JustARandomPanda

Ooh fascinating! I confess I have not read this thread beyond the first page or two. Looks like I've got a lot of pages to wade through. This quote reminded me of something I read on the web by a man critiquing assorted modern-day Materialists like Daniel C. Dennett. He said one of the biggest problems with such Materialists is that they always studiously avoid the Elephant in the room: How did Consciousness originally arise in a Universe that supposedly was devoid of it at the start of the Big Bang. Anyway...reading that quote from GiH made that critiique pop back into my head just now. Guess I now gotta get busy wading through this entire thread.

Oh cool. I certainly volunteer to help with spam intercept and destroy duty.

Interesting. I actually agree with this. At least speaking only for me. Mainly because A) I like to read a lot and B ) what I read invariably gets turned into an intellectualization or concept. And if it's one thing either of those is not it's actually experiencing something. This has created a dilemma for me oftentimes. How far do I read in order for said Text to render assistance in actually experiencing heartmind and how do I tell when it's pushed me over the edge into too much intellectualization and conceptualizing something? At the moment I think I tend to do the latter. Mainly because my reading has outstripped my attainments. Which creates yet other problems. 1) Builds up an expectation of a way a certain attainment should be when maybe the real experience ends up being something partially or even completely different. 2) Builds up impatience for attainments. I find this a very hard one to not give into! I read or hear about heartmind and damnit I wanna know it for myself. The more I read the greater the desire. The greater the desire the shorter my patience. The shorter my patience the harder it is to sit for the longer periods of time probably necessary to actually finally experience heartmind. Do I think those texts are harmful in most cases? I'm guessing probably not. But for me I can't seem to escape the expectations they build and the fallout thereof. I think Ralis's objections to you CowTao have some basis in fact - at least for some people some of the time (like me) and maybe all of the time (quite possibly me).

This is beautiful Marble. I agree with you. I, for one, would be interested in hearing you expand upon the second paragraph even if you couldn't speak well to it.

OK. This is getting interesting. I have another question for you CowTao and Ralis. Actually the same question. I am a beginning meditator. I am still at the very beginning stage of simply practicing of staying aware of my breath. I do Anapana. Now Master Nan has stated in Working Toward Enlightment that until one reaches the stage of thoughts settling down (no more monkey mind) talking about any other sort of attainments and levels is a moot point. Practing being kind to other people is a good starting point also but that's manifesting compassion as opposed to Compassion (Bodhicitta?). Has either one of you achieved this stage of thoughts settling down?

Well CowTao that was an interesting post. Something to think about. The thing it didn't address was how to tell when heartmind is manifesting in myself. I'm talking about practical matters now. I take it most cultivators think they are manifesting Compassion when they are only really manifesting compassion. (if you get my drift). And thus mistaking one for the other. If so, how in practical terms can someone like me tell if I'm manifesting Compassion as opposed to compassion?

This is not heartmind?! WTH is then? When I felt compassion it most definitely came across as having primarily a feeling component (and secondarily as thoughts arising of wanting to end the other person's/animal's suffering, etc). I can not imagine compassion any other way. I've even read that there are studies showing that people who do not have this feeling component display errors in their rational, ordinary, everyday thought processes. If heartmind does not have to do with feelings then what exactly is it and how would you even recognize it manifesting?

I look forward to hearing more about this particular topic from you. I have not yet awakened or opened my heartmind (I think) so I'm very interested in this subject.

