JustARandomPanda

If I understand VMarco's stance correctly he's simply saying one has to break through all the skandas - including alaya-vinyana and until that's done no one will have seen his/her "original" nature (aka tathagata). Any tradition that teaches it's students a belief or set of beliefs is practicing dwelling. Even Buddhism and Taoism! Which is why the Buddha himself always stressed his teachings were only expedient means of the moment and that his students - or anyone really - absolutely must let go of even that if they are to realize Wisdom. That's why there is no actual Buddha "Dharma" (or Taoism or Sufism, etc). They're all just training wheels of the moment. The problem with these training wheels is that they themselves - no matter the tradition - are still a form of dwelling. So eventually they'll dissolve too. If you are busy with prostations, mantra, qigong it's still dwelling. But weirdly enough we use these forms to get to a point where thinking and experiencing dwelling dissolves. That's why Master Nan would say to his students: "My words are poison but without them you will not get well." He knew he was just having his students swap one form of dwelling for another one. But at least the ones he taught had the chance that someday they'd see all of it was unnecessary. That's what VMarco keeps pointing to I think. And if so then Master Nan agreed. But Master Nan also said this was equally true of any spiritual tradition/student. Not just the Abrahamaic ones. Buddhists/Taoists/Confucians/Hindus are equally plagued with this problem because it is a human one. Tathagata never dwells. That's why Tathagata is undivided. There's no Many and there's no One either. It's actually moot. When Many dissolves the "realization" of One also dissolves (which many traditions ascribe to as being a "Divine" Oneness to boot). They aren't denying anything. They've just realized it's moot. Realizing Oneness is an actual realization - but it's not the final one as per the Buddha or Master Nan's teachings. I think that's what VMarco keeps trying to say. I just don't think he does it in a clear manner because he's so busy whacking at things he sees as people's beliefs. Maybe it would help to drop the whole 'smacking at beliefs" biz of his for a while and focus on saying things another way? IMO he should drop the whole specific targeting of Christianity and Beliefs and instead start pointing to the things that Master Nan or the Buddha would point to. Simply repeating "stop believing" like a scratched record doesn't do anything to convince anyone. Sadhguru made the point to a student (when that student asked what it was like to be enlightened) that he could tell him but it wouldn't do any good because there was nothing in that student's own experience by which to relate to it. So long as that was the case it would just be another 'beautiful story' he was telling the student. There's another thing here. Since there is no actual Dharma (Tao doesn't place conditions on things) it's silly to say no one who's a Christian or Sufi or Jew can realize tathagata. And that's why I believe Dominicus, et. al. have a point too. As long as they don't dwell it matters not what tradition they use to 'get there'. People will realize it when they realize it...and not a moment before.

I wanted to clarify something else about Master Nan's teachings. He teaches his students that only after one has Realized the Tao does one begin to practice cultivation. Master Nan calls it "Highest Worldly Dharma". Realizing the Tao doesn't yet make one a 1st Bhumi Bodhisattva even if one has taken and practices Bodhisattva Vows. That's why the Buddha spent 3 "incalculable eons" practicing as a Bodhisattva. It takes a looooooooooong time to become a "practicing" Bodhisattva and that's only after one has Realized the Tao to start with. Realizing the Tao is actually the easy part! There is no one alive according to some Tibetan Vajrayana Masters - and according to Master Nan who agreed with them - who is an actual 1st Bhumi Bodhisattva today. At least not as the historical Buddha explained about Bodhisattvas. They maintain since the passing of Shakyamuni Buddha only 5 people have realized all 3 kayas and even then it was only the realization, not the manifestation. Edit: Note: Not even Master Nan himself claims to be a Bodhisattva even though 4 separate traditions (one of which was Tibetan Vajrayana) have verified his Realizing the Tao was legit.

This thread is so good I'm tempted to pin it even though I typically don't like pins.

Reading some other guy's explanations of 'the way things really are (or aren't)' doesn't get you anywhere. Believe me...as someone who likes to read a lot I'd be a Buddha by now if that was truly 'the way'.

I have increasingly come to that conclusion myself. The really weird things is having to practice all these 'yogic' techniques in order to realize there's no you and nothing to attain! Very freaking weird!

Yeah. I've come to the conclusion it is unhelpful in the current age to keep harping on whether something is "maya" or "illusion" or not. All it does is keep people bound up in notions and arguing as to who's 'spiritual lineage transmission/teaching' is the correct one. Or whom has Right View and whom is still a deluded worldling. The real point is to not dwell. Since harping constantly about 'illusion' and 'maya' doesn't help the majority of people these days (it was likely different back when Shakyamuni Buddha was still alive) then let both of those teachings go. Don't pour old wine into new skins. Get that down cold (not dwelling) and it won't matter in the least whether anything is illusion or not. The point will be moot. ***edit*** I also think it's as easy to cling to Dharmakaya and have 'wrong view' of that as it is to have of "God" or "gods". Simply swapping one word for another or even one tradition for another is no guarantee the student/practicer has let go, etc. It might well be that a 'christian' practicer has 'right view' due to their practice and just uses 'God' or "Gods" as a label of simple convenience only while the Vajrayana student still has the notion of a Dharmakaya "God" lurking around (Vajrahidaya used to say lots of Buddhists have this problem - the reification of something that should not be reified - which is what "God" is). Gurunath Siddhanath does something similar. He just calls Dharmakaya the "godless god" - ie - what his students think a 'god' is really not a God at all - ie. - the Unconditioned and constantly teaches his students they have to let go of their "junky mind" (his words) to see Truth.

