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Can someone please explain what "subaltern studies" is? GrandmasterP...Dwai is a Hindu too, hence his interest in spreading the book's ideas. ************** Edit: Nevermind...found it on Wikipedia.

I know I'm resurrecting an old thread but thought about it again tonight due to a thread on a philosophy forum I'm a member of. 1. I do recommend the book. It's really good reading and I do like the idea of mutual respect as opposed to tolerance of other religions. I do question his exclusive focus on Christians. I suspect most Atheists (especially those who venerate Hitchens, Dennett, et.al.) would only 'tolerate' Hinduism the way they currently 'tolerate' Christianity (they sure as hell don't respect it). Any religion/spiritual tradition to the 'new Atheists' is ridiculous and scientifically unverifiable - including Hinduism. If it's unverifiable and unfalsifiable they retain the right to tolerate but not respect said religion or spiritual tradition. Aproximately 22% of Americans claim no specific religious tradition at all and a subset of that go as far as to say they are outright atheist. The next largest sect in America is Catholic (20%). 2. There was no discussion on 'Confucianism or Taoism gazing' (or any other ism for that matter). It is strictly and only from the point of view of India's cultural and spiritual tradition. I suppose that makes sense. No one tries to claim Confucianism is a dharmic tradition. Also, anyone expecting any 'dharma gazing' at anything other than U.S. moderate-Christians will be disappointed. 3. There was a moderate amount of 'gazing' at certain Enlightenment philosophers, Hegel and other Western philosophers but not as much as I would've liked to see. The dharma-gazing at those philosophers was the extent of the author's critiques of Europe. Also I believe his painting of Plato and the Greeks "know thyself" as dry intellectualism is misguided and just shows he got the bulk of his research info from the same type of philosophy profs and authors I had in University. That is - people who don't practice qigong or meditate daily and so have zero attainments in those areas and don't recognize Plato's discussion of Forms is from a man who had direct Samadhi attainment. He also believes that the vast majority of meditation practices around the world owe all their practices to Hinduism. India is The Root Source of all meditations (except on continents separated by vast oceans). He did not provide evidence for this which I would've preferred whether in the text itself or at least in copious research notes. But if anyone states other cultures also have meditation practices his reply (as in the text) that I've always seen him give is that they obviously got them from India. I suppose such sparse attention given to anything other than the U.S. is because Christianity for all intents and purposes in Europe is dead. Only 5% of Western Europe considers itself actively Christian. Western Europe is profoundly secular materialist. Also, it sounds like he's part of the Indian Diaspora in America. I gather he doesn't live in Europe so his critiques are focused on American Christian moderates. BTW - he never discusses American Christian Fundamentalists/Pentacostal/Evangelicals - but maybe it's cause those people don't waste their time on Interfaith dialogues nor give a rat's *ss whether any other religion's practitioners feel disrespected at being 'tolerated'. I got the persistent impression from the book he has more respect for the hardline Christian Fundies than for the Moderates. 4. I have been looking around the web to examine the various reactions and it does seem that Malhotra is also subject to being 'gazed back at' by his own fellow Hindus, not all of whom agree with his book (plus accusing him of sloppy research, factual errors and logical fallacies). One that I appreciated is by Dr. Seshachalam Dutta. I appreciate the critiques because I simply do not know enough about Hinduism or India to be able to evaluate Malhotra's Being Different arguments. It takes an "Insider" to know another "Insider". [warning: The following blog is from a Hardline Hindu from what I can tell.] Dr. Seshachalam also examines Malhotra's "intemperate defense" of his book (ie. he can dish it out but can't take it) Here's another by G.P. Srinivasan Also...I began to wonder about Malhotra himself. It seems many Hindus formerly knew him as a longtime prominent Hindu Nationalist but now see him as a turncoat against the very Hindu culture he claims he is promoting respect for. Having said (and linked to) all the above I do actually like the book and encourage others to read it. I don't think Malhotra understands Western philosophy (or rather ancient Greek philosophy) as well as he thinks but I don't really fault him for that. I'm of the firm belief the majority of University Profs and authors don't really get what Plato was about either. They see it as a philosophy and so dubbed it Platonism but I suspect for Plato it was simply a spiritual search for truth to be lived and then transmitted to students for them to replicate. He certainly had direct experience into the form realm - something only somebody with Samadhi attainments can have. I've never heard of a "muggle" (aka the average Joe Beer-Six-Pack) directly experiencing such without also consistently practicing meditation daily or some kind of meditation + qigong. Finally...It may seem I'm being quite critical of the book but then I doubt anyone would be interested in reading a one-liner by me saying, "Hey this book is really good and worth reading". Besides...I'm a sucker for critiques of my own society/culture - especially if they hold the promise of actually using a new or little-known framework unfamiliar in the west. That's why I was kinda hoping he'd done some research on Taoism and Confucianism and included those gazes in the book but alas there was zero discussion on that front. No biggie. Probably unreasonable to expect an Indian who is not a Taoist or Confucian himself to include those 'gaze-frames'. He's Hindu although he never states in the book exactly which Hindu spiritual lineage he's of nor whom his Guru is. Anyway...it's a good read and I definitely encourage others to check it out.

