JustARandomPanda

I've merged the topics. Cheers to everyone!

I will try Vortex. I'll have to go back and listen to my Dalai Lama audio book as that's where he discusses the Sutra. Buddha said women can become Buddhas. But that Sutra does indeed exist in the Buddhist canon. Born female = less merit, less chi energy. The body one is born with is to match what it must 'contain' energy and merit-wise.

If I understand correctly it is a Buddhist Sutra that is meant for both Laypeople and Monks. It states one eventually accumulates merit enough to warrant needing to be born in a stronger, more vibrant body able to hold that higher merit (and energy). Hence one eventually ascends enough to be born male. To be born female = less merit than any male. *shrug* However...this gets away from the topic of this thread which is commonalities between Buddhism and Taoism. Thanks to my mom I now own a copy of Eva Wong's big book on Taoism. So finally I get to learn about it too.

I just heard something from one of my Buddhist audio cds that has me troubled. If I understand this right in (Buddhist Yoga Tantra) it appears I was born a woman (and of course this holds for every other woman on this planet - including all of your mothers, sisters, girlfriends and daughters) because my past merit is less than that of a man. Being born a man means one has accumulated enough good merit in past lives that one finally automatically gets to be born such even if the rebirth still remains unconscious. I'm upset now over the fact I was born a woman. It is an outer sign of inferior merit to even the least of men - including the rapist, murderer and suicide terror bomber. I hope in the future I get to be reborn as a man. *heavy sigh*

I have been trying for approximately 3-4 months at meditation. It's taken me that long to FINALLY find a meditation technique that works for me. I tried and tossed out quite a few other methods that didn't get me very far. Turns out it was none other than Dr. Morris's counting breaths that did the trick. A good ol' twist on the 'count sheep' to get good sleep trick. The first time I did it it worked like a charm. The monkey mind chatter just died. AND STAYED DEAD for almost 10 minutes. My jaw nearly hit the floor in utter shock at the difference. The profound sense of awe, delight and RELIEF from monkey mind chatter clinched the deal for me right then and there. I had never realized just how much ENERGY is sucked up into thoughts until I got the chance to experience a calm, still mind. Now there's no going back. I'm going to keep meditating (and keep trying to extend the length of time each day I do it) for the rest of my life - both concentration and insight styles.

I am so glad MB is taking the time to post these chapters. I don't own a copy of Tao te Ching so this is very helpful.

No...if you state that I'm a bad person and don't like me because of it Tao99 that is ok. You would not be banned for it. You are just stating your truth. If I hurt from it then yes...there is a button inside me that is there...it's being pressed. Once that button is disolved you can say all kinds of nasty, evil things about me and I'll either A) yawn and move on or B ) laugh merrily and be on my way and still wish you well (which in fact I do - wish you well I mean).

VH doesn't bother me either although he does have at least one blindside that I wish he would look into fixing - especially since his path includes the way of the Bodhisattva. Yes...it is true that if he says something that irritates someone that does indeed mean there is an issue - a hot button in them that needs to be resolved that is causing them pain. However...there is also something at work within him as well that is making him play out this pugnacity. Past karma is no excuse for being an "igniter" of other people's hot buttons. This is "igniting suffering" in other people. A big No No in Buddhism. I do believe Buddhism has texts that stress this point. It indicates a blindness to an issue of one's own that needs work. Example...I can't imagine the Dalai Lama (were he ever so inclined to begin posting regularly at TaoBums) being so pugnacious about Buddhism and Buddhist interpretations of the cosmos. This gentle and kindly man would smile, be gracious about everyone's beliefs then invite one to learn more about Buddhism if one were so inclined. Having said that I do know VH has a kind heart. I just wish he would display it more openly and continuously at TB. I maintain hope that he will show everyone the kind heart I know he has. And as to whether anyone can find out if there are senses beyond our default five - well the nice thing is that we all can go meditate and see for ourselves if this is so. We don't HAVE to take anyone else's word for that unless we just want to. We can also go test it for ourselves if we're willing to put the time and effort into it.

