JustARandomPanda

Oh absolutely I agree. I see him as being very "Gurdjieffian" in that sense. He's attained a greater level of Realization than myself by far. I believe I've chosen well for a Teacher. I was just stating the things reading Gurdjieff has stirred up within me. It's certainly made me appreciate Santi, Susan and Tao more! Furthermore because of Gurdjieff I finally realized simply because I may not understand why something should be done a certain way doesn't mean the Teacher doesn't know what he or she is doing.

Oh..well that's a bummer. I, for one, would LOVE to read a book by you. Especially an updated one. Maybe I can poke and prod you into writing some updated blog posts instead? I've been thinking about your Gurdjieff and Taoist Yoga article. It explains not just Gurdjieff himself but also why he believed the Taoist interpretation about (supposedly) achieving immortality (whether physical or spiritual) was best and most accurately understood and explained by alchemical Taoists. P.S. Thanks Lino and Little1 I'm going to ask everyone.... How do you yourself determine if someone has the 'realization(s)' they claim they've had or have? p.p.s. I just picked up this book at a used bookstore - Daughter of Fire

TaoMeow, Yes, I think you're right. My problem of course is that I don't know how to tell whom is merely using this method as a teaching tool and whom is just being nasty-tempered to..well..just be nasty-tempered. I suppose ultimately it doesn't matter. Both can be used to learn from. I just find it odd to see two or more Awakened Beings (assuming for the sake of argument they actually are) trade blows on message boards. But then again...reality is often weird like that. And Drew... Great article. That's one reason why I wish you'd get up off your Full Lotus-loving butt and write another book. Or at the very least collect all your articles and publish them together as a PDF. BTW - Ralis...did you notice how Gurdjieff's teaching about how to attain immortality (and rejection of automatic reincarnation ala Tantric and Buddhist beliefs) is identical to the Taoist one?!!!

Ralis... I'm going to answer you in a new thread as I don't wish to derail this one further. Questions, comments, critiques of course are always welcomed.

The only Gurdjieff authored book I own is Meetings with Remarkable Men. I'm currently alternating between Oupensky's In Search of the Miraculous and Nicoll's first of five commentaries on Gurdjieff. I only have the first 3 as Nicoll's books (found in a used bookstore) have long been out of print. I can definitely tell some major alchemy influences (both western and taoist), Hermeticum influences, modern chemistry (circa 1920's) and...to my great surprise...Sufi influences in Gurdjieff's teachings. I may make a separate post later about some of the things I've been thinking over. Never have I come to appreciate the unique wisdom of actually DOING as from studying Gurdjieff. If it's one thing I've learned it's that watching what a sentient being actually DOES - that is, Actions in the Physical World - always telegraphs the true state of his/her Being. There's a lot of hot air on message boards because - well - that's the nature of message boards. This one in particular seems to attract a lot of self-appointed Saviors. Here's how I see things in this thread so far: Any advice handed out from one being to another presupposes the following: A) that person assumes he/she is doing something useful without knowing if it is or will be, in fact, true or not. B ) Inherent in this assumption is the belief the recipient is working on a random and shallow basis (of which the advice-giver exempts from himself/herself at the moment they give out the advice - else, why give the advice if this presupposition is not self-believed) C) that the advice handed out is useful D) that the recipient is not already working at themselves in a skillfully meanful way E) that there is no other skillfully meanful plan which the recipient of said advice might take part in F) that one can start in the middle (that is - they do not subject themselves to a prior very long* examination of their own triggers and conditioning that have predisposed them to being, acting and thinking along certain ways) Food for thought I've been pondering as of late... edit: * For Gurdjieff very long meant decades

Thanks for the links. I have never understood why so many people at TaoBums hate on Chia so much.

I'd like to put in a good word for Gurdjieff as far as western mysticism goes. Gurdjieff work combined with Bardon work have a lot worth learning and putting into practice.

For those who can do this - more power to you. However whenever I do this - focus on the FEEL of the airflow at my nostrils - my eyes involuntarily also roll down to lock on there. Which ALWAYS ends up giving me very painful headaches and eyestrain. I've spent months trying to break this seemingly stubborn involuntary habit to no avail. I've grown tired of fighting it. I tossed in the towel. Focusing on the breath is not for me and I certainly don't consider it THE "foundation" practice. It's just a very popular one. The only thing foundational imo is the act of concentration on a single point itself. It probably doesn't matter what one focuses one-pointedly on so long as you find a method that allows you to do so without debilitating head pain. I got the toe thing from a Bodhri book. Yes...the White Skeleton is available as a pdf but Bodhri also has a book you can get at Amazon - 25 Doors to Meditation - and it's chock full of meditation techniques - of which White Skeleton and the left big toe (probably because that accesses the right side, non-analytical side of the brain) are a part of it. Anyhoo...I'm having success with left big toe concentration like I never did with the breath.

