rice is an inferior grain. Basicly off 20 full size ganja plants, you could have 100 lbs of highly nutritious organic grain. Thats alot of nutrition. 40 plants and you have enough food for a family and all the homegrown animal feed you would need for quite a few chickens. This was years ago, around the time I started learning about Korean natural farming. So I wasn't even thinking of it in those terms, but in those terms it would make a massive ammount of animal feed, because with NF animal husbandry, wild plants/chopped grass make up 20 percent of the animal feed, plus you could grow worms and grubs for chickens and pigsto supplement their grain feed in the same grow space you could plant rice in between the pot plants, along with flax or a legume, so in the same exact grow space you've got a multigrained patch that produces all the complete protien you could use plus more. I agree with you deaddragon about not approaching it from the Tao angle. Although I do consider myself a self styled Taoist, I would be suprised if my philosophy lined up to the actual religions to which the title is attributed. I live in Norther California already but am moving to Siskiyou county up at the Oregon border in a few days. Im meeting up with the person who I've been talking about this stuff with for about 3 years now and her and i are going to try to start something. This will be the begining, almost like an antichamber before we really enter into it which will probably be a couple of years. The thing were going to do now, is basicly start farming on this bit of land we trying to procure that has some structures on it and is ON grid...Various things about the property make me think its not the right space, for one thing its owned by a landlord who we will have to be working for to pay rent, the other thing is that although it is in the country in an already sparsely populated region, its a part of a community with neighbors etc. Im sure they are fine people but for my vision it needs to be off grid, surrounded or backed by wilderness and the rental entagnglement can not be an issue, so it either needs to be owned or subsidized some how. Siskiyou county or Del Norte is where I see my vision unfolding so this is a step towards it. We can make some money build a surplus of essential supplies, possably meet others to become involved and also build up an arsenol of live plants and livestock that are suitable for the climate there, so as soon as we set up we have plants, two year old fruit trees etc to get right at it. Last night I watched TV wich I dont normally do and watched the news which I do even less and all the sudden there was a blurb about a Nor Cal county that was planning on suceeding from the state of california to form the state of Jefferson. It was Siskiyou county they were talking about. Appearently all the county heads are sick of getting ignored by sacramento and having to do with water rights and surely some other stuff too. I shut the TV off right after that. I found it encouraging and practical, not at all selfesh, its just that if all you are is used by the sytem and it doesnt provide what it offers, only takes and takes, then it is wise to breakaway so that you can be the best you can be, to offer what you have and to fullfill the needs of your people. If your potential is supressed, and you want to give your greatness, not just be used for this or that what elde do you do. Its the Amercian spirit to say you are not a tool of an oppressive machine, to break away and start something great. That is literally the foundation of this country, its how we became a nation.

Im pretty sure he was saying that your saying that we are be ing holier than thou in attitude by wanting to do something different if I am not mistaken. That everytime someone sqays lets get togeather to do things different, gets attacked by people saying that we're calling ourselves better, like we are sticking our noses up to society, but we're not. Theree is just no venue within society to support our approach to living. It is society as it is that is unwilling to co-exist. I think what I am saying as well as the op is that this would be a part of society still, but a different cultural approach to living and co-existing in the present day times. Yes it would have a selectively excitable membrane I should say, part of which would be the undesirability to most people, because of its simplicity and completeness. But if it was a free for all youd have all sorts of people screwing up the collective intention and sanctuary. I cant speak for the op but what I'd like to provide is a valuble space for people that are going through what I have. Possably just a retreat for some who want to live simply and meditate, but cant afford to goto a monestary(lol!). Not saying if you were rich you couldnt, but like I said earlier, the imagelessness, and the rustic simplicity would be a turn off to many people by itself. To others it could be a place to live simply yet still have a space to be productive, creative and have autonomy which as Lao Tzu points out in so many ways, id essential for our true nature. As far as pollution and making things worse...no. Thats not what would happen from my approach which is a farming practice that is actually good for the earth, does not create waiste run off and even with live stock there is no waiste emissions or run off. Its a bio-dynamic permaculture methodology that was first developed in Japan in the 1930's called Natural Farming. The Method I practice is a newr form called Korean Natural Farming and relies heavely on the use of mycelium and micro-organisms whom actually clean the water, eliminate run off and are capable of bio-remediation in any previosly farmed space. I posted a thread on it here http://thetaobums.com/topic/30800-tao-in-agriculture-natural-farming/ Ther are no tractors or heavy machinery required but I myself am fond of chipper-shredders for mulch making and other stuff. This farmmethod was designed by Master Cho in order to for poverty stricken farming communities to compete in the global Market. The Korean farmers could not affor fertilizers etc, not to mention that all that is bad for the land to begin with. Like I said, no machinery is needed, but more importantly ALL of the inputs, (plant fodds, suplements, and ferrtilizers) are hand made. All the micr-organisms are sourced localy and cultivated by the farmer, all materiels needed are what ever is on site; in fact, bringing inputs in from far away places which is considered normal in all other conventional farming practices, even permaculture to a certain degree, and especialy using foregien micro organisms is a violation of the principle and philosophy of natural farming.

