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What a curious reply. I posted what I did because it's..uh...boring to say "hey, I agree with him 95%." and that's it. Where is there discussion in that? I was giving assorted thoughts on the book as per your request. What were you expecting Dwai? I just realized I don't know what your expectations are of other readers of this book. Don't say you have none because you proved with your reply quoted above you do. Apparently my critiques didn't fit "it" since they were seemingly "subconsciously triggered", need to "take a step back" and were not a "purely academic exercise". What IS a "purely academic exercise", Dwai? Actually...that may be a good question for you to answer. Then I'll know your expectations and how and what you are interested in discussing vis-a-vis this book and it's gaze at the West*. *which I submit is the author's code-word de facto for moderate U.S. Christian Intellectuals specifically and moderate U.S. Christian Intellectual frameworks specifically (because Indian Christians aren't Western and therefore don't need reverse-gazing at).

1. I look forward to it. Especially if he does give detailed examination of the other two. As I said I have not finished it. 2. Neither was I implying that in my critique of his critiques of the West. Interesting that you think that's what I was implying. 3. See line 2. 4. Plenty of Americans don't forget that! I'm surprised you think that of Americans! Especially of me! What does that say about Dharmic-individual's frameworks on Americans?! Uh...every child in the U.S. is mandated to take both U.S. and state history and often-times (as I did) - World History as well. My knowledge of my own hemisphere's history extends to the tip of South America, Native American tribes (Native American history which is mandated by my state), deeply of Japanese history, deeply of Europe (especially of the U.K, Greece, Rome and Byzantium), Specialized university level classes in Soviet history, Soviet and Russian hemispheric geopolitics and political organization. 5. Contrary to what the author focuses on I believe plenty of non-abrahamaic countries/ethic groups have a history/predilection/liking-for conquering and/or ethnically cleansing other countries as well. Witness the Japanese conquest of China during WWII and the rape of Nanking. Japan's unwillingness to ask for China's forgiveness (something only an enthroned Ego [by a might I point out - Non-Abrahamaic / Non-Western Philosophy society] would have trouble doing - especially if it was historical fact these things took place) has strained their official and unofficial relations with China. Not smart foreign policy if you ask me - especially since China is the Dragon on it's way up in the World and Japan is on it's way down. And they BOTH know it. Or see China's own Warring States Period. Or Mongolian Hordes sweeping across the plains conquering, raping and slaughtering all in their path. And anyone who thinks the Native Americans were not warlike doesn't have a good knowledge of Native American history nor especially of Plains Indian tribes. Or how about pre-European Aztecs and their brutal human sacrifices (although they didn't see it as brutal). Ethnic cleansing and Imperialism is not a disease only primarily displayed by the Anglo-European West. 6. I do confess I am very ignorant of Indian history. I know more of Japanese and Chinese history than I do of India. My critique was of the book so far - which has been persistent in it's attacks on Christians (including Christians in India) while Jews and Muslims get (so far) NO commentary AT ALL. Now...if I begin hitting chapters where he starts vivisecting Jews and Muslims vis-a-vis Dharmic societies and ethnic populations in the same way as he's persistently done with Christianity and Western Philosophy my already favorable impression of this book will go very high indeed. But so far the chapters I've read are not saying things I haven't seen U.S. citizen-critics (like authors Joscelyn Godwin and Walter Truett Anderson) level in-depth at their own societies' frameworks as well (so far).