Well I guess I'm going against the grain of everyone's advice in this thread. I never found following the breath to be effective. Primarily because one follows it over the entire path as it enters and leaves the body. Which is not one-pointed concentration imo. Instead I focus on my left big toe and just stay locked on like a laser beam as much as I can. When my thoughts interrupt - and they come through at high speed and with a vengeance - I re-direct the lock-on to my big toe with equal speed. I found out later that the Buddha himself said focusing on the left big toe is an excellent meditation practice.

Witch is gone. TaoBums has lost a true treasure.

There is one thing as a beginner I would like to make in defense of all beginner practices no matter the tradition, source or lineage. It's my understanding that there is no such thing as getting "too good" at the basics.

*whistles* Dayaaaam. Susan you are so cool! I want some of whatever Mojo it is you got!

If it takes being pregnant and having kids to come into a woman's full, true power I am doomed. I've never had kids and am already manifesting signs of dropping estrogen levels. But you may be right. So far it appears I am the only female at TB who has not awakened Kundalini. I also don't have orgasms. I'm sure the two are linked.

Well hell. I jinxed it. I've been trying to do it all day today and it's back to square one again - no emotion whatsoever...just nothing. And I'd only just started having a tiny bit of success this past week. And I've never been successful at summoning up confidence. I eventually tossed that emotion by the wayside. Confidence is a lost cause for me. As for doing SS while doing other KAP practices...that skill make take several years - assuming I can get SS going again.

Well I'm signing up. Although...*sigh* it looks like I am going to have to get serious about dumping my addiction to Diet Coke. Yeah..yeah...I know the stuff is evil. I don't need that lecture yet again. My family reminds me constantly of how evil it is.

Holy moly. Just finished this thread and wow... I am not going to comment on anyone else's post but I would like to share my story at least and how it relates to KAP. It's going to be a bit long and seemingly off topic but it does tie into KAP (eventually). So... Lately I've been reading up on Gurdjieff and his Work - primarily through Oupensky and Nicoll. A few things about some of the things I've learned have changed how I view things - particularly work on myself. One of the main things Gurdjieff taught is that one must struggle to 'awaken' all of one's latent potential (yes, I mean that in both a 'clear view' Taoist/Buddhist sense and a Kundalini sense). He had one aphorism in particular that hit me like a thunderbolt. Learn to like what "it" does not. In Gurdjieff's Work he explained humans have several centers but of these 3 are primary - instinctive (i.e. moving) center, emotional center and the intellectual center. He did mention the sexual center but says that the other 3 centers rope it into doing their "bidding" - with the over-emphasized one typically eating the lion's share of the sexual center's energy output and the other 2 getting the left-overs. And now I understand at last why Pietro (um..I think it was Pietro) once posted the Chinese say that "Yi eats Jing". Too much thinking burns through jing and chi without producing anything but more thoughts. Which are gone almost as soon as they come into being. In humans that have yet to "awaken" fully (become a type 5 through type 8 human) typically one center is over-emphasized, a second one is scrambled and the third is given only a miniscule chance to be expressed. In my own case I quickly identified that I have always drastically over-emphasize the intellectual center. And that intellectual center is eating the hell out of what jing / chi I have left. Well unfortunately for me this has resulted in two things that I've been able to identify so far. One is that well...I'm pretty damn lazy. Which must mean that the center that gets almost zero energy or chance to express is my instinctive/moving/getting-stuff-done center. The other is that since all this thinking, pondering, whatever-you-want to call it is eating up my jing/chi-whatever - until this gets fixed (which I am attempting to do via daily meditation) it's going to take a TON of Juice to attain even a 3rd of what more balanced practitioners have at their disposal. Now here's where that aphorism hit me. Learn to like what "it" does not. That is...since my natural inclination is to think and not do then the thing I MUST do is..well doing. My intellectual center is in control and it sure don't like doing. It likes thinking and will seize control at the drop of a hat if it detects energy starting to flow to and through the instinctive center instead. And unfortunately because my intellectual center still eats the lion's share of jing / chi and because the instinctive center is the one that's very nearly shut down (it's the source of willpower to get stuff done in Gurdjieff's way of explaining things) I'm going to have to struggle to practice way more than the average KAP student just to achieve even a third of what they attain. And since Santi keeps stressing you must DO he actually lines up excellently to be the kind of teacher I am most in need of. I need that kind of teacher regardless of whether I like him as a person or not (although fortunately I do. ) Learn to like what "it" does not. For there is where true growth for me will come. To struggle against the way I've always been. The very thing Gurdjieff said we all must do in order to forge true mastery over ourselves. According to Gurdjieff he said we don't really have true free will. It took a while for me to understand what he was getting at because he means it a bit differently than what is typically thought of by the term. Until a human is able to give ANY response or NO response (read: be wu wei) completely and totally independent of ANY and ALL exterior conditions, triggers, events, states, someone dissing you, hollering at you, insulting you etc he/she does not have true free will in the Gurdjieffian sense. One or the other of the centers will respond in knee-jerk reaction. Always. If you think you are in control test your belief - try watching the Watcher as it's Watching both itself and everything else - especially when doing or responding to anything or anyone at anytime. So...what does that result in for me? Struggle. I have to struggle everyday to do KAP and I have to make sure I do it every day several times a day. Some people when they set their mind to something they can pretty much do it and they don't have to struggle much if at all to get stuff done. My mom is like that. Unfortunately I'm not her. And so I struggle everyday to do what comes as easy as eating pie to most other KAPers. In spite of my inherent tendency to "think-don't-do" which I struggle to overcome daily and despite the fact a ton of jing / chi still gets eaten by the intellectual center (while everything else gets the left-overs) I have been having some good results from KAP - hands down better than any system I've tried to date. For example: Since taking Santi's class I can now feel energy moving up and down a front channel of some sort almost 24/7. It goes on even in my sleep! It feels just like a big ping pong ball of energy constantly bouncing back and forth from my heart level to my lower dantien. Also everyday now I feel a tiny trickle of energy start up on it's own and run in a macrocosmic orbit. This happens approximately 5-6x per day. I'll literally be doing something like reading a book or walking and "poof" this orbit starts up out of nowhere. I'm also *finally* having a bit of success when it comes to Secret Smile. Not much but it is noticeable and that makes me happy. And in the past week and a half the bottom of my feet have been getting hot! That has never happened before ever - not ever. I'm always icy cold even in summertime. There are other things that have happened but I don't post about them anymore - most especially because I'm trying to practice non-attachment. I confess sometimes I read these forums, read of all these really amazing things other TaoBummers have achieved - especially other KAPers and I get frustrated that I'm not having these amazing experiences that they are. They're off combusting new suns in the galaxy into being with their chi it's so strong and here I am still just at stage one. So I'm still struggling with trying not to get attached to experiences or attainments or whatnot. It's tough. Most of the time I don't succeed but I still try to practice non-attachment to results. Anyhoo...I haven't awakened Kundalini but then considering what I'm up against I think I'm doing pretty well. I thought I might toss my experience into the hat, plus the bit of what I've learned vis-a-vis Gurdjieff. Studying Gurdjieff has had the really odd effect of making me appreciate what KAP is doing in some amazing ways I never have before. I wonder if perhaps some people might be a bit like me. One of the centers is getting over-expressed and hence eating up a ton of shaktipat juice instead of getting the chance to be directed or used in a more useful manner? p.s. The reason Oupensky abandoned the Work in his old age is that he complained he never attained much mystical experiences from it. Then I found out the reason WHY he never achieved much. He was like me (except far worse) - he substituted thinking for doing. He never did Gurdjieff's sacred dances or movements for example. That's like a dieter complaining exercise doesn't work to help lose weight - all while their exercise equipment is gathering dust... well Duh..what'd you expect Oupensky?

