JustARandomPanda

Expand a little bit more on what you mean, Ok... I'll try. I suck at logic analysis so I don't doubt someone who's spent years studying philosophy and math will correct me - however I'm just musing my confusion aloud. Humans tend to jump to conclusions. They take a quantity as a signifier of quality. Essentially anyone who points to VH going on and on and on in post after post about D.O. will likely draw the same conclusion you did. That is, that he's mistaken the map for the territory and thus it's a sign that he's clinging. But notice...the foundation is a quantitative observation. Why? Because the number of posts he keeps making about it will be the evidence presented. This is THE key piece of evidence presented for without it the argument put forward collapses. Where in this quantitative observation can a qualitative conclusion be drawn? It's like they are two separate sets. If I were to draw it as a Venn diagram they would be as two separate identities or signifiers. If you say they are the same Venn set then you must show logically why people make that one set into two. Why does the human brain and language recognize the distinction of quality and quantity? But where and how does the association occur? Because strictly speaking - I don't see how the Set of Quantity acquires the identity or aspect of the Set of Quality. Somehow the person using this argument needs to show me where that jump was made - Logically. If they can not show this then they have -weirdly enough - just used a rational process - logic - to show that there are some conclusions humans draw that can not claim logical processes as their foundation for said conclusion. And by extension the possibility exists that some Truth or Falsity claims can not be derived via logic. Here's the weird thing... As I said, humans actually make this seemingly irrational leap all the time. It is, in fact, the foundation of Economics 101. When something is more plentiful humans tend to value it less. If something is less so it usually (though not always) is more highly prized. This is again making the leap from quantity to quality. So again...I am wondering where our brains make that leap. Because as it now stands it has not yet been logically shown that VH is clinging to D.O. even though a huge number of people are likely convinced he is. Again...I am just musing my own questions aloud. Edit: If I have misunderstood the essence of what you were saying I apologize. I confess I am not always quick to catch on to what point people are trying to get across.

I don't doubt you inferred this. What I'm wondering is where and how you drew the conclusion of a quality from a quantity. In other words...how is the quality derived from a quantitative analysis?

But I take it this is the crux of your argument with VH. That he has mistaken the map for the territory. Can you show logically step-by-step how and where he did so that I may see this error too?

If I call a toothbrush a "toothbrush" it does not follow logically automatically I've mistaken the map for the territory no matter how many decades I may call it that. Or do logicians say that I have?

Just thought I'd pop a note here that Jamie Andreas has actually turned practice time on the guitar (or presumably any other instrument) into a focused concentration exercise while playing short sections of whatever you are working on - although I'm not sure if she (she was a he back then) realizes the parallels to formal shamatha meditation. I have her original edition and it's VERY good. It wasn't until I started meditation these past 6-8 months however that - when I went back to read it over again - I suddenly realized why her kind of guitar practice worked so well although I've been very lazy about applying it for the past few years. Looks like she's got a lot more stuff now compared to when I bought the first edition many years ago. Check it out if you play an instrument. GuitarPrinciples.com

I have been contemplating where my need to debate and argue has always come from.

If I ever attain psychic abilities I already know how I want to use them. I would want abilities that heal the land. Walk in poisoned fields, wade into poisoned ponds and seas, revive plummeting bee and amphibian populations, revive the dying coral reefs, walk among animals and plants sickened by the poisons humans keep pumping out and.... Heal Heal Heal Like Tolkien's elves where ever I passed I would make the land and all therein green, growing and healthy again. I think somewhere in my heart lives a druid and May Queen.

Who would we be right this minute (kairos) if none of us were having these thoughts?

I think I'm a "heavy".

I disagree and will make suggestions as I see fit. They were just suggestions after all and will remain so. You are free to disagree. I could have actually taken action against a number of people but didn't and won't. Tao99 I am making this request respectfully directly to you - PLEASE Put me on Ignore. Because I'm not going to change and I'm not going to back down. And no...don't worry I'm somehow going to retaliate against you for expressing your views or disagreeing with how I mod. That goes against my own personal ethics of trying to be fair and impartial. Just so everyone knows...my ignore suggestion was directed to nobody in particular and to everyone in general. I've been able to confirm with Marble that you can ignore mods too. It's all good in the woods. Best wishes to you Tao99.

I mention it because TB has a lot of un-civility going on for the past few months. It's not like it's only been a few weeks or within only one or two threads. It's been going on for months now. I confess I think most people - when their emotions overheat - would rather hit Reply and attack than hit Ignore and keep it that way toward the person who inspires their venom. Sorry if I'm bringing the thread down with the reminders but I disagree that they are unhelpful. If you don't like me doing it - put me on Ignore. Problem solved. Edit: p.s. I did want to say the majority of this thread has been civil. It's all good in the woods. I guess I'm just trying to prevent anymore unhappiness from going around. It's silly I know but I like it when people can participate in a debate and still be happy. Oh..and Ralis...if you're reading this edit...I'm going to try to find that book you linked to. It looks intriguing.

