JustARandomPanda

This thread has to be one of the most awesome I've ever read at Taobums and comes *very* close to what I've increasingly come to believe not just Buddhism - but almost Every genuine spiritual tradition points to in some way or another. For example...After reading The Sufi Science of Self-Realization and hearing Muhammad Hisham Kabbani's explanations I realized he was describing No-Self as well as Emptiness! Except since he is Sufi everything is explained from a Koranic point of view. Allah = the Tao for example. And Allah is Ever-Merciful, Ever-Loving, Ever-Benevolent, Ever-Forgiving, etc. But he said we all must relinquish our prideful Egos and submit to Allah (Allah = Tao). I swear...change a few words here and there and it was basically the same kinds of truths I'd heard Buddhists point to, Hermeticists point to, Vedantists point to, Tao te Ching point to (wu wei for example)...you name it. The same theme keeps getting repeated over and over and over by all these different traditions. Early Christian Gnostics used to say (if I understand this correctly) the Creator of this world was an Ignorant Demi-urge. That is...our Ignorance of the way things 'really are' is what made us all Fall and we are all in an evolutionary process trying to wake up from Ignorance. This has some similarities to what Buddhism teaches! The theme in the esoteric branches I've studied so far say it's ignorance that keeps not Realizing the Tao and 'experiencing' that we're all separate beings. When in truth there is no separation - we are all One. But they all say that until you ACTUALLY Realize it yourself you won't 'get' it. The real Truth is unnamable, unspeakable and unconceptualizable. And I guess maybe they're right because it sure as hell feels like there IS a me here...there are all of YOU sitting out there...and I sure do feel like I was born and if I step in front of an oncoming car I'll sure as heck die. Sure doesn't seem like any delusion to me! But it's the hallmark of delusion and ignorance to have absolutely no way to know or understand whether it's deluded or ignorant. You can't solve a problem on the same level of that problem. Hence the need for daily meditation or other methods of 'letting go' (or following the way of the Tao or Allah) to discover it. But when I go back to my library and read the huge stack of books in each religion's esoteric (not exoteric) branch they all point to the same things More Pie Guy and Fu Yue say! And have for hundreds of years and they all insist that if you simply do the meditation and alchemy exercises you will realize it too. No one needs to take anything all these esoteric spiritual traditions teach on faith alone (and they don't seem to want you to stop at the 'faith' stage'). You're supposed to verify all of this for yourself.

Notice: Following is my own opinions only. No one else's. He's not the only one. I'm worked up over it too - fyi . And no...I'm not interested in your opinions or diagnosis of my spiritual issues. If you have the wisdom to see what was going on...tell me...why do you persist in fanning the flames even now? Scotty's last post was awesome imo (*high fives Scotty*). You really need to heed Scotty's advice. Put Ya Mu on ignore while you're at it. I suggest Ya Mu also put you on ignore as well. Where did Ya Mu advocate using force? I never saw him trying to advocate pushing Medical Qi Gong through to the public or even Medical Establishment via force. Yep. Presume everyone here has a Temperamental Ego no matter how many years of spiritual practice and dazzling spiritual realizations of the Tao they've had and follow Scotty's advice. See above.

Ah. But Marble...you are not like the Materialists I have been puzzled over. In an odd sort of way I kinda see myself as similar to you in some ways. You do hold that science has discovered many valid things about the universe but unlike the diehard Scientistic Materialists you admit you don't have complete knowledge and that 'yo' includes things which might possibly be forever beyond the reach of science to examine, test or discover but nevertheless might still have an effect on people. I disagree on some things with you on your interpretation of the Tao te Ching but on the other hand...I gotta hand it to you...the way you interpret it sure does seem to lead to a very happy and joy filled life! I see you as a Taoist who puts special emphasis on practicing the Virtue part of the Tao. And I predict someday - the atoms/mindstream that make up Marblehead - will someday Realize the Tao and be a Sage inspite/despite himself. Good question. Daniel C. Dennett likes to 'explain consciousness' a lot. Except he always ignores the Elephant in the Room. How did all our consciousnesses arise in a universe that was supposedly devoid of it prior to Humans arising? Ask him that...and get only crickets chirping back in reply. Yet criticizing such 'untestability' of some of these hypotheses is tantamount to being Anti-Science. Richard Dawkins was once asked to answer this question by Edge.org (and subsequently published in a book) "what do you believe but can not prove". You know what he said? He believes that the entire universe evolved via a Natural Selection algorithm. So even Dawkins is aware he has un-provable beliefs. But then gets upset at Theists/Deists believing something equally unprovable. Really weird.