Well all that is quite true. But I would also submit to not judge the Buddha solely by VH's posts. Do not hand over your power like that. Even the Buddha said to test his claims - that is go DO (read: actually DO the hard work of meditative practice so you attain ALL the levels and phase shifts of insight and concentration practice - practice with the dedication of a pro athlete). Test the Buddha's claims. That's what's beautiful about Buddhism (and Taoism!). It's rooted in a type of Empiricism. Keep going! Like the old Nike commercial said - "Just Do It". Edit: I know VH gets under some people's skin (and no, in my very Unenlightened opinion that does not excuse him from the hard work of working on his posting personality to become less abrasive to non-enlightened people! No Bodhisattva would excuse himself/herself from diligently doing the work of altering their entrenched karmic persona)... oh yeah...anyway...to get back to VH's defense... The reason he gets exasperated at times with the counter-arguments from people here is that he HAS practiced with the dedication of a Pro Athlete. He's Been there. It's like Magic Johnson arguing with ME about Basketball and what it's REALLY LIKE and takes to be a Pro Basketball Player in the middle of a game.

Is anyone able to explain what is meant by the Ten Celestial Branches? BTW - I just wanted to say what a beautiful person you are Marble. Whether you somehow have a grasp on "Truth" or not is immaterial to me as the generous and joyful person expressed - at least in your posts - is someone I aspire to be.

Can someone explain to me what "dependent origination" is? That everything is connected as one? And is Vajrahridaya saying that Buddhism believes in dependent origination ("universal unity?"), yet is atheist (does not believe in a Divine Will/God)?). Hi Vortex... Your question is a good one. To understand why I posted what I did you would need to read my other thread I posted first - the one called Ego Inflation - aka Secret Narcissism. Please go read it if you have the chance as it is actually helps understanding of one of your questions. In that post I mentioned my distress at how vast and deep the problem of Ego Inflation / Quiet Narcissism is. It is in fact the mechanism behind why all the world religions believe in a Divinity or Divine Will(s). Ego Inflation is a Natural act and one that can not be avoided. It is with you every step of the way at every stage on the way to Enlightenment (aka Awakening, aka Ego-less-ness). It is such a mechanical act of "mother nature" that math can even be used to explain how the process works. On the way through various stages of meditation one 'works through' all the levels on a personal scale. Once one has 'seen through' all the personal levels of Ego's workings a phase shift occurs. Now Awareness becomes aware of vast, cosmic infinity. But the mechanics of Ego are still at work! It will grasp. Only this time now it will grasp to claim at what is available - Cosmic Infinity. Ego Inflates itself up again to 'merge' and 'claim' this vast infinity as Realizing or encountering 'God' and how 'God and I are one and the same' and "everything ultimately is a manifestation of the Divine." and "God is in everything". There are several levels or phases of this phase as well. Once all the work of this phase has been done Awareness turns around full circle. It sees that it did the same thing all over again that it had done on the personal scale - except this time on the cosmic scale. Once Awareness becomes aware of this process "Divine Will" and "God" goes down the drain. I now believe one of the reasons the Church Forefathers branded the "God and I are One" and the "I am God" truth/gnostic claims as heresy is precisely because they somehow sensed this was the Ego Inflation process gone out of control. The Church fathers were right to puncture the Christian mystic's claims...just not for the reasons they think. Pretty strange that Atheists are in agreement on one thing with Buddhists more than they know, eh? Well...as I understand it...Question Number One is answered simply by this... Taoists see Ever-Flux (constant change, Yin/Yang, etc) as arising from Tao. Buddhists say this is not the case (and supposedly can be experientally proven to be a false view). Buddhists say Ever-Flux *IS* all that there is. Occam's Razor is at work here. There is no need to posit (and supposedly experience will prove it to the meditator) a "mystical, unknowable Tao". Once ALL phases of Yin/Yang have transitioned - Clear Consciousness will see that the "mystical, unknowable Tao" phase was but one rung on the path to Awakening. Now...unlike VH I can't say "I Know" this to be the case because quite frankly I haven't attained even the lowest rungs on the ladder of meditation practice. I do intend to find out though. I did have that 'flash' of insight where the puzzle for a nano-second fell into place but that in no way somehow 'proves' I'm right. Not even to myself. It's good to keep asking questions. I'm going to attempt to refrain from answering any more questions about Buddhism as I'd really like to see this thread return to its original purpose...discussing Tao.

