JustARandomPanda

Yes...this is one of the phase changes I talked about in my Ego Inflation thread. Since Ego finally sees the mechanics of how the personal level of phenomena work but is itself still operating it then inflates - this is the stage where one experiences the Divine. It hasn't yet seen through phenomena on the infinite, macro-cosmic scale. so of course it will ascribe this as being Supreme Divinity - God, Allah, the Supreme Creator, Tao, etc.

That may be true - that they have legitimately experienced being wronged by women. But it's just as much a distortion of the truth to let their past color their view so that they have this negativity toward the class known as "woman" (and vise versa, women about men). Claiming you love women (or men), all the while subscribing to the ethos of victim class v. abused class like those websites promote just ends up creating more pain for the person who buys into it. Instead of healing his/her baggage they are reveling in the power of their pain. What's even sadder imo is when the person who buys into that victim mentality unknowingly or knowingly transmits their pain onto the person they're seeing. I used to have a load of anger built up toward men. I've had some pretty bad relationships in the past. It took me a while but I finally realized the anger and hate was a cancer. It was eating me alive inside. Even worse was realizing it was coloring how I viewed all men. Not just the men whom had caused me to feel the rage and hate but it - like cancer - was starting to metastasize to ALL men. This was the fruit of "buying into" the story I'd told myself that the men I'd been with who caused me pain (including physical) were pieces of shit. It was an object in motion that stayed in motion and there was no countervailing force to my victim story. And so it started metastasizing. Not only was I dying spiritually inside but there was real danger of a good, loving man being hurt by my 'story' - I would be passing on the pain unconsciously. Then HE would in turn have rage and anger against women. And so the cycle of pain never ends. That's what those websites are doing. Instead of offering healing and hope they are reveling in the pain and power of their victim story. And like cancer, if held onto and used to define one's being it will metastasize. Just like how it has metastasized to the class 'woman' in those men who've attached to their own victim story. It takes a lot of slow, not always rewarding work to walk away from the sheer power bestowed by one's pain and hate.

Damn, some of those websites really let their passive-aggressive anger against woman show don't they? Still..if men are happy hanging part of their identity on their grievances with women then it's their business I suppose.

And yes... Just to add the disclaimer. I do realize that the Map (explanations in this thread and in texts) is not the Territory (actual realization in practice).

All of the above confirms my current understanding of what I'd posted earlier. It's why awareness exists without an Awarer - for infinite numbers of mind-streams. I noticed how all the bolded text is just saying there's Dependently Originated Awareness. It's lucid, clear, empty and ever-present. Yes...because D.O. never stops D.O.-ing. D.O. is D.O.-ing both others and itself. Now I see why VH keeps saying that to see Dependent Origination is to realize the dharmakaya. However...just to be certain that I'm not somehow missing something or misconstruing something I am going to study the above post carefully and think on them for a while.

I am still curious... Does D.O. apply even to Luminosity (including the D.O. one 'light-ray/dusts' for others - does it also help 'light-ray/dusts' itself to be [along with, of course, everyone else's contribution])? I'm having a hard time trying to explain what I'm getting at. I guess...somehow I keep thinking D.O. applies even to luminosity. From what I can tell D.O. emptiness can't be stopped even by luminosity. D.O. - well...it D.O's even itself! That's why I asked if D.O. has a certain recursiveness to it. If so I can see here why Lucky's insistence on the primacy of Mind would work. He's going on the recursiveness of D.O. and calling it luminosity. This effect would dissolve Rang tong and Zhen Tong's seeming separateness. It would be seen for the non-duality it is. It would also explain how we still have free will despite the pull of karma. That's my guess anyway...but perhaps he could explain further. By the way - I just realized this is not unlike David Bohm's theories of a holographic-ness to the universe.