So glad to see you here Mat. I so wish you would post more often but I understand you probably are busy spreading the 4 Immeasurables to the beings around you in everyday RL. I, too, do not wish to see the end of traditional Buddhism. I've read it said that when the Dharma-Ending-Age begins the first of the written wisdoms to disappear will be the Shurangama Sutra. I own an 8 volume set of the Shurangama complete with line-by-line commentary by the Master Hsuan Hua. He made 18 Great Vows. Some examples: "I vow that as long as there is a single Shravaka in the three periods of time throughout the ten directions of the Dharma Realm, to the very end of empty space, who has not accomplished Buddhahood, I too will not attain the right enlightenment." "I vow that as long as there is a single human being in the worlds of the ten directions who has not accomplished Buddhahood, I too will not attain the right enlightenment." "I vow that as long as there is a single animal who has not accomplished Buddhahood, I too will not attain the right enlightenment." "I vow that all of my vows will certainly be fulfilled." and after the 18 he ended with I vow to save the innumerable living beings. I vow to eradicate the inexaustible afflictions. I vow to study the illimitable Dharma-doors. I vow to accomplish the unsurpassed Buddha Way. note: I have no clue of what a Dharma-door is but it must be important if Master Hua made a vow about it. Now, if it were not for Master Nan and his commentary on other Buddhist Sutras/Suttas I would not understand the great significance of what Master Hua is doing here. Apparently, if one cultivates deeply enough one will become aware of a special Vow Form Realm. Vows are important! Very important. When you make a vow a special form realm comes into being and will have certain effects on you. No one will achieve Buddhahood who is not capable of making and keeping vows. And making cavalier vows (and breaking them) is something preferably avoided if possible. But if traditional Buddhism disappears - this kind of wisdom will also disappear. I suspect very few people will be able to cultivate to a high enough level to discover this Vow Form Realm on their own without having great amounts of merit built up. I suppose it is possible and in practice that's precisely what the Buddha himself wanted us to do - discover it for ourselves. But if the traditional teachings disappear people may make cavalier vows and break them (because vows are no longer taken seriously in today's society) and could possibly be doing themselves greater harm for their future than they know. And if the Dharma-Ending-Age begins this kind of wisdom will disappear.

Ralis, could you speak further on this subject? How does the heartmind discover one's real nature?

Are you saying that people who advise to just "drop beliefs" are by default reifying a belief in a "non-conceptual self" that exists inherently? At least that's how I'm understanding your statement.

I get so weary of always reading people telling other people to just get rid of their belief systems. I don't know HOW to get rid of my belief systems! Part of me thinks you'd have to be freakin' brain dead before you get rid of belief systems. The moment I think I'm 'gettin rid' of a belief system there's some other model that just gets swapped in it's place. When does it ever end? So...because of certain experiences I've had...I can definitely say I'm no longer a Materialist. In it's place, due to what I've read are an assorted hodgepodge of Buddhist and Taoist beliefs that have filled the vacuum left by Materialism. Yet everyone advises to just get rid of those belief systems. It's freakin hard folks! Have any of YOU succeeded in getting rid of all your beliefs? If so how many years did you have to cultivate in order to live Belief-Free 24/7?

I love me some Fanatical Buddhists! LOL. I learn a lot from the exchanges and it is always entertaining to watch! Kick back and eat me some popcorn I'm gonna have a show! I kinda sorta consider myself a baby Buddhist as it's what I know the most. Ok. Well actually I know the most about exoteric Christianity simply because that's how I was raised but next to that would be Buddhism and lately I've been getting into Taoism. I presume this post is talking about VH as he's the only fantatical Buddhist I know. He definitely doesn't fit the mold of what I consider a run-of-the-mill Buddhist. But that just tells me that the Tao contains more variety than my preconceptions typically hold. A more typical Buddhist who posts occasionally on TaoBums is Mat Black. I think if people want to see how many Buddhists behave they should look to Mat Black's posts. They are overflowing with wishes for the happiness and liberation of all sentient beings and pretty much stick to just that.

What a fascinating subject! Are we alone in the Universe. Well that's one thing that has scientists stumped. There's also that old problem. If they were out there why don't we see them now? We ourselves are a space-faring civilization. The universe is far older than we are. Surely there are civilizations out there who are also far older than we are and who discovered a technology for space travel better than anything we currently posess. So why don't we see them now? If they were out there, wouldn't they be here already?