OMG!!! My BF showed me this earlier today and I nearly had a heart attack I laughed so much. It's part of an entire series! I give you The Legend of Neil And here's the first episode from Season One.

Here's a of a guy using it. This guy makes it look easy as butter. It's NOT! It hits EVERY - and I do mean - EVERY - major muscle and tiny stabilizer in your core HARD. I've never felt the like - not even on a stability ball. Edit: even better than the first imo.

Holy cow. Have any of you tried using one of these? I have one but never tried using it until today. Decided to get it out from gathering dust and it kicked my ass after only 5 minutes!! I never would've believed something so simple could be so unholy hard!!! *flops from sheer exhaustion* Edit: Pardon...the one I have is this one - with the foot straps so you can do various exercises with it with your hands or your feet. It came with a DVD of a full body workout with just the wheel. The trainer says he used it with a football team. Made them strap their feet in then literally do plyometric pushups from one side of the football field to the other and back. Yikes!!

More info on the James Randi Foundation. It's an eye opener.

Someone posted this in a practice journal. Thought it might be of some interest to this thread. "What is enlightenment, no, I mean really, like what is it?"

Someone posted several months ago that there is a popular science book out that explains where current understanding is at the moment. I can't even remember the guy who posted or the name of the book he recommended. But one reason he pointed to it was because it clearly showed the demarcation between what scientists currently know based on being backed up by experiments and where it has moved on to theory because we can't or haven't yet proven these hypotheses and theories experimentally. Does anyone remember what that book and who the author was?

Just dropping by to say hi.

Well...I think maybe it is this one. However...it's been so many years I have no idea if the current edition is like mine. I think mine is approximately 10 years old. Something like that.

Those are very good points I'll grant. I would - like most - conclude it is a sign of clinging. But if I examine HOW or WHY I arrived at that conclusion I end up with the conundrum I talked about in my prior post. It doesn't mean I'm right (or anyone else is for that matter either - yet). It just means I'm confused and am hoping someone can clarify.