I myself am torn over this issue and I'm not even a physician. However...I do experience pain. Enough so that some days I have to take Ultram. However, that is only as a last resort. On the one hand I am a bit bummed that something like Medical Qi Gong in all its permutations can be such a powerful pain killer, yet is not all that well known. On the other hand I do not like disparaging Western Medicine either. How many gunshot Qi Gong-ers would choose to use ONLY Qi Gong to nullify their pain while physicians were busy cutting into them to dig out the bullets? It was my understanding even possessing this ability requires an incredibly high degree of spiritual attainment. Exceedingly so. To ask this of the ordinary Qi Gong practicer - much less one who doesn't - is more barbaric than I'd care to think about. And when it comes to long term chronic pain management we're still hampered I think because the entire mechanism of pain is not completely understood. I do like the work of the American Pain Foundation although they take a Western-oriented approach. My fear is that with the rise in Governments clamping down on dispensing of painkillers it will inadvertently leave a lot of people who are in legitimate need of painkillers (so they can lead a normal life again) without any help. Qi Gong is still deemed Pseudoscience by a lot of the Medical establishment. Witness the crusading against it by Stephen Barret and guys like Michael Shermer. When the NIH opened up a (very tiny) sub-branch - Office on Alternative Medicine - the Scientific Materialist guys had a hissy fit.

Acupressure was independently re-discovered in the West several decades ago. For anyone who wants to see how Westerners explain and use Acupressure I recommend the following book (it's awesome!). Obviously since it's Western based it uses body-centric explanations Westerners are comfortable with and understand (blood, muscles, nerves, hormones, etc) rather than 'chi' or other TCM ways of explaining things. The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief - 2nd edition. The entire book has tons of diagrams mapping which points map to which areas of pain and almost all places you work on do not line up with where one experiences the pain. Anyway...it is very detailed so you can go through the entire program with your own body and even eventually use it on others as well.

I have been thinking recently about some of these things. I know the OP was about Christianity but Christianity's hold on power directly led to it's being challenged. And challenging Christianity has directly led to the current most popular secular view today - Materialism. One thing I've been really curious about is how in the world did Materialism - and especially Scientific Materialism - ever come to be the dominant worldview among so many Westerners. I, myself used to be someone along these lines yet I can't ever pinpoint a time when I was first introduced to it. It just seemed to be that everyone else around me believed it and so I kind of picked it up via osmosis too. Michael Shermer, Richard Dawkins and Daniel C. Dennett are 3 people who really push the scientific materialism worldview hardcore. It's like they're trying to raise it to the level of Ultimate Truth and anyone who can't see that it's Truth is an ignoramus. It's always surprised me that they don't see the holes in their own position. Anyway... It got me thinking about opinions, points of view, what is or is not qualify as "scientific", etc and why and how did Scientific Materialism ever get raised to the status of Universal Truth? I found some interesting quotes tonight while searching on this topic: I'm not sure I agree with the above that evolution is 'pseudoscience' but on the other hand they do have a point. Evolution is filled with non-repeatable results (ie..species). And if it's unique in time it can't be tested. If it can't be tested why does anyone say it's scientific? Yet Dawkins for example, would never be caught dead saying Evolution has untestable propositions. How is this any less an example of 'believing by faith' than Christians in Jesus? Here's some other stuff I dug up on Materialism that had me pondering: So I did some more digging and found the following 2 books at Amazon. I'm hoping I can get them from my library as they both sound really good. Anyone interested in the topic should especially check out the 2nd book's Amazon excerpt view. The Origins of Materialism: The Evolution of a Scientific View of the World Tautological Oxymorons: Deconstructing Scientific Materialism: An Ontotheological Approach

I have read many Buddhist sutras and suttas. My interest in Zen is that it seemed very 'hands-on' oriented.