Man...I'd be happy just to know someday what a plain ol' run of the mill climax is like..much less internal, orgasmic body multiples. *heavy sigh*

I disagree Lucky. Look at that statement again > and this: Do you see why VH has a problem with your interpretation? Spin it all you want - those statements are a dead give away to a Solipsist view. In other words...that statement above falls prey to the exact same problems all critiques for Solipsism do. Your interpretation of Dependent Origination falls prey to the Brain in a Vat dilemma. VH can sense it. That's why he keeps telling you you (and me too!!) should go read more Nagarajuna. Edit: I see you've answered further.. Perhaps you've clarified it. It's just that from the point I've read so far your arguments fall prey to the Brain in a Vat problem of philosophy. But...will go check out the rest of what you've written.

Hmm... What about what I concluded? Might it be that D.O. has a recursive quality to it as well for each mind stream and this is the luminosity?

Something else besides.... My understanding of the Alaya consciousness. It also originates dependently. The only reason it continues before and after death is that all these infinity of sentient beings continue being the light-rays and atmospheric dust that reflects "my" alaya consciousness. This "D.O.-ing" operates whether I 'understand' it or not. Understanding isn't necessary for it to keep working (just like how modern physics doesn't need my understanding it for it to keep reality working). And of course one's alaya consciousness does it's share of reflecting D.O. back to everyone else. Including - freakily I concluded - to 'ITSELF' as well! Maybe this is what is meant by luminosity?. So again...no substance was logically necessary (as in the sense of necessary and sufficient cause). I couldn't even use the "eternal continuity" of the seedbed consciousness to slay D.O. Man...how disturbing is that?!

You know something else I've been contemplating recently when thinking on D.O.? How it has some strange parallels to modern physics. I am no physicist or mathematician. What little I understand comes from "science-for-the-layman" type books. But it's my current understanding that physicists can't see the tiny sub-particles/waves or whatever their experiments are with. They can only infer these sub-particle/waves existence by the side-effects. In other words...if they actually stopped looking for an ultimate whatever and just examined what they actually find...they'd see it's exhibiting some behavior that strangely corresponds to my understanding of D.O.! No ultimate substance! Can only be 'detected' via side-effects! I've also found D.O. to be a good antidote for my own Ego and Narcissism. No Allah, Yahweh, Jesus Christ, Brahman, Supreme Creator, etc...all the preceding is unnecessary (Occam's Razor). If I must thank someone for my life and being then I must give that thanks to those to whom it properly belongs...which means... All of YOU. And every sentient being that has ever existed or ever will besides. So I would submit that understanding of D.O. doesn't necessarily always lead to nihilism. Just because we may all come together like a rainbow (or sub-atomic, unfindable wave-particles!) doesn't mean our being has no meaning or value.

I could not find a Prasanga Madhyamak at Wikipedia though I did find this entry. I don't understand why a complimentary (i.e. co-operative) view of both is still considered coarse and extreme. What would a refined and unextreme view be experienced or viewed as? I have come to see life and mind as operating like a rainbow. There is no substance called rainbow. It's like an illusion brought about by the interplay of light rays through the atmosphere. The rainbow "exists" - we do see it. Nevertheless it is illusion-like. The difference with it though is that the rainbow resolves back to light rays and atmosphere. Which materialists will point to as that being a substance. In D.O. I realized that not even the illusion-like beings and mindstream and processes (example: yin/yang and chi) resolve back to 'something'. It has this 'illusion-like' coming together always. It's never-ending. Try as I can to find a place to slice it with a knife and say "ah hah...here is the end". I can't. I can't find it. There is nothing that stops D.O. from the possibility of being true all the way through no matter where or at what "I" look at/perceive/experience, etc. Throw everything at it - D.O. dissolves it all...including Mind and Divinity. "I" exist only because every other being/mind-stream is acting as the light-rays and atmospheric dust for me to be. "I" come together in the same way as a rainbow does. And I'm just as inherently empty of self-substance like the rainbow. And likewise "I" do the same for them. And it all resolves...all these mindstreams acting as each other's light-rays/dust...to...emptiness. When I first 'got' this understanding a tidal wave of gratitude to all beings and the universe seemed to well up in me out of nowhere. Very freaky! Go figure... This is my understanding right now. If that is coarse and extreme so be it. I'll get to the right view eventually in my own good time.