The act of peeing is wu wei.

Holy moly! I recognize this! I had that exact experience once too! Happened on a very ordinary, run-o-the-mill meditation night for me. It's never happened again and to this day can not for the life of me figure out why it did it that night but never has again.

Right. These kinds of misconceptions are similar to why I prefer the Chinese 3 Lucks. Otherwise...if I use the word karma I know I'd better be ready for a long dissertation to try to correct the average American's misunderstanding. Most Americans have neither the time, interest nor patience to hear such things. They just hear the word Karma and immediately have a knee-jerk association of Karma = blaming the victim for why bad or evil things happen to good or innocent people.

Setting aside the theory.... I've noticed in actual practice for most people - unless they really know Buddhist teachings in-depth - the end result is often just as I said earlier. I realize blaming others was not the Buddha's intent in the teaching about karma but most people aren't even sotapanas or arhats, much less Buddhas and so blaming the victim (or intended victim) is often the result no matter that the Buddha didn't speak to this. And this is not unique to Buddhism. I've seen this in Hinduism too. Have even watched Youtube vids of religious Hindus polishing their military style guns to get ready to strike at targeted lower-caste fellow Hindus (*ie. Untouchables agitating for fairer treatment in society) for daring to 'upset the natural order'. All the while (when the documentary producer asked about it) explaining it's those lower caste people's karma because of their past evil deeds. so... Karma has accumulated some unhealthy cultural baggage just like Islam has accumulated some unhealthy cultural baggage with Jihad. This is why I prefer the Chinese way of looking at things. ***edit*** Just out of curiosity...I've sometimes wondered what made you finally decide Buddhism was just not your 'thing' and dumped it for Hermeticism instead? Apologies if that's getting too nosey...

You know...this is so funny you mentioned these books. I actually own a copy of Secret Teachings of All Ages and all of the Franz Bardon books too but have such an incredibly huge pile of books on my "to read before the end of this year" list I've not been able to get to any of them.

Wow. Marblehead sometimes you post the most cool stuff. I'd also like to add that I much prefer the old Chinese idea of personal, terrestrial and celestial luck over the Buddhist/Vedic ideas of karma. Karma has so much "baggage" heaped in that word that I find unhealthy and unhelpful. Not the least of which it can lead to "blaming the victim" because of the idea that he/she is being "paid back" for some evil crap he/she did earlier or in a former life. The ancient Chinese idea of the 3 Lucks takes the blame game out of the equation while still acknowledging there are some things about life we can't change and others that we can.

Well that's an interesting statement Blake made. I was under the impression in his elder years Blake was a critic of many things he'd formerly believed in his middle age. He seemed especially to really dislike Enlightenment philosophy and it's elevation of Reason as the method-par-excellence of discovering Truth (guessing he wouldn't have liked Sam Harris in that regard either since Sam is a huge advocate of Reason). The things I find lacking in critiques like Blake's is that they really boil down to statements of his opinions. I'd rather he'd have "shown don't tell" all the things he states that are b.s about Swedenborg. That's what I'm hoping Neophyte will do in the Articles section of Taobums about JoS/DoS. "Show, don't tell" in an essay all the stuff in Journey of Souls/Destiny of Souls that is hallucinatory make-believe. Because although it may be 'obvious' to Neophyte that it's b.s. it's still necessary to demonstrate it. Otherwise it's just another assertion of beliefs. Which is what forums are full of these days anyway. I am interested in seeing the evidence that one used to come to a conclusion. Even moreso I'm especially interested in the method and pre-suppositions one used to evaluate evidence and thus conclude what's b.s. I rather like the use of Reason to help suss out flaws in presentations although I'm not sure it is capable of being the most excellent of all methods in discovering truth. But then, I discovered ontological naturalism * (which is what most materialists firmly are) is full of so many problems I finally was forced to quit believing in it. I suppose my own position on the matter (JoS/DoS and Swedenborg) is that I won't really know until I die (assuming there even *is* anything left to "know" it's dead. If not...well the matter will be moot). edit: p.s. of all the philosophies and sciences I've ever read - to me personally. I guess if I had to point to anyone else who 'speaks for me' - it would definitely be Sadhguru. The whole reason this thread exists is because the afterlife (and wu wei) is not within people's direct daily experience 24/7, 365 days a year. Hence the arguments back and forth. Example: No one has to teach a child how to pee. It's within his/her direct, daily experience and needs no books, theories, philosophies about it, etc. Not so with the afterlife, wu wei or wu wei wu (or journeys of souls or angels, etc). ************************** *

I for one would be delighted if you would present an article or essay pointing out the problems in those books! TTB's articles forum is perfect for exactly that thing.

Apologies - I do not know of any books that discuss these things.

If you liked Destiny of Souls then definitely pick up Journey of Souls. More in-depth than the Destiny book. And as I said the After Death and After Life processes described in both of those books are almost dead-ringer identical to what was described by the mystic Emanuel Swedenborg. I was quite surprised to see the exact same things being described as what Swedenborg did 2 centuries ago. So naturally I'm going to recommend you pick up Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell as well. It too will put a wonderful smile on your face. The interesting thing is that Swedenborg said there is a natural evolution (er..unfolding) of humans beyond the realms described in Journey of Souls/Destiny of Souls. Swedenborg actually describes *very* high levels of Heaven. Each one more perfect, filled with love and wisdom than the prior and he was often stressing that it's a natural unfolding that everyone will eventually 'return to the Lord'. Obviously since he lived in a Christian society he described things in Christian terms. So Highly Evolved Beings are Angels...rather than say..a Taoist Celestial Immortal, Bodhisattva or Buddha. In fact a lot of what Swedenborg describes of a human's afterlife sounds similar to some Buddhist Pure Land teachings imo (or as Swedenborg would say...descriptions of various Paradises). Zen Buddhist D.T. Suzuki was so impressed with Swedenborg he declared Swedenborg to be "The Buddha of the North". For example, Swedenborg says that everyone will eventually become angels and that every angel in heaven was once - waaaay back in their early unfolding process - a human (and just like what one sees in Buddhism and Taoism - he said the universe is filled with many species/beings besides what we see on earth and they too eventually will 'return to the Lord'). There are 2 kinds of angels. Spiritual Angels (busy perfecting in wisdom) and Celestial Angels (busy perfecting in loving-kindness/compassion/joy). The very, very, very highest of all Angels are perfected in both. Both Spiritual (wisdom) and Celestial (love). Or as *I* would call these very highest of all angels - Buddhas. And the processes he describes of people evolving/unfolding to that state...is nearly dead-on identical to what is described in Journey of Souls/Destiny of Souls.

Just wanted to give everyone a heads up. Amazon has a free ebook download of a fiction novel based on a Chinese theme. I'm not sure it's strictly Taoist as it seems to lean more toward Zen ideas than Taoist ones but thought I'd share the link here anyway. The free offer is only for a limited time. Dreams of the Immortal

Also check out Journey of Souls. I read both it and the sequel and of the 2 the first explains things much better. Also I found it interesting that much that was documented in Journey of Souls is nearly identical to the afterlife processes discussed by the mystic Emanuel Swedenborg.

And Now... We return to this thread's originally scheduled programming.

Engage in even more daily meditation? Go for a very long walk or get up from the keyboard/monitor and go engage in an activity that has zero to do with the forum? I find the above helpful whenever people get offended about something. Also...you could check into the writings of Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, Lao Tzu (although I'm guessing you've already read him), etc. There's some very good advice said by those old dudes for the vagaries of life when emotions get riled. Getting kicked off the forum for using the word silly (or even the words 'that's f**ked up') to comment on an idea? Nope. Wouldn't happen. The Mod system is biased toward inaction. There is often disagreement among the Mod team of what counts as a violation. If the majority of Mods disagree how, what or if there was a violation the default is that no action will be taken. Naturally anyone who believes it's obvious action needs to be taken (or vise versa) and then notices nothing happens (or vise versa) will conclude it was obvious biased modding. Also I often remind people TTB has an Ignore function and it comes in very handy. I've used it myself on several occasions. Your perception is your perception. But just want to point out no one in this thread has actually been suspended. In any case suspension is a big deal and requires the agreement of more than one Mod that that is the necessary and correct action to take for a specific offense. Great! Keep at it! Nobody is trying to shut down discussion of ideas. Although I would suggest to everyone (not just you only) if the topic diverges a lot from the OP in this thread it's probably a good signal the off-shoot is worthy of a new thread. Oh that's typical most everywhere in life. Haven't you ever heard the old advice to avoid talking about religion or politics when in a group of acquaintances? Hostility over differing ideas (most of which said "unknown ideas" are well-known already - just disagreed with vehemently) is a typical reactionary trait. If you discuss ideas that have a tendency of inciting wars (religion, politics, economics) across human history I would think you'd have grown skin thick enough to take the heat here and keep on ticking. I'm not disputing you sense hostile feelings. I don't doubt viator senses hostile feelings radiating from you as well. But I'm not going to suspend either you or Viator (or anyone else for that matter) for heated exchanges about ideas - no matter how deeply offended someone may personally be. He (or anyone else for that matter) could've even said "pairing sin and wu wei is f**ked up" and I would let that 'simply be'. I suspect most of the other Mods would do the same. BTW: That's fine if you disagree with how TTB is modded. Join the club! We've had quite a few threads over the years here about how awful this place is Modded. I always grin whenever I see such inevitable threads pop up. The vast majority of forums I'm a participant of have it in their official ToS that the forum participants are forbidden to ever discuss Mod actions and many of those forums make such threads or PMs a permanent ban-able offense. This is just one big difference you see at TTB and most other forums on the web. But here - we don't do that. And I doubt there will ever be anything like that put in the official ToS. If you disagree with Mod actions well..it just is what it is and history is full of such. There's lots of people who disagree with U.S. Supreme Court rulings as well (anyone else think corporations are 'persons' is about as f**ked a ruling as you can possibly get? ). If you wish to find more suitable pastures that are in line with your interpretation of the events in this thread that is up to you. You are certainly welcome here. No one that I can see is escorting you to the exit. I personally hope you will stay as diverse ideas make for lively (albeit typically heated) debates.

According to Dictionary.com Silly sil·ly    [sil-ee] Show IPA adjective, sil·li·er, sil·li·est, noun, plural sil·lies. adjective 1. weak-minded or lacking good sense; stupid or foolish: a silly writer. 2. absurd; ridiculous; irrational: a silly idea. 3. stunned; dazed: He knocked me silly. 4. Cricket . (of a fielder or the fielder's playing position) extremely close to the batsman's wicket: silly mid off. 5. Archaic . rustic; plain; homely. ****** Note that not all definitions of the word silly are comments about persons. It can also comment about IDEAS. And here's one thing TTB Mods will never do - censor commentary about ideas.

I was just advised on Amazon to avoid Lama Tsongkhapa. Especially something about his 7 point chariot analysis. I seem to remember GoldisHeavy also advising people to steer clear of Tsongkhapa. Can someone explain to me what is so wrong with the Tsongkhapa books and his 7 point chariot explanation? Edit: part of me is suspicious this advice was due to somebody believing their "traditional lineage" of Buddhism is better than other traditions of Buddhism. However..I don't remember GiH ever giving allegiance to one brand of Buddhism over any other either and yet I seem to recall he also warned people away from Tsongkhapa's works.

Can someone direct me to actual printed versions of the Prajna Paramita sutras? Am I correct in understanding these sutras are not the same as the Conze translations of the Perfection of Wisdom sutras?

Hey folks, Wanted to give any fellow gamers on TTB a heads up for a chance to help Obsidian Entertainment fund their next cRPG. Their first goal of 1.1 mil was reached in less than 24 hours. Now they're hoping for "stretch goal" funding. This will allow them to make Mac and Linux versions of the game as well. It will also let them add new storylines, new character classes, and a lot of other new stuff. It will be an original IP in the vein of old-school classics like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape:Torment and Neverwinter Nights 2. There are no plans for console versions. This game will be designed from the ground up for using a keyboard and mouse. Here's the link to their Kickstarter Page. You can pledge as little as $1 all the way up to $10K. You can watch their original Kickstarter YouTube vid as well as their 2nd YouTube Project Eternity channel for updates. They're up to 7 update vids but I didn't feel like pasting them all in here.

Also wanted to point out that Monsanto has been genetically engineering crops since 1985 - when President Reagan was still in office. It's been trucking along with it's GMO programs ever since under both Democratic and Republican administrations *and* Congresses. Monsanto knows how to survive and thrive no matter who controls the White House and Congress.

More interesting info Who Owns Organic? Chart of Organic Brand Owners Chart of Businesses Fighting Prop 37 vs Businesses Supporting it Peer-Reviewed Study in Food and Chemical Toxicology Latest news: And

I'm not sure if these are specifically Vedanta mantras but I found a fascinating page listing many mantras and the qualities and/or blessings they're said to invoke. I found it because I'm considering buying some prayer beads to help me keep track of how many repetitions I do of the Shurangama Mantra. But these other mantras look interesting too.

I looked up the following Self-Inquiry process as done in certain Buddhist traditions as well and found the following on Wikipedia. And here's what someone had to say about Yogani's meditation practices To which Mr Feisty Amazon Buddhist replied:

Alas, no. And for reasons of his rather combative, argumentative nature I didn't pursue it any further. However, if you click on his Amazon profile and then to his assorted (non-Yogani-slamming) reviews you'll see he does have some interesting things to say about a handful of Buddhist books. And one review slamming Donald Kraig's Modern Magick. I was unaware until the start of my problem and hunting around that there was a doctrinal dispute over how to interpret the realization experiences of non-duality/non-inherency. And this seems to be the root of the dispute between the Gorampa guys and the Tsonghkapa guys. With each side typically saying the other side are not the "real" Buddhists. I did find the following book on Amazon: The Two Truths Debate: Tsongkhapa and Gorampa on the Middle Way Has anyone read it? I'm going to see if my library has it or if not get it on interlibrary loan. I have a limited pool of funds for books to portion out (all thanks goes to my mother for that who is the 'funding patron' of my home book collection) and since it is so limited I want to spend it on the Discourses of the Buddha books, Conza's 3 Perfection of Wisdom sutras and Vissudimagga.