Thanks for the vid. I was impressed with the amount of spiritual wisdom in Sufi teachings. Here is a book I read recently that I recommend to anyone interested in Sufism. The Sufi Science of Self-Realization: A Guide to the Seventeen Ruinous Traits, the Ten Steps to Discipleship, and the Six Realities of the Heart. Wow was that ever a good book. There is definitely deep spiritual wisdom in the Middle East equal to anything found in China or India. Edit: In the last chapter Shayk Kibbani says there are actually 7 realities of the heart but it is up to the disciple to discover this 7th reality on his/her own. He isn't gonna give it away. It made me very curious as to what this amazing 7th reality of the Heart must be.

Found this at Dharma Overground. It's an essay by Daniel Ingram and it really hit me. The day may come when I will need to heed his advice. I post it in case others might find it helpful or interesting.

This is where TaoMeow talked about 'Chinese luck'. A way of looking at the world I much prefer over the unfortunately negative-baggage-laden term 'karma' and have begun adopting this framework in my own life as I much prefer this 'judgement-free' way of looking at things. I wonder...I think Sages of any tradition can achieve complete freedom even while alive - they're the ones who's understanding runs so deep they can change even celestial luck.

This is the WHOLE of Gurdjieff's teachings. They ALL resolve down to precisely the above paragraph. Gurdjieff was very Taoist. Also this is precisely what my daily practices are all about. p.s. I will add if you are not meditating or doing actual inner alchemy practices daily it's highly unlikely you're going to ever be able to gain the freedom Lao Tzu and Gurdjieff were pointing to that all human beings have the potential for.

For the IT Taobum geeks Enjoy! Tao Humor Tao te Backup

:lol: :lol:

Can I hear an AMEN Brother!! Enishi for President - NOW! :lol:

Now compare Joscelyn Godwin's talk on esoteric forms of knowledge in the West of ancient mythic high cultures with another man I greatly admire: Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath on Manu (the mythic progenitor of the Human Race) Both are focusing on forms of knowledge that are considered "unacceptable" and "unscientific" by current day Intellectuals (I'm sure Michael Shermer must be having a heart attack somewhere at Dr. Godwin giving accredited university classes on Atlantis ) But such forms of knowledge would be more acceptable in India than in the U.S. or Britain.

Here is a talk recorded back in 1998 by the awesome British Western Esoteric Mystery Traditions researcher Dr. Joscelyn Godwin. The theme of the talk was Rejected Knowledge ...ie....forms, categories, logic, etc and ways of looking at the world that have been shunned, ignored or otherwise refused and rejected by Western Intellectuals' and Elites' assorted Groupthink predilections. Notice Godwin used Atlantis to show the limitations of the current way scientific inquiry and indeed most western intellectual inquiry is conducted these days (and has been for a very long time). While specifically not focused on dharma or dharmic frameworks I think Malhotra would find Godwin is a kindred spirit. Godwin's book The Golden Thread: The Ageless Wisdom of Western Mystery Traditions has to be hands down one of the best books on that subject I've ever read. I became a lifelong Godwin fan after that book. Edit: A more recent Godwin talk (2008) caption to the above video: Read: Godwin actually is a spiritual practitioner (not just a theoretical intellectual pointy-head) of western 'yogic' techniques (I think that's why he knows damn well the current frameworks permitted in the West - and especially of materialistic-leaning science - aren't the Be-All and End-All of knowledge).