Another piece of the puzzle just fell into place with that statement! Thank you Xabir!

uh...wth does that mean? Sorry...I'm a Dummy. I need a step-by-step example please of this "self-inquiry".

I have both Working Toward Enlightenment and To Realize Enlightenment. Oh..and his Tao and Longevity. Plus Bodri's 25 Doors to Meditation. I've been so busy with KAP and simply trying to get simple concentration meditation going that I've not bothered to read any of them (well...except for the 1st chapter of WtE and the 1st chapter of 25 Doors). I did finish Tao and Longevity though. From what I've read though I think Master Nan's books are very worth reading. I like the idea of trying these things out for myself so I've been thankful for all of Drew's threads and links he's provided and the assistance he's generously, personally offered me. I'm going to start trying to do some stretching exercises so I can eventually sit full-lotus and fudosi. Right now the best I can do is half-lotus. I'm not very flexible unfortunately. Still...I'm going to try. Psst...he already has. You can find it at Amazon or Lulu.com.

Spoil sport. *tousle's VH's hair*

Ooo!!! Can anyone read my chakras and tell me what Gurdjieff would classify me? I'm not joking. I'd really like to know. Also...what is a number 2 and a number 3? Is that like being a 2 or a 3 on the Enneagram?

Is this heat-center found in the same area one feels the central channel? The through which Kundalini is supposed to rise? In other words..does it bi-sect the central channel?

I would love to hear about one (or more) of the heart centered awareness meditations. So long as it has step-by-step instructions or a "Heart-Centered Awareness for Dummies' approach.

Yes...I've been convinced of that for at least 1-2 months. That's why I keep saying Dependent Origination (or as the Dalai Lama puts it - Dependent Arising) is the acid that melts all it touches. There's nothing to stop it from being true all the way through. That's what I find most disturbing about it. Needless to say I've been contemplating D.O a hell of a lot for the past 1-2 months. When I did get it I finally understood what the Dalai Lama meant when he said we are 'like' an illusion. People who object thinking he's saying reality is an illusion or non-real have just proven they haven't 'gotten' what he's saying yet. Edit: Can someone direct me to a step-by-step meditation instruction for examining No-Self?

I was asking why one can't have full enlightenment into both infinite compassion and infinite wisdom. Lucky says you're not understanding him. You say Lucky doesn't understand D.O. [at least up to this point that I've read in the thread] and that he's zhentong (the wiki article kind of boggled my mind on that topic). So what I'm asking is - if both Lucky's understanding is true and yours is true...why can not one have realization of both? In other words...why are you two arguing that the other is not 'getting' what you're saying? It's left me very confused as to which is considered "right view" as the 8 Fold Path would have one do.

Is there a way to both? Why must one assert one is the higher 'realization' over another? p.s. Thanks for the links Drew.

Part of me wonders if all the sniping back and forth of 'you need to shape up' and the snipes back of 'take a look in the mirror' are not unlike a husband and wife trying to change the other person. In one sense I see it as not just letting be what is - warts, flaws and all. People always want to change others but seldom ever want to or follow through with examining and defusing their own reactions. I know I'm often guilty of this behavior and it's surprisingly much harder to disarm this knee-jerk tendency than I thought.

I disagree... this statement misrepresents Eckhart's teaching. I found it to be spot-on myself as that is indeed the message the Power of Now gave me. Tolle makes it a point that as soon as one tries for anything you've lost the NOW. Which is true. He's really good at getting across that we all have inherent Buddha Nature and about desire getting in the way of just being. But to get to where Lao Tzu or Buddha or any of the Hindu sages were you have to first go through the long stage of trying to achieve a goal - something Tolle specifically says misses the point and therefore you should "give up the spiritual search". The end stage for Tolle is taught as the point to begin. It's telling babies to run before they've learned how to crawl. Thus people draw the conclusion they do not need to and should not do the work to achieve it. If they do they'll waste their time plus miss what they were working for in the first place. People like the guy Ingram was answering use it to argue to not bother. Then they'll also argue they're just as enlightened as a sage. Yogi answer to Tolle

I did not realize the Madonna / Whore dichotomy was so widespread across such disparate cultures.