Songs...I recall having read a science article a few years ago about this subject. It appears there are certain genetic and biochemical constraints on each person that will put a limit as to how long he/she will be able to learn to hold their breath. Some people are just genetically and biochemically better 'geared' to holding their breath for extraordinarily long amounts of time.

Hi Ninpo...interesting post though I don't think this is what the Buddha was talking about - i.e. a void in the sense you're stating. It took me a long time to wrap my head around it but Emptiness / No-mind to a Buddhist meditator means only one thing - Dependent Arising. The type of void you are referring to Buddhists refute over and over. The only reason I was ever finally able to 'get' that idea to sink in is because of the multiple books by the Dalai Lama that I've read wherein he discusses this very subject and the mistaken understandings about it. It is sooooo much easier understanding all this Dependent Arising and no Essence (whether of the Self or of the Universe) stuff when the Dalai Lama talks about it than when VH does. It's also a heck of a lot more interesting too (than when VH discusses it, I mean). Gah...I so hope I don't sound combative or disrespectful. I know I need to tippy-toe on these subjects because everyone's "immune system response" has been stirred up so constantly over the subject. Also...since I have not experienced any sort of meditative state other than briefly managing to quell my surface thoughts I would never state Buddhism is superior to 'this or that' other belief system. It's just that this is where my understanding of some Buddhist subjects are at this time. The nice thing - from what I understand - is that both Buddhism and Taoism are based on a type of Empiricism. That is...both state that if you do 'ABC practices' you will get 'XYZ results'. So then it's just a matter of kicking back and doing the practices. We all get to find out for ourselves how compatible or not Taoism and Buddhism are. The Chinese didn't (and don't) seem to have a problem with both (and Confucius too - can't forget about him, you know). But this thread is about Taoism. I know more about Buddhism than about Taoism so I hope it returns now to just discussing various aspects about the Tao. Like this Ten Celestial Branches stuff. I don't recall ever seeing anything like that anywhere else.

Now at last I understand. The squabble is over one little word - STARTER. A formless, unchanging background from which everything emanates. Yes...I can see now why a Buddhist would see this as equivalent to God. God, Will, Formless Background that all things emanate around or out of. It's not only an Ever-Fluxing in and of itself. Ever-Fluxing arises out of Tao for Taoists. Buddhists say Ever-Fluxing (Dependent Arising) is all there is (Occam's Razor - no need to impute anything more). Perhaps a closer equivalent would be if Taoism had said Yin/Yang WAS Tao? Instead of trying to separate it out from the 'unknowable Tao'? Hmm.... I agree. These interpretations are incompatible. But VH...you are aware of how you come across. I know you do. You just seemingly admitted this in your latest post. I know you to be far kinder than perhaps some TaoBummers perceive you to be. If you are trying to get people to 'go find out' for themselves surely you also see how you are perceived as being combative and disrespectful to Taoism and Taoists. I actually believe you when you say you've dissolved your "hot buttons". So you just toss stuff out there because it's about the message - let the chips fall where they may. But don't you remember what it was like when you still had them? The hot buttons I mean? Being perceived as disrespectful and combative drives people away from learning about what Buddhism has to say. It means the ONLY people who will bother to learn about Buddhism will be the tiny handful who have either A) decided to look past their reaction (Marblehead-or-Mal style) or B ) the exceedingly tiny handful of people who don't have that "hot button" anymore. It's exactly the same reaction that drove a lot of people into Agnosticism or Atheism. Intellectually we may know we shouldn't necessarily toss the baby out with the bathwater. But if people were truly logical neither Buddhism nor Taoism would be needed. We'd all be wu wei. Is there truly no other way you can get your messages across?