Well as I have said I am ignorant of India and Indian history. It does not surprise me that an academic Groupthink has ruled anthropology, culture studies or whatever else in the U.S. My interest in history lay elsewhere so that's what I studied. I do think the U.S. is on it's way down in the world. In fact...very deeply down while many other countries are on the way up - China in particular but other countries as well. In truth I welcome America losing its pre-eminence in the world as I have long been quite weary of American Nationalism (I'm sorry but that's exactly what American "Patriotism" is in actual practice and I could tell from Dwai's posts to me that's the category he thinks I am "subconsciously" in and I feel threatened by being 'gazed back at' ) and how it drives U.S. foreign policy, trade policy and military policy. Taobums should be glad the U.S. is not up to my sole vote on directing its future for if it was I'd shutter every single military base not in one of the 50 States, cut military contracts by 2/3rds and devote the savings to paying down the national debt and bring all troops home completely. The vacuum left by such an about-face around the world would be most interesting to see. Anyway...it's a good book. But so far I've seen the author's arguments from other sources albeit from sources Malhotra is completely unaware of. He relies way too much on woefully uninformed Catholic and Protestant Intellectuals who have never actually practiced the Christian inner science techniques passed down within Christian monasteries and convents. One of the very few current moderate religious intellectuals who DOES have intimate familiarity with the long tradition of Christian inner yogic techniques is author Karen Armstrong. She used to be a Catholic nun and in an interview admitted the reason she finally left the convent was that she was unable to achieve any success with the Catholic meditation techniques the other Nuns at the convent had. So it's clear that in the few Catholic convents that still exist in the world these inner Christian yogic techniques do survive. But the modern academic environment doesn't promote people based on practices like that. It gives tenure and recognition based on publishing research and so that's what Catholic and Protestant Intellectuals focus on (duh). That's been in place since the turn of the 20th century (and I think in the 19th century as well). p.s. Who in the world gave Malhotra this idea? I have never had that idea of India. My impression was always one of a country where industriousness and intellectual achievement was revered by all its inhabitants. Why else would Indians strive so hard to study the sciences (something I wish more Americans were inclined to do). India gave the world the utterly freaking brilliant mathematician Ramanujan - who re-derived over 100 years of high level mathematics in total isolation all by himself as a 12 year old boy! Some of Ramanujan's equations are so advanced they have still not been solved! Surely my impression of India and Indians is not that off-the-mark from other Americans.