Actually that is still spot on K. I am weak and I know it. I've had problems with this all my life. All my life with men similar to the way you see Non here with women. He is the self-described 'beta-male'. I was pretty much and still am the 'door-mat'. Stong, chi-balanced women find me irritating as hell cause I get walked all over by manipulative and domineering men. Chi-balanced men usually didn't stick around either as they found me as irritating as the women. That's why I've been a bit puzzled by that 'Why Are Western Women so Messed Up' thread. It's as if there aren't weak-willed/deficient Yin women in the world either. Go figure. Anyway...I've been looking into TCM about it. Lots of interesting stuff there. Things like being deficient in Liver and Kidney jing...stuff like that. Here's one bit of info that made me curious if TCM is right. One day I was sitting in Taco Bueno (a fast food joint similar to Taco Bell ). All of a sudden I felt a massive amount of jing leaking from my eyes. I knew it was Jing because it was definitely sexual energy. It spiraled out of my eyes just like the pattern of a hurricane or vortex. I freaked. I am not able to feel my energy body very well at all. It's one reason why I've always sucked at Qi Gong and stuff like that. Well at the time I thought this was a good thing. Hey! I'm feeling Jing! Something that happens very rarely. Not only that but TONS of it. Why this must mean my cultivation practice is having a good effect! Right? Nope. Imagine my surprise when I later read that the eyes can be a major conduit for leaking one's Jing! It's just that most people aren't able to feel it when it happens. I usually can't. But I felt a major blast of it that day. It now has me wondering if this hasn't been going on for a very long time but I just haven't been able to feel it because I'm so poor at detecting these higher vibrational energies? Anyway I've since resigned myself to accepting that I will never become a strong-willed woman with balls of steel like Shaktimama. It's just not me. I can kinda understand Non in a way when he despairs about being always told to buck up and just be a ballsy alpha male because that's what women want. If he is like me I suspect there may be some sort of energy deficiency stuff going on or even karmic stuff going on that makes such a path exceedingly hard for people like him or me. And of course I don't forget that a lot of the make up of our particular personalities is genetic-based. Not that we're 'hard-wired' but that certain personality tendencies are genetic and thus less under our conscious control. And now... Deep breath... Having said all of that I apologize for spinning this thread OT. Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

I do believe in such a thing as cause and effect. I'm also willing to believe this idea may extend further out than most Westerners do. Just looking only at myself, my attainment (or rather lack thereof) my guess is that I'm a spiritual fetus. I probably do not have many lifetimes of cultivation. In fact the thought has crossed my mind that if reincarnation is true then since I have pretty much no attainments of any sort I haven't really had many or probably even any attainments in prior lifetimes either. Maybe this is the very first lifetime I've even had any remote interest in cultivating to the point I'm actually putting time and effort into it. I confess I am a fan of Bill Bodri despite the fact that he's quite opinionated and outspoken. Also a fan of Bodri's teacher Master Nan. I do get the impression from reading Master Nan's books he's not as opinionated as Bodri himself but he does offer guidance to seekers. One thing Bodri (and I presume Master Nan originally) says is that if one cultivates correctly then the process is non-demonational. Proper cultivation (at least at the earlier stages I don't know what he thinks about the higher ones) will yield the same results no matter whether someone is a Buddhist, a Jew, a Hindu, Sufi or even an Atheist. Another thing Bodri says is that reincarnation can be proven to one's self if one cultivates properly and deep enough. And this will happen no matter what religion you subscribe to or even to any religion at all. Proper cultivation will yield predictable results. I suppose this is one of the things that I find attractive about Buddhism. That the Buddha - when you strip away a lot of the historical trappings, etc - seemed to be a practical guy. He said something to the effect of "if you do A,B,C you will get results X,Y,Z. But don't just take my word for it. You must do the work yourself to find out and prove it."

I just finished Moral Relativism: A Short Introduction by Neil Levy and The Complete Works of Lao Tzu by Hua-Ching Ni. There is so much to contemplate from both books.

Where are you hearing these lectures! I would love to listen to them. Maybe we could discuss them afterward?

I'm so happy. I finally after all these years aquired my own copies of Tao te Ching/Hua Hu Ching and the Annalects of Confucius. This is the chapter I'm on currently. This translation is from Hua-Ching Ni (his was the only copy that included Hua Hu Ching which I also wanted) Chapter 7 Heaven is everlasting and Earth is perpetual Why so? Because they live Without holding onto any consciousness of Self. Therefore, they can endure forever. One who does not separate his being from the nature of universal wholeness lives with the universal virtue of wholeness. He, too, dissolves all conciousness of self and lives as the universe. By putting himself behind others, he finds himself foremost. By not considering his own personal ends, his personal life is accomplished. He finds himself safe, secure and preserved. Because he does not hold a narrow concept of self, his true nature can fully merge with the one universal life.