Im pretty sure he was saying that your saying that we are be ing holier than thou in attitude by wanting to do something different if I am not mistaken. That everytime someone sqays lets get togeather to do things different, gets attacked by people saying that we're calling ourselves better, like we are sticking our noses up to society, but we're not. Theree is just no venue within society to support our approach to living. It is society as it is that is unwilling to co-exist. I think what I am saying as well as the op is that this would be a part of society still, but a different cultural approach to living and co-existing in the present day times. Yes it would have a selectively excitable membrane I should say, part of which would be the undesirability to most people, because of its simplicity and completeness. But if it was a free for all youd have all sorts of people screwing up the collective intention and sanctuary. I cant speak for the op but what I'd like to provide is a valuble space for people that are going through what I have. Possably just a retreat for some who want to live simply and meditate, but cant afford to goto a monestary(lol!). Not saying if you were rich you couldnt, but like I said earlier, the imagelessness, and the rustic simplicity would be a turn off to many people by itself. To others it could be a place to live simply yet still have a space to be productive, creative and have autonomy which as Lao Tzu points out in so many ways, id essential for our true nature. As far as pollution and making things worse...no. Thats not what would happen from my approach which is a farming practice that is actually good for the earth, does not create waiste run off and even with live stock there is no waiste emissions or run off. Its a bio-dynamic permaculture methodology that was first developed in Japan in the 1930's called Natural Farming. The Method I practice is a newr form called Korean Natural Farming and relies heavely on the use of mycelium and micro-organisms whom actually clean the water, eliminate run off and are capable of bio-remediation in any previosly farmed space. I posted a thread on it here http://thetaobums.com/topic/30800-tao-in-agriculture-natural-farming/ Ther are no tractors or heavy machinery required but I myself am fond of chipper-shredders for mulch making and other stuff. This farmmethod was designed by Master Cho in order to for poverty stricken farming communities to compete in the global Market. The Korean farmers could not affor fertilizers etc, not to mention that all that is bad for the land to begin with. Like I said, no machinery is needed, but more importantly ALL of the inputs, (plant fodds, suplements, and ferrtilizers) are hand made. All the micr-organisms are sourced localy and cultivated by the farmer, all materiels needed are what ever is on site; in fact, bringing inputs in from far away places which is considered normal in all other conventional farming practices, even permaculture to a certain degree, and especialy using foregien micro organisms is a violation of the principle and philosophy of natural farming.

Forget black and white. How many Chinese people identify with Japanese people as the same proud race as the yellow people? White Americans like to think that there is a yellow race, but that is our cultural construct, not theres. Id imagine, the less offendable asians probably think its kinda amusing that we call them yellow and dont at all identify with that as their race. How many Japanese people identify with the asians that share some of the popular regional charecteristics of the chinese, but are "white" skinned, have multi colored eyes and hair (among them), I dont know the ethnicity but these areas that were once apart of the USSR, where when people first migrated from Africa it was from those areas that some went west to europe and others went east into Asia and beyond. Geneticist and anthropologist believe it was from there that people became typicaly european, and typacal asian, yet these people still exist and both euro and asian traits can be seen in them, what are thay, are they, and do the Japanese feel a kindri spirit with these as their bretheren. No because for centuries, the Japanes have been a hyper racsist society who believed they were one race, definitely not chinese or northern eurasian. Do the northern eurasians believe they are chinese or Japanese, or of the same "breed" ?Not likely But I can switch parts with anyone of any race, I can take blood so long as we share the same type, I can take a pancreas from anyone even a heart from anyone. Feraris and toyatas are more like cats and dogs.

I should probably ad, that the Tommy, who was the center charecter of the movie Emerrald Forest, who was known by his people as Tomme', did not return to the US with his biological family. He did not become overwhelmed with a feeling of belonging and a tidal wave of supressed emotion or memories. He never really grasped who Da'de' was or his mother and he remained with the people of the Amazon who he identified with. In the movie the dad who was engineering a dam helped the cause of the forest people and blew up the dam for the love of his son. This is probably untrue but because of the make up of our psyches, we wanted to see Tommy go home with Daddy and Mommy, so our psyches found the actual reality heart breaking so Hollywood added a good heart warming ending for all our western minds to rest on. But the truth is very different then what our psyches which control our hearts and minds, wanted to see. I think you can actually, but you cant switch parts of the engines.

So scorpio is an ethnicity or a race? Do you share many psychological traits with scorpios who've grown up in the amazon basin? No, and no. Your natal chart does not define your psyche, but maybe influences your tendendencies within your ulture and its environment. A scorpio from the Amazon who has not had much contact with western society, and a scorpio from Salt Lake City could, not even be seen by the same psychologist, because psychology is based on a wester psyche. How would a childs relationship with their parent/father affect their psyche if they grew up in a matriarchal culture that placed no emphesis on the role of father, they donteven have a word for it? It is things like this that effect and influence the psyche and its form and is why western psychologist can only work on western people, they no nothing about the psyches of people in drasticly different cultures. Your personal astrological chart influences your tendencies. A male with a sun sign in cancer might be a very good father in the west. He might also be very possesive of his wife and children, and very family oriented. In a matriarchal sosciety, that same person would be a good uncle but would never develop that sense of family that we do, but might feel that way about his whole tribe. If that cancer was in the west he might be so family oriented that he became possesive of his wife, have old family values, but in a completely different non matriarchal tribal setting, he would more then likely be less possesive in a society that shared their wives with house guest. In a society where families are shaped a certain way and certain rules are in place, certain psyches will develop insecurities, become possesive and get angry when their wife "cheats" on them. They will gather up all their friends to throw rocks at her and call her a whore. Othe societies share their wives with house guests, and do not even have a word for adultry. It is these cultural ways that define our psychological make up and world view, and language. In my natal chart I have so much Pluto influence that I am basicly an honorary scorpio without any Scorpio except on the north node of the moon. The pluto being promminent gives me alot of scorpio influence in prominent places. Einstein or anyones brain is also going to influence them for sure, but it is the parameters of language/cultural definitions, cultural ideals ways and worldview along with the immediate environment which will also likely be culturaly landscaped that make up your psychological state. Genes, and zodiac influence your tendencies within the culture, but it is the way of the culture that you will absorb and its image of wholeness that will be the balance of a psyche. Ferarris and toyatas are very different, they cant switch parts and one can never be like th other. Like you said what they have in common is that they both need gas and oil to run. Sort of like the similarities between me and an animal that is not necessarily a human There is such a tiny difference that again, you are closer related to any random person on the planet then two chimpanzee brothers from the same parents are to eachother. The differnce between all humans is less then 0.1 percent. Unrelated humans are closer related then almost every complex creatures direct familys are. We can switch parts, we can share blood. Oh but we cant share just anyones blood. It has to be the right blood type so the person needs to have the same blood type of you. Oddly enough, blood type is not at all confined to various races...or maybe not so odd given that race is a concept/construct. We can share parts, ferarris and toyatas cant. Disappearing. He wasnt taken at 6 months old, he was taken at 6 years old and found while still a teenager and only remembered his family/dad from his dream and did not remember his mother or language. All forgotten in about 11 years. My point was actually that if this person was taken at infancy, hed have zero connection to his bio-parents, and he certainly would not be innoculating the Amazon people with American ideologies and psychological traits when he married and had off spring, just because of his "white mans blood".

Iff your awake I suppose that is how you intuited that, and generalized us all as having the same agenda and doing all this for the sake of self. Yes I want to develop a life potentiating setting, open it up to people on the path for the sake of myself. I think it would be good for the earth and its inhabitants.