Just a friendly reminder to everyone: As a precaution - please use the Ignore function if you find someone's posts constantly rub you the wrong way and can not respond without being civil.

Pardon. I am unclear as to what you are saying. Are you saying you agree with Ralis and disagree with my statement you quoted? I confess I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to debates.

I'll have to go do research then as this was not what I was taught. It was my understanding that though Hitler was from a Roman Catholic home he rejected it. But even if we toss Hitler out that still leaves Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot as examples. My point being that people are able to use their beliefs to support genocidal wars no matter whether those beliefs are religious, political, economic or philosophical. Anyway...I don't have any answers to this. I just find it disingenuous for Atheists/Agnostics to not acknowledge that genocide has happened by people who promoted their brand of beliefs too.

On the question of whether religions have been a cause of suffering and violence throughout human history I'd like to point out that agnosticism and atheism don't have a good track record either. Some of the greatest genocides known to human history were done in the name of atheism and agnosticism. Hitler Stalin Mao Pol Pot Just a few examples to name. If religions (and by extension their adherents) are going to be accused of causing genocide then agnostics and atheists likewise must own up that the track record is no better under their alternative.

You must post from a Zen-Taoist cave Tao99. I get plenty of criticism and counter points to my PoV from my family and BF even when not on a forum! But I agree - if one can not control one's desire to change others then silence is sweet.

I still think the Ignore button is the appropriate solution for everyone to adopt in this spat. The alternative is some heavy-handed Mod interference... a place I and the others are very loathe to go.

I'd like to hear more too. I've been so busy studying Buddhism I've not had the time to check out Taoism but I plan to do so soon. I'm sure I could learn many things and it might give an interesting and new perspective with which to view Buddhism. Also I would recommend Marble check out Lieh Tzu if he hasn't already.

I suggest we all start using the Ignore function more often. The board provides it. It helps in maintaining calm for all concerned. When there's someone who constantly rubs me the wrong way that's the first place they go - my Ignore list.

In a word, No. I practice KAP and meditation every day as well. But practice without study of texts is a blind man behind the wheel. Even monks in monasteries (I've read) have debates to help clarify their understanding. This is my online monastery debate forum. It is precisely debates and study of texts like these that led me to the realization of what Dependent Origination is all about. And as a result I now have a tiny dharmakaya tigle - the nila bindu - as VH has confirmed for me (a bit of a story on that). The debaters in this thread I give total credit for granting me some real-world accomplishments to push me on the way to being a realized Buddha - in this lifetime.

Doh!

Slavery survived for 100+ years in the US and still goes on around the world today (I was disturbed to discover Dubai*, for example, is a huge slave-owning / trading / exploiting nation today). It took women well over 100 years to earn the right to vote here. It may well take 100-200 years to turn the ship around in Family Law because men are fighting common law passed down from an era when women were chattel property of men. I would still advise men to keep their heads up and keep up the fight. Don't lose hope Enishi. There are plenty of good women out there - many of whom you do not find attractive in the least but would love to be with you. You'll find women whom you are attracted to and they to you too just the way you are. Learn from my mistake. Don't indulge the hate. edit: *pardon...remembered it was Dubai...not Abu Dhabi that the expose was about.

In my opinion, getting passed "the Arising & Passing Away" phase is the #1 barrier to get through in meditation. All else , to me, is daily practice. Welcome home. Thank you. Apparently I've been in it for many, many months - probably well over 6. Ingram has helped me understand why every method I tried wasn't working. And the advise to just STFU isn't necessarily helpful to someone who doesn't know the A&P is what they're dealing with and that the usual concentration methods don't work at that time. I erased the post you quoted and put a certain person on ignore whom I am currently unable to treat with equanimity. If I can not rationally deal with the ire inspired by this person then I need to gain some distance and fresh air.

What are third leg powers?

Hopefully men will work to change the system. I would support them fully in making things equitable. It is the nature of humans to take advantage of a situation that favors them - especially if the other party doesn't say anything. It happens in family. It happens in sports. It happens in careers. It happens with both because it's a human trait, not a gender one. I have recently seen some social research that indicates the real reason for the low rates of marriage among blacks is not so much because black women don't want it but rather that marriage is rejected by unusually high numbers of black men. In other words...the fruit of buying into the us-v.-them victim mentality for many of them. Except this time the pain gets passed on to the most innocent beings of all - children. And now it's being actively promoted to all men - see that NoMarriage.com site as a case in point. A site by a man who's hate for the women in his past has metastasized to the point he now has to evangelize. Believe me, I recognized my own. If men feel the system is unfair they need to work to change it. As someone who is a bacheloress I have no problem with someone wanting to remain single all their life. There are many people of both sexes who do so happily and responsibly. What I do confess to having a problem with is being single yet still making babies (and that goes just as much for what I feel about women choosing this route as I do for men). p.s. wanted to state I am not ascribing blame to men. It's unproductive and doesn't solve anything. I was just - I guess in a not-so-good way - stating that I think those websites hurt more than help men get over their pain and to not let it be passed back to the women they're seeing. I think the same of Women-are-Victims websites.