I have a hunch as to what VMarco is getting at. If one actually - in a sustained way - lived for several years FIRMLY with that idea in their head it might not lead to ignoring the danger of say...an oncoming car necessarily (and therein lies the fallacy of many Taoists saying 'emptiness = ignoring fullness in the fullness). My guess is that what it would do is begin to make you start questioning your perceptions and begin to want to pay attention to them in a very sustained manner at all times. ALL TIMES (which I've found is hard as hell to do!) I can kind of infer this by what's happened from it's opposite. The firmly held belief that life is REAL doesn't exactly inspire me to start studiously examining (aka pay attention) to my own impressions. Indeed...it leads to Contentedness...which leads to contentedness with my life exactly as it is - beauty, ignorance, philosophies and warts as is...which is then inferred to be equating to living the Way of the Tao (not so imo..that's knowledge from living one's beliefs...not from living in the Tao like Lao Tzu's Tao te Ching pointed to). Honestly, it's kinda sad I even have to be TAUGHT that it might be a good idea if I did examine my perceptions, my world and my reality. But this lack of examination is one of the unconscious outcomes of the belief that reality is REAL (unless someone suggests to test the belief if the Realness of what you live is or is not the same as the Way of Tao). This is one reason why I disagree with Twinner's stance on religions as being short-sighted. And I'm not even sure I agree with VMarco's stance on religions. If religions keep us 'asleep' then ok religions are probably not all that good for us. But sometimes religions are some of the best sources for conking you on the head and getting you to wake up. Witness how Twinner has confessed he's been influenced by Vedanta (obviously he doesn't have a beef with the religion/spiritual tradition Vedanta like he does with a lot of other religion/spiritual traditions like he does with Buddhism and Taoism).

A few points I would ask the author (or maybe he's answered them in the book? Haven't finished it so wouldn't know). Since dharmic world-views are so flexible why did their respective societies not develop democratic governments such as seen in India today? That was an importation from the West - albeit one Indians (and other countries) have taken to like a duck takes to water and have utilized very well. In that I am glad they are a democratic nation and not an authoritarian one-party nation like China. The author even goes so far as to say current Indian democratic government itself is also 'synthetically' put together. Something I'm suspicious his take on the Orient vs West framework kind of backs him into a corner in taking. Had India devised modern democratic government first I suspect he'd have put it forth as an example of how it's integral, not synthetic. Also...it's clear the author's major gripe is with Christianity and Christians. Especially Christians who are moderates and don't realize the implications of their own beliefs. Because let's face it - only moderates give a rat's A** about trying to get along with other faiths. Those not of this mindset want to see alternative beliefs wiped out. They sure as hell don't hold Interfaith conferences (they have Vmarco's approval on that too oddly enough)~! Non-moderate Christians want to see anyone not like them permanently gone - either converted or else wiped out. Same thing with Muslims (dunno about hardline Jews though and he doesn't mention hardline Jews or hardline Jewish Talmudic philosophy and theology at all). Witness the superiority attitude of the Jewish Fundamentalist Rabbi in Letters to a Buddhist Jew and how Judaism is superior to anything the Buddha taught. BTW - ever notice how Jews like to be defined first by Jewishness and secondarily as anything else? It's Buddhist Jew...not Jewish Buddhist. It's Atheist Jew, not Jewish Atheist. And I think they do it for a reason - to remind themselves that