Ok. I spent my lunch reading more of chapter 4 (haven't finished it). As I said this book is awesome and I agree with huge portions of it. I do have some quibbles with Malhotra that I just read. 1. He says that Ken Wilber's Integral Theory gives no credit to the east or India in the ideas that saturate Wilber's framework. In this he is wrong as anyone who listens to Wilber knows Vedanta has heavily influenced his thinking and how he sees Western Philosophy. Wilber doesn't hide this. Here's proof of Wilber displaying his being influenced by Vedanta by interpreting a Western Philosopher in Vedanta dharmic terms. 2. The author (so far) is making much of how Christianity has no history of inner science like meditation. In this he is factually wrong. Catholicism has a long history of using the rosary and things like Hail Mary, Our Father and the Lord's Prayer as mantra's. Monks and Nuns were taught to chant these as mantras with the rosary (aka mala and in Christiandom rosaries also consist of 108 beads) while focusing on the heart-center until the breath shut down (aka Embryonic Breathing commenced). 3. Hesychasm is also a specific form of inner science common in Eastern Orthodox Christendom. Just because it is not well known today doesn't mean it wasn't well known back in earlier centuries. Again it was explained as a form of prayer that led to the progressive shutting down of the senses until all senses and thoughts ceased in order to ascend to knowledge of God in one's heart-center. 4. Judaism has a history also of these same kinds of inner yogic sciences. 5. Islam has a history of inner sciences and Islamic western students engage in them too. Indeed it's managed to be the most well-known of the three as everyone has heard of the Sufis (who have come to the U.S. and U.K.) and I can vouch that they have the same inner science methods/realizations as found in India and China. When I was reading Shayk Muhammad Hisham Kibbani's (who is of the Naqshbandi Sufi Order and has U.S. disciples) The Sufi Science of Self-Realization I grinned from the very first page because he gave an account of No-Self (albeit he didn't call it No-Self but there was NO mistaking that was precisely what he was describing). 4. Current day Western scientists are indeed beginning to meld scientific research with inner sciences. Witness books like Contemplative Science: Where Buddhism and Neuroscience Converge among a host of other books on exactly this theme (convergence of inner contemplation and scientific research). Now granted. The author is focused on what moderate Christian Intellectuals know (and they are typically - outside of Ken Wilber who does practice - are not practicers of inner yogic/qi-gong techniques) and of course currently the average U.S. Christian layman/laywoman does not have a clue about their own religion's inner 'yogic/qi-gong' techniques. America is for the most part a profoundly secularist society (indeed that's one of the thing that pisses off the Fundie Evangelicals so much). Americans bow down to the "god of Capitalism" far more than they ever do or did of Jesus. Europe is by far even more secularist/atheist than the U.S. Less than 5% of the U.K. population goes to church every week. Ditto the rest of Europe. The vast majority of Europeans don't give a rat's A** about any sort of spiritual tradition - abrahamaic, dharmic or anything else. They bow down to the god of Capitalism too. On both continents secularism has taken such a deep hold that there are almost no Christian monks and nuns left and it's well known the Catholic Church has problems gaining new priests. Now...I do agree with the author that non-Aristotelian forms of logic need to be better known. Unfortunately - in societies beset with economic problems that threaten funding of education at all levels I highly doubt such forms of logic will be known by anyone but a few experts in the field and maybe some higher-level mathematicians. Does it cripple the way the U.S. population - including it's intellectuals/elites - view and understand the rest of the world. Yes, I'm convinced it does. I've long mourned the relative ignorance of the average American when it comes to understanding anything outside their little sphere (I'm the sole person in my family who bothers to read. Nobody else in my family does - they get all their info and worldviews from Fox News . I gave up a long time ago in trying to inject different views on the world that diverged from Fox as it only served to royally piss my family off). I haven't yet hit anything in any chapters so far that I haven't seen critiqued in detail elsewhere but then I doubt most people bother to read some of the authors I read (most American's - just like my family - flat out don't read). On Taobums in fact the only person I've seen who reads the same offbeat stuff I do with any regularity is Drew Hemphill (aka Mr Full Lotus ). I am eager to hit the Confucian chapters!

Then you just agreed with me. Ok, I see the angle you're coming from now better. I don't care if he wants to critique Western Philosophy or moderate U.S. Christians. I'm ok with critiquing Western Philosophy as it's had centuries of having exactly such criticisms and I think that's a strength of the book. Using dharma to critique Western Philosophy is a breath of fresh air. Too bad he's not a Taoist and Confucian as I would love to see Western Philosophy critiqued from those angles too (especially from a Confucian standpoint). Master Nan Huai-Chin has done that a tiny bit and I wished he'd do much more. The author's critiquing moderate Christians is ok too. If he wants to gaze at the U.S. which is the whole purpose of the book by all means have at it (every example in the book in every chapter has been from the U.S. so it IS the U.S. he's gazing at in actual practice if not in theory). I'm not familiar with the anthropological works he says people have done to 'gaze at' India but I agree if they did so without practicing dharma themselves then any such research that resulted would be muddled at best and completely misguided at worst. In any case I don't have anything to discuss about the book atm so I shall now retire and turn this thread over to you and to other readers. At least now all future thread contributors know posts need to be cerebral discussions.

Uh... That post wasn't a joke. I genuinely meant everything I said.

*Whistles* Dayum. Lucky you. Man...I sure hope I can find out something like that some day!! You have no idea how badly I wish I had your experience right now. *Heavy sigh...*

LMAO!! :lol:

I was under the impression Seth Ananda was also a father with all the responsibilities that entails.