I will! Thank you! I am going to do my best to find out if you are right - meditation, texts and all (I'm going to study Taoism too). Yeah..that includes trying to see if I had a past life as a stork too!

BTW - I'm convinced Dependent Arising is in fact the correct view of the Universe so you're preaching to the choir here. I'm curious to see how Buddhism explains the mechanics of it. While you're at it - I'd like to see the mechanics of Clarity Crystal Consciousness explained too. (and no...in case anyone thinks I am - I'm not being sarcastic...I really do want to know! )

It's a stage - a phase one goes through. It is the stage of Ego Graspingly Inflated to Infinite Cosmic Regress and thus imputing itself as God. It is a phase that must be seen through. It is an incorrect view. It's STILL EGO. Just EGO on an Infinitely Regressing Cosmic Scale. Go back and re-read. I apologize if my explanation is muddy. I am actually AGREEING with the Buddha about that subject! It's an incorrect view. I also agree with this. It's just that unlike you I also believe the Tao is 'essence-less'. This is Lao Tzu's point. It's why he kept saying it's ineffable. Simply because one gains Realization of Dependent Arising doesn't mean one can EXPLAIN THE MECHANICS OF IT. I admit I could be wrong about this. If there are Buddhist texts that explain the mechanics of Dependent Arising I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

I agree. They are not the same at all. I stated there is no Divine Will. Divine Will is just the Ego Graspingly Inflated to Infinite Cosmic Regress. This is something that tiny 'flash' I had in the parking lot firmly refuted (refuted Divine Will that is). You drew some wrong conclusions from my post - that being one of them - but that just means I didn't explain it clearly. I'm also firmly aware that I have no deep meditation insight whatsoever into any of this. Flashes don't mean squat. That's why teachers, texts and 'learn by doing' meditation are important. In which case I'll eventually discover whatever the truth may be. It's all good in the woods. I'm in no hurry to be right. It's ALL just Ego posting on the Internet. edit: FYI - Just to state for the record - I don't believe in Divine Will. Furthermore: I don't believe Taoists see Tao as equivalent to any of the Divine Will Wrong View stages you claim they have. You keep saying they do. They keep saying they don't. I just know that both statements can not be right.