they are God's Chosen People (although anthropologists can just about show every other tribe/clan/nation has made the exact same claim at some point or another but I digress). I'm rather surprised Jews and Muslims get only very scanty token mentions by the author in this book chapter after chapter after chapter after chapter after chapter...etc. He doesn't go into (ie. isn't specifically and detailed focus) into Jewish theology/beliefs vis-a-vis dharma at all and he completely ignores Muslim theology, practices and teachings Muslims give their young. But Christian societies get a detailed chapter after chapter after chapter after chapter after chapter... vivisection vis-a-vis dharmic traditions. In fact I think this minute focus on Christianity in detail and ignoring giving the other two Abrahamaic faiths a detailed vivisection vis-a-vis dharma is a serious and persistent weakness of the book. Furthermore there ARE societies that are non-Western that display many of the same ideas and anxieties of the West. Witness the Japanese and their Ethnic Bloodline Purity Laws. In fact even the Japanese themselves acknowledge they will allow their country to sink into economic insignificance due to falling birthrates rather than open it up to immigration to try to stay an economic powerhouse in the world. If that isn't enshrining Egoic-based laws first I don't know what is. It's afraid of the 'other' the foreigner...the gaijin with his non-Japanese frameworks which is surely due to Ego's enthronement in a non-Abrahamaic country with a non-Abrahamaic history. This is something that astounds me since it's my understanding India has a not-insignificant Muslim population within it's borders. Why attack after attack after attack on moderate Christians but the (almost total) ignoring of Jews and Muslims (the latter who are even more adamant on the history-centrist claim that Islam is the Final One True Religion (all non-Muslims are infidels - period - as per the Holy Koran) and Muhammed is the Final Prophet with the Final Message (Koran, Hadiths, Surrahs) from (transcendent-only) Allah and anyone who disagrees with the aforementioned will be thrown into the Everlasting Hellfire on the Day of Judgement and a legitimate target for Jihad). How can a man who lives in a country with a not-insignificant practicing Muslim population not examine it in detail vis-a-vis dharmic traditions in this book? A true opportunity was missed. The very societies he criticizes (yes..it de facto devolves to a LOT of primary critique specifically leveled at the United States and secondarily Great Britain) were the same ones who evolved national multi-ethnic democratic Rights-Based governments first...not the dharmic ones. They are the ones who gave us quantum mechanics, evolution theory and relativity theory (which all nations now piggyback off of and extend) and invented capitalism to raise the living standards of many people out of squalor (ditto). These 'synthetically unified' societies never evolved nor maintain a caste-system of Untouchables (though he does point fingers at the West's and especially the U.S.'s history of skin-tone based racism - to which I would reply, "pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot") and even fought wars within their own societies to end slavery and the slave trade and were the first to enfranchise women on a truly massive scale (something still not achieved in many societies today). Would this author have had the courage to examine and deconstruct modern Islamic societies as he has Christian societies? I hope someday he will as it is very much needed. I agree with many of the things he says but the fact remains he felt utterly safe in even publishing such a critique of the West (and especially of the U.S. population). So it's not as if the West is incapable of examining it's own frameworks. Had he made this same critique of say...current Saudi society frameworks I'm guessing we'd likely be hearing of a Fatwah issued on his head the same as was done on Salman Rushdie.

I am loving this book. I agree with so much of it. I've only had mild disagreements here and there and even those might be resolved seeing as I have not finished the book. It is a shame this author hasn't met Joscelyn Godwin. I think these two men would get along very well. Much of what Malhotra discusses has been examined by Godwin as well. Except Godwin comes at it from a Western Mystery perspective but he is quite aware of the dharmic traditions too. I really think these two men would get along very well if they knew one another. I really liked the following excerpt: [ all italics are the book's, not mine - SB] And...

Ooh! Lucky you! I hope to get that copy and most of Master Hua's other books as well. His 9 volume translation and commentary set on the Shurangama Sutra / Mantra is amazing. Can only dream of how awesome his 10 volume translation/commentary on the Lotus Sutra must be as well.

....

OMG! You're right! You just summed up every magazine and advert in the west. Ah...the programming. Let's all be good little organized drones for the Capitalist Overlords.

It's thanks to Scotty I was introduced to that book.

Does this mean you now believe there is a Supreme Diety? Or just that there are many other sentient beings in the universe besides life on earth?

I've been reading Sufi writings lately. Sufi Shayks also have their students do many prostrations to empty out the Ego. Indeed I'm convinced Muhammad required it 5x a day in Islam for exactly that reason. To drain out the Ego and especially drain out the Ego's self-centeredness and pride. In particular I've been really loving the book The Sufi Science of Self-Realization: A Guide to the 17 Ruinous Traits, the 10 Steps to Discipleship, and the Six Realities of the Heart It is clear there is Spiritual Wisdom in the Middle East every bit as ancient as those found in India and China. On the very first page I grinned because I immediately recognized Shayk Kabbani describing No-Self realization (although Sufi's don't call it "No-Self" but there was absolutely NO mistaking he was describing No-Self)! Tibetan Buddhism also has a prostration practice. I think it's called Ngrondo. There seems to be something activated by bowing that helps the ego dissolve. However, I was under the impression one needed to be part of a lineage for it to work. But maybe it works even for those who do not have a formal teacher or guide of any kind. I'm pretty keen on trying anything that will empty out both thoughts and the ego. I remember reading something from Paramhansa Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi. "Don't do what you want, then you may do what you like." I dream of the day of having that kind of freedom.

I have a book by the same author as the OP is interested in. I chant the Esoteric Lakshmi mantra daily and am soon going to be adding the Cundi (aka Zhunti) mantra as well. Mantras do 2 things that I know of. 1. If you focus your listening attention on the mantra it will slowly begin to quiet your mind. 2. Mantras can tap into the vows of the Beings who made these mantras and so you get a sort of double effect. You get the benefit of listening repetition quieting your mind but you also get the benefit of vows aiding you as well. 3. Choose one mantra you like and one you don't to chant daily. Oftentimes chanting the mantra we don't like is the one that's actually doing some heavy lifting going up against negative things in your life. The dislike is the 'friction' from applying something positive like a mantra to the negatives in your life. I have one of Mr. Ashley-Farrand's book/cd combos and definitely recommend them. They will be Hindu mantras so don't expect to find any Buddhist/Jewish/Sufi, etc mantras. But the mantras do work. Here's to your success.

According to Bill Bodri Vedanta is a modernized version of Zen. If you want to understand old Zen masters and Zen stories he said it helps greatly to study Vedanta then go back to studying Zen.

This thread has deviated from discussion of the book. I'd like to hear more about what Dwai thinks about it (or anyone else who is reading it).

and which natural state of being would that be... as a human body, as a mind, as a soul, as a spirit? Religion is part of form and to deny form is at least problematic. *sits back eating popcorn waiting for Twinner's answer*

Good idea but I'm not even sure this is possible. GoldisHeavy has often spoken on this subject and I tend to agree with him. Because from my personal experience when I toss one idea overboard another lurks in the shadows to take it's place. I'm just unconscious to the replacement until something jars me enough to make me see the new (unconscious) lens. This is where awareness watching awareness watching itself begins to be useful. Turn the gaze around and focus it back upon prajna itself. But that is a high level of skill. I'm not sure most people who post at Taobums are at that stage. You'd have to have broken through every single one of the skandas before you can begin to do that. Twinner...when you finally come into some extra money go ahead and read the book. You might find it interesting.

Thanks for this! I'll go check it out though a full fifteen minutes of Zhan Zhuang is a bit too much for me at the moment though someday perhaps I'll be able to do it well. I'm about to start reading the Initiation into Hermetics so I'll be interested in seeing how Chinese 5 Element Theory might enhance my understanding of Bardon's material. I also found the following book by Rawn Clark. A Bardon Companion. Thanks! This is exactly what I hope to achieve. I'm a bit like the OP. The energy goes up but it doesn't come back down. I'm hoping to correct that with enough practice. Prior to reading Bardon I'm going to read: Wu Xing, Five Elements

I didn't know about this. No wonder Ya Mu says he sees sick chi radiating off grocery store ground beef. Is Pink Slime in the Beef at Your Grocery Store? Sigh... Well I am trying to move in a more Vegetarian direction. This just kinda adds impetus for that.

I know! The egg thing has baffled the heck out of me! I simply do not understand it because in practice I have duplicated everything an egg possesses and in theory it should work! But the supps don't freakin work the same way. What gives? I have no freaking clue so I am not trying to put anyone down or say that your PoV is somehow less valid or accurate than mine. I just don't understand what's going on. I got on this kick because I'm trying to grow my hair very, very long. Like down to where one's butt and legs join. Think Lady Godiva. On the Haircare boards I'm a member of they call it "Classic Length." So yeah..vanity is the reason I got interested in doing these experiments. Believe me...us long hair devotees are avid Self-Made Lab Rats. We are always trying to figure out a way to make our hair grow faster or thicker or grow back if it's thinning (yes, there are guys on those boards too), etc. Nothing has worked like eggs. And they don't even have to be fancy organic or omega-3 eggs! They're plain ordinary, battery farm, factory-farm eggs. Now...I don't buy those kind of eggs anymore. I try to stick with the range-free eggs if only as a salve to my conscience when I can. But that's *why* I first began actually running these kinds of tests. If anyone wants to join me (male or female) at the Long hair board I go to check out LongHairCommunity.com

Look at this nice little Abstract for one of the papers I pulled up a few seconds ago. As I said: The World is Catching Up with the U.S. - Even in Okinawa! Here's the results I got when I did a query for Meat +Health Ok. I apologize about the earlier post in saying Mexico is fatter than the U.S. I swear I read somewhere a few weeks ago that that was true. However, this just goes to show I should track down my own sources and try to keep them. I can't find that source anymore. The only source I found was this one: Obesity Stats per Country Thing is - I can not find a date on that chart so I have no idea how current it is. It may be brand new or it might be several years old. I can't tell. Here is the World Health Organization's own webpage on the topic.

Ok. Here's for encouraging EVERYONE to READ for themselves both pro and con. Few things in life are ever black and white so there's good arguments on all sides in this thread. Here's what I pulled up just a few seconds ago on PubMed I used: Calorie Restriction +Life Extension for the search query: Here are the Results for today: Enjoy! p.s. Senescence is fancy "science-speak" for "growing old".