This is equally true of Buddhists - whether Vajrayana or any other. It's not real but it's not illusion either - to keep asserting one or the other is to still dwell. Even dwelling in emptiness for example is not correct. In the end the expedient means of Buddha Dharma (the raft) must be surrendered too. Anyone who adheres to Buddhism is dwelling and hasn't yet "let go/surrendered" to realize what the Buddha was pointing to. That's why there actually is no Buddha Dharma. There's no Esoteric Christianity either. No Sufism. No Hinduism. They're all things people cling to that eventually will have to be let go of. The real truth is the teaching - all teaching the Buddha did was just expedient means from top to bottom, beginning to end to get people to let go. Once a student 'gets' that then anything could be the thing that leads them to sudden liberation. And they don't necessarily have to be Buddhists to 'get' how to do that or why they should. Master Nan Huai-Chin once said something that made me bust up laughing when I read it:

1. In ancient times, because battles were conducted on chariots, the military power of a state was measured by the number of chariots it possessed. A thousand-chariot state during Master Kong's time was a fairly small one. Note that each chariot was drawn by a team of four horses. 2. i.e during slack seasons in farming. 1. "Abroad" here implies 'at school'. 2. The Six Arts, namely, the rituals, music, archery, charioteering, language and arithmetic.

Is there a Qigong exercise or massage (or whatever) that helps eliminate pain in the soles of one's feet?

.... Cheers to everyone.

Or...to put it another way...how you live is not necessarily what you are...

I typically don't think it is helpful to explain these kinds of things because it just ends up pissing a lot of TTBs off. But... In the beginning - with the first mod team (before Apech, before Cat, before Taomeow were ever Mods) - there was no consensus as to how to moderate threads like this one. However, a slight majority at that time favored the position Apech argued in favor of in this thread (uh..I think it was this thread). That is...freedom of speech is meant for discussions of ideas that are highly unpopular. Nobody needs freedom of speech when most people have no opinion on the matter or whom actually favor it. That's why threads and the posters who've posted anti-female threads, anti-Muslim threads, anti-Christian threads or threads on sexual-identity, etc have been permitted to slide by. The original team could only come to consensus when a thread directly singled out specific individual(s). Otherwise the majority of the team at that time said it was running the risk of installing an Orwellian Thought-Police regime at TTB and the formerly open free-for-all boards would find a lot of members exiting. Thankfully threads like the ones I just mentioned are pretty rare. I mean...this board is mainly for talk about qigong, neigong, meditation and other spiritual cultivation practices so they don't come up all that much. When Apech, Cat and TM came on (all at widely varying times) a 'moderation tradition' on these issues was already in place. Sean is however aware of this issue and it's possible things could change in the future. So far however he has not indicated any changes to us yet but he is open if the current SoP is not working well. ******* And now just my own opinion: I think VMarco pretty much nailed it in this thread (I think it was him). The whole point is for everyone to get beyond identifying themselves with their core everyday 'sex/gender-self' that we all have. Let it all go...the Tao seems to have no problem doing that so maybe we should all take a tip from it and maybe discover if we didn't 'need to be' heterosexual/homosexual/transsexual after all...

I'm moving this thread to Off-Topic as it doesn't really pertain to spiritual cultivation practices.

1Zeng Shen: one of Master Kong's prominent disciples

Good point. Have moved this thread to Off-Topic.

Can't find the Kwan Yin DVD anywhere. Anyone else found it?

Of the DVDs offered. If you could get only one which one would it be? I've done Spring Forest first level dvd and quite like it but have no idea if it works 'deep centers' the way this KYMQ does.

No...it's been going on for many years now. Ugh. It's really limiting my ability to do Zhan Zhuang or any other kind of standing Qigong. For example, I can only do Spring Forest Qigong at bits of a time before I have to sit. Sometimes the pain can be dull...others it's intense. Don't have insurance so going to see a physician about it is not an option. Don't have that kind of $$ to pay out of pocket.

It occurred to me recently I don't know how I would act without the monkey-mind chatter and images that's always there in the background in my head. I'm curious to find out what I'd do. Would I act? Would I just stand by and simply observe life? I don't know.

Balls, heels and all toes of both feet. The arch is ok.

Another question. Is TTC in ancient chinese discussing something that can be known without needing to read at all?

Ok. So the average chinese off the streets of Beijing is not able to read and understand TTC.

Does one need to read ancient chinese in order to understand TTC? It's my understanding that modern chinese find ancient chinese difficult to read and understand. About like asking average english speakers to read and understand ancient anglo-saxon.

Scotty and OolongRabbit did something similar over a year ago. They made posts that many female TTBs found explicitly sexist and the sources used to back up their statements were deemed having a not-so-subtly-sexist agenda to boot. Yet despite there being more women on this planet than there are homosexuals no one demanded there be automatic zero-tolerance 6 month suspensions added to the ToS for making sexist posts at TTB. If your ToS rules were in effect Scotty (turtle shell) would not even be posting here anymore. If there's a double standard going on here (who knows...maybe there is) then it's not just against LGBTs.

I do not have all the answers Seth. Speaking only for myself I do not like any posts attacking others whether it be due to religion, sex, sexual orientation, politics or who-knows-what else. But I am not a dictator. I am not the owner of this board. We actually did consult others before I unhid the thread and based on what we were told - that the statements were of a reasoning nature (presenting their position via reason and logic) - not actual hate-speech - we would not have grounds for taking action.