Protector, is a buddhist monestary and becomming a monk selfish? I think that that is what we are sying here, I wouldd compare my worldly desire to that of livng the life style as a monk as I see it, and the place would be my garden temple/monestary. Although those are not the terms I would use, what I am envisioning is the modernday version of what those places that used to exist represent to me, because that is what I identify with as my path and stage of denvelopment. I do not see the current options available under the same name as authentic or aligned with the path, and I certainly don't associate the american way with the path either. We should all be doing the same thing? When everyone thinks beautiful is beautiful, this is very ugly. The thing the world was doing not to long ago, was very diverse, there were thousands of cultures all doing very differnt things, livving very different lifestyles holding very different worl views. Variety is essential for life. Mothernatures one observable technique is that diversity is required and is a greater assurance of survival. Since industrialization and globalization, and what the west calls the "age of enlightenment" human cultural diversity is experienceing the equivalent of genocide , trying to establish a "master world culture" based on the western consumer way of life and materielistic ideology. It is my humble opinion, that globalization and the gentrification of all lifestyles and cultures is exteremely selfish and should be rejected in the name of humanity, life and diversity. Now go back to sleep and continue not caring, only, also dont care about what others do. At least not to the point that you call them selfish for not adhering to your self destructive materialistic ideology.

The facts in the article, and even the speculation presented that was inspired by doesnt negate the fact that there is no such thing as race, in fact it supports it regaurdless of the fact that it uses the term, "race. If you click on the link provided in the article you provided, you'll probably wish that you'd read it earlier because it says what I've been saying , even pointing to chimps as an example. It says hat scientist no longer believe in race. If you read the first couple post I made in this thread, you will also find it ironic that I used brazil as an example (just like your article)to contrast our perception of race. Heres from your article- Now click on the link- Your comparison of automobile varieties is definitely racists. Yes all PEOPLE are different, just like some of us are more observent and mindful then others. I disagree idea that genes alter our psychological make up, probably less then our gender. They do only through ways of identification when the psyche is forming, but the psyche forms and is not a product of race, but of culture. Look at president Obama. This might piss some people off but as far as Im concerned, Obama is whiter then me, and all though I am classified as "white", because of the reality of it being that "white" is only an ethnicity and not a race, I therefore do not have to identify with that enthnicity and therefore am not white. As a follower and treader on my path of refinement, I reject the identetity of a "whiteman" and do not identify with the what I see as definining the parameteres of that ethnic group. Knowing that this is the reality, I also dont see Obama as black, he is literally whiter then me regaurdless of skin color. But here is a better example. Unlike a ferrari or a toyata, you can take a baby human, a growing and developing thing that is receptive and not an objectivly formed entity, from a suburban white family in Ohio at birth and place him in the care of a tribe in the amazon basin to be raised by an indigenous tribal group isolated from western civilization, and beaver cleaver will not be the result. That "white" baby will grow into an inegral part of that ethnic group and culture. That person will in no way shape or form identify with the American way, dream or political system. That person will identify with its culture as its race, that pone will no more identify with its biological family as its people then I identify with my neighbors pet fish as mine. That person will not carry a hint of western/american ideology, he will not tend to be judeo-christian in morality and will not even live within the same hyper-reality as anyone in the couuntry where the people he was born from reside. This is true. There is a movie you can watch that was inspired by the true story of this happening. We had to wath this movie in a cultural anthropology class I took because its a good example of how culture works in some respects. An American architect was in south America working on a major dam building operation. He took his family down to see the job site where he was working and there 6 year old son was "kidnapped" by one of the indigenous tribes. He was raised by them. He forgot how to speak english and forgot everything about his past. His dad looked for him for years and eventually found him. The boy only remembered his das image from dreams he had growing up. When he saw him he thought his name was Da'de' but did not associate with a title of fatherhood. The boy regaurded an elder of his tribe as his father and regarded himself as one of the indigenous peoples. Because the indigenous cultures do not live in our hyper reality, or our ideology or withing the kindhip ties we adhere to, they also regarded the boy as one of them and not white like the man who came looking for him. The movie is called "Emerald forest" and is the true story of the account. Its a bit cheezy and over does it with the hollywood aspects so is not a perfect representation of the phenomenon, but it happens because of the process called, enculturation.