This is true. Of the nutrients we know about. That's the biggie. We don't know about everything that makes up our food. Believe me Seth. If I knew of a way supplements could duplicate the results I get from eggs I'd try to find a way to afford it. But NONE of the components of eggs when taken in supplement form have the same result as simply eating eggs. I mean...part of me wonders why this isn't one reason why a lot of Nutritionists and Dieticians say you should get most of your body's necessities from real food. Otherwise we could all pig out on crap food but make it "nutritious" with massive doses of a variety of nutrients and phyto-nutrients. But nowhere have I ever seen that posited as a way to make a junk food diet become a miraculously nutritious one. Meh. That's true of most of Western Civilization. According to the latest WHO statistics - believe it or not - Mexico has now surpassed the U.S. as having the largest percentage of both "fat" and officially medically-defined "obese" people within a country. And they are nowhere near as rich a country as Australia. New stats coming out of France show they're not the amazingly slender people they once were. The U.S. was the Canary in the Coal-Mine but the rest of the world is fast catching up and in some places - like Mexico - is now surpassing the U.S. population in unhealthy eating and food supply and thus showing the results in their waistlines. Check this latest book: The World is Fat: The Fads, Trends, Policies and Politics That are Fattening the Human Race It's gone Global. Unhealthy eating is creeping up on all but the most remote of indigenous populations. So you can't just lay that solely on either unhealthy animal products diets nor unhealthy vegetarian diets. Not when our PETS (including horses and donkeys!) world wide are getting more obese right alongside the humans. Well...if you got any new supplements, fats, phyto-nutrients, omegas or whatever that are in eggs that I haven't tried shoot me a PM please. I'll see if A ) I can afford it or B ) have already tried it. Believe me...I've tried just about everything I can think of so I'm all ears on this one for me personally. Maybe. Maybe not. I still maintain Science does not yet know all of what makes up our food. Hell...it still denies the existence of Chi simply because no instrument has been devised to detect it yet. I don't think any Inner Alchemy practitioner much doubts the existence of Chi (and certainly none who've gone through a Kundalini Awakening doubts it) despite Science saying there's no evidence it exists. There are way too many variables in the "can" statement. Why can no supplements I've taken not duplicate the effect of eggs on my hair and nails? The stuff I've taken is supposed to be Turbo-charged. I convinced my mom to pay for the Uber Expensive Life Extension vitamins, minerals, omegas, GLAs, ALAs, lecithin and phyto-nutrients, etc (expensive cause LEF has them made in the U.S., not China like the majority of Supplement companies these days). Man...nothing duplicates eggs. I have run out of variables to test. Seriously. If you know of one that's new or that I haven't covered already I'm all ears. I've got 4 cabinets full of life extension vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids of all types in my icebox, creams with extracts in airtight containers (air degrades nutrients), etc. That appeal is open to ANYBODY. You got a nutrient in eggs that might do the trick stick it in this thread or PM me and I'll see if I've already tried it for several months (since hair grows so slowly/faster with nails though). If it's new I'll try to see if I can get some and try it out. I also remain a skeptic of Scotty's answer. However, he has good info. But maybe he can suggest some egg supplement that I haven't yet tried that will deliver the result of eggs. Now...whether it will be as *affordable* as eggs is another matter but I don't mind seeing if I could try something out. And as to the countless studies... A) Check out Beyond 120 Year Diet - has a very good end notes section with exactly the type of references wanted. That's one reason why I liked that book so much. You can actually track down and read for yourself the papers, research the author is drawing from. Of course the book is more pleasant to read than a bunch of old studies but still the sources are good. But if you don't trust us Scotty why not do what I do? Just start using PubMed or Google? I've had people surprised I find out weird stuff but really all it takes is just starting to throw words together with a + symbol in front and coming up with weird combos to string together and poof - you find out stuff you never would otherwise. It's good for people to read up on stuff for themselves. Anyway, as good as Beyond 120 Year Diet is it's now 'old news'. The author died many years ago and it hasn't been updated. But I'll swing by PubMed and see what I can dig up on the newest submissions for Calorie Restriction studies. I can recommend some excellent resources for someone else who is a fan of wanting to begin to try to be a self-made lab rat and take advantage of the latest research. Go check out some of these resources Scotty (I am assuming you don't know of them already, if you do my apologies for presuming too much). 1. SENS.org 2. Fightaging.org 3. Longcity.org - scroll down to their section on Calorie Restriction. You can get lots of research oriented stuff and people APPLYING that research in a NEWS-YOU-CAN-USE fashion to themselves and their families. Very cool. I'm a member of their forums. 4. LEF.org - this Org used to be more cool than it is now. About 10 years ago it got overrun by a bunch of peeps with the 'we're only in this for the money' mentality and they no longer really adhere to their "R&D and Report" vision they once had. But it can be a good place to look for getting an idea on stuff then you go to some of the other places I mentioned to get the real low-down on what research really says both pro and con. Some more good resources for info on Nutrition I'm a huge fan of the following books: Biochemical Individuality <- anyone who is arguing with Ya Mu NEEDS to read this book PRONTO. I promise you. The SCIENCE of this book is what YA MU was trying to get across to all the naysayers. and the followup The Wonderful World Within You p.s. Biochemical Individuality is pretty dense reading. It helps if you understand at least basic chemistry. And especially chemistry as applied to biological organisms. It also helps if you understand research design and statistics. But assuming you do...that book is amazing. Believe it or not...that book was written for a lay audience. Ah...science must have been better known back then among the populace than it is these days.

Of course the above does not teach about Gnowledge as VMarco might put it.

Ah! I just can't resist tossing this into the thread and sending it deep into Off-Topic Territory And here's Dorothy Sayer on the subject The Lost Tools of Learning (the whole essay is about the deterioration of education among the masses - aka: all of US *cough* *cough* )

That would be madMUHHH who posted it: I hope my Library has a copy of that book.