I know Sufism doesn't seem to be talked about much on this forum compared to Taoism or Buddhism or even Vedanta but I was busy reading The Commanding Self by Indries Shah and just had to post this here as it might be of benefit to others. It's a short little Q&A bit in the book and I found it speaking directly to me. I hope you enjoy it. As always thoughts, comments, etc are welcomed. From the book The Commanding Self by Indries Shah *this may be an ongoing thread of mine. As I come across more little Q&As in the book I might post other quotes that I think may be of interest to others like it is to me. So little is discussed about Sufism here and I am genuinely interested in it since reading Daughter of Fire. Sufis seem to be very much about love and compassion. As much as Buddhism from what I can tell.

Good question. Here's how I see it. I don't think 8 years of assorted practices ever goes to waste. It's doing something to the subtle body and mind even if you haven't achieved the Tao or whatever. I liken these practices to be things to enjoy in the moment in and for themselves. We don't get to see how water drops wear mountains down but nonetheless they do. And it all happens despite evaporation and despite the fact no one ever gets to see obvious changes personally no matter how long lived. Here's another thing to consider. Do you consider every single person you meet on the street - including thugs and criminals - to be the equivalent of an enlightened sage like Lao Tzu or Shakyamuni Budda? If you do then don't do anything anymore. Go be an ordinary person and forget about doing anything the long traditions from China, India, Tibet or where ever recommend to do to awaken. Having said all of that I like you still struggle with wanting a certain outcome. In my case seeing the Tao or Primordial Awareness or Clear Light of Mind, Enlightenment, etc etc etc. So I certainly understand where you're coming from. One thing I wonder about. Where ever did I get the idea that "forced actions" are somehow also unnatural and in vain? I wasn't born knowing how and being able to walk upright. I had to practice with persistance as a child to do what I do effortlessly, naturally and without thinking now. Why do I think that's what's needed for a child somehow doesn't apply to me as an adult? Forced actions happen all the time in life. Surely that's gotta be saying something about the Tao as well.

To hold someone to that high a standard I think would cut out many charitable acts and giving. I myself am nowhere near to being a selfless saint or boddhisattva. We all have to start somewhere. My money sure does count to a banker or creditor no matter what my motivations/expectations are and they're quite eager to take it. I'm pretty sure it equally counts toward facilitating charitable work for a charity. Likewise with time.

I am no expert on Buddhism but the one thing about it that appeals to me is that it is an empirical religion. That is - if I'm not mistaken - Shakyamuni said something to the effect of don't believe anything without testing it out yourself. I liked that he set forth a system that was saying, "If you do A,B,C you'll get results X,Y,Z. But don't take my word for it. Do the work yourself and test it out." I like that empirical emphasis. It is so refreshing. Especially as I was raised Christian where everything is "you just gotta believe in Jesus and everything will be hunky dory." And yes...Daniel Ingram kicks butt. I own the physical book of his Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. Other teachers I would say are great for spiritual seekers are: Ven. U Vimalaramsi - his explanation of Anapana is the best I've ever seen. Thanks Adept for sharing it. Because of your introducing him to me I ordered Vimalaramsi's translation of the Anapasati Sutta for my library. Nan Huai-Chin - his 3 books - Tao & Longevity, Working Toward Enlightment and To Realize Enlightenment are fantastic. I have many great spiritual and esoteric books in my library but if I could have only a handful on a desert island these are the ones I would choose above all others.

I love Anapana. It's the meditation practice that I've by far had the most success with. I start out the first few minutes doing the 6 Healing Sounds very softly a few times per organ each. Then I'll settle into Anapana which to me is very Taoist in approach. I've had far more success in slowly softening my thoughts with Anapana than I ever did with Shamatha (focused concentration meditation). Like Harmonious whenever I did Shamatha focusing on my nose it only seemed to increase my agitation and monkey mind. On a few occasions it would make my face ache simply because I could feel chi starting to congest there (looks like I've got some blockages to work out in that region). After doing Anapana for a while I'll then shift to being gently aware of my Lower Dantien. That way I know I'm cultivating both the mind and the body. It's very relaxing and for me rejuvenating.

Interesting post. I agree with some of it. The only parts I don't agree with is simply because I don't have much meditation attainment and so have no experience one way or the other by which to assess it. So anyone who wants to say "SereneBlue is not enlightened" is fine by me. But that's why I am spending more and more time meditating. Because GiH...as good as your posts usually are I don't just automatically swallow the Kool-Aid you (or anyone else) hand out anymore - interesting though they may be. I'm going to have to prove/disprove the things you post for myself. But that's just me. Other People's MMV.