Addendum to the above: I think I see now why the Buddha stated the First Noble Truth (and it's translated) the way he did. Have you ever noticed how people state once they hit a certain sustained level of meditative Realization they ALL state that Bliss is the Natural / True state of 'being'? The Bliss is Always There they say. It always ever was. We just aren't aware of it. I have read this statement or something comparable to it over and over and over by people from all walks of life. East, West, North, South - Religious, Atheist, Agnostic. There's a reason why they say "The Bliss is always there" - It's True Nature. But notice what they have to do and achieve in order to gain that Realization in the first place! So what is preventing EVERYONE from defaulting to this "Bliss Awareness" automatically - ZERO effort or Meditation skill required? Something is obscuring us from being aware of it. And the Obscuring IS "the Suffering" precisely BECAUSE it prevents us from being born with this default Bliss Awareness as our Standard Operating Procedure. What happens when babies are born? They CRY. Why would any sentient being whose SOP is nascent Infinite Bliss Awareness ever Cry - even when struck? Why do we have a medical industry, psychiatry and optimism psychology dedicated to helping people cope? Again this implies something is obscuring access to this manifesting innate Bliss Awareness. So in some ways Marblehead's critique of Buddhism in the other thread was wrong. I don't quite agree. The Buddha WAS right in saying Life is Suffering - it obscures from us - even babies and amoebas - that nascent, infinite bliss. But MB WAS right when he talked about how one can choose to view less-than-positive events positively by deciding how to interpret the event. But not - I believe - in the way he thinks he is. LOL (don't you just love this MB?) The story we tell ourselves - when we see it is - to some degree - tapping into that deep truth of Innate, nascent Bliss Awareness. However..Positive Thinking.. doesn't go deep enough (which is what I believe is MB's objection to the Buddha's First Noble Truth assertion - he's just not Positive (not true, the Buddha and Buddhism is precisely Optimistic to the core). Again...go back to what I said...the Suffering the Buddha was talking about is the Obscuring manifesting (what a yin/yang thing to do ). That's why normal, everyday happiness and happy situations are transient. To the being that 'lives in the Power of Now Bliss Awareness' (to use some Tolle terminology) transience doesn't even exist - that's why it comes close to the Tao. It's ALL the Power of Now. All Bliss, All the Time. 24/7 - regardless of the Yin/Yang fluxing going on. While it itself (the Bliss Awareness) is not the Tao it is probably the closest humans will ever come to awareness of it. And once they've attained that Awareness - had a 'brush' with it - they will manifest it naturally (how Wu Wei of them!). Like water flowing down a mountain. This is why I believe all Meditation traditions (Taoist included) all say to go deep with meditation. It's to get beyond the Obscuring to find the deep truth. And now...I'm sure MB will tear me a new one! And I'm going to enjoy every minute of it. I'm pretty sure VH will tear me a new one too. And I'll enjoy that too! Learning is fun! ***** As I understand it Taoism is Neither-Neither. Neither Monism nor Not-Monism. Neither Dualism nor Not-Dualism. We are all to some degree, trapped by words. I am probably one of the few people here who actually do believe you completely when you say there are senses human beings tap into once they get 'beyond' or 'past' or 'drop' the 5 default ones. The cool thing is - Life's Processes will go on regardless of "Posts" Posting on the Internet. It's all Dependent Arising out of the Mysterious Pass anyway.

Can someone clarify this paragraph for me. Part of me keeps thinking *maybe* I understand what he's saying but then I stop and realize...well..no I don't understand at all. This is why I say Buddhism is not Transcendent of Taoism. You do ABC in Taoism...you will get XYZ results...

Eternal thanks, sorry for all my karmic shit. I can't comprehend what it must require on your end. Thank you so much, glad you are better, Agreed. I am glad you are better and thank you (and Susan!) for shouldering my bad karmic load.

I just signed up for your Thursday morning class. Cheers!

Santi, If I wanted to re-take KAP 1 with you how much would it be and where do I sign up?

I have not read this thread at all but I wanted to post something strange experienced today. It has to do with Ego Inflation and how it relates to the Tao and Realization of the Tao. First off...let me state..I do not agree with VH that Buddhism is somehow transcendent of Taoism. Let me try to explain. I believe they are two paths that will lead to the exact same "phase state" or "realization" - for lack of a better term. One takes the path of Ambiguity and life's mysteries. The other takes the path of Clear Stages and Steps. Both are manifest in our lives at all times at the exact same time. When vsaluki told VH (in the What Makes Buddhism Different thread) he was hiding behind words in one sense he was right. vsaluki was asking VH to please explain the mechanics of how this Dependent Origination happens. VH perhaps thought Vsaluki was being obtuse or just not evolved enough in his understanding. I think both were right in their various arguments and explanations. VH is right about (and so are Atheists!) to say there is no God. But vsaluki was also right in saying VH had not answered the questions he and other Taoists have in how the mechanics of this Dependent Origination causes creation of life and everything in the universe to Be. Vsaluki was pointing out what Taoists already know...that even Buddhism's Dependent Origination is not able to explain the mechanics of this. I think the Dalai Lama intuitively realizes this - hence his utter fascination with Science and the Scientific Method. It is why he doesn't see a conflict between Science and Buddhism and is continuously eager to help scientists and maintain a dialogue with them. Both Buddhists and Taoists (and other *ists*) will arrive at the exact same phase shift of Awakened Awareness - Crystal Consciousness though they will get there via different paths. The process is Mechanical via a process Taoists (maybe Buddhists too?) became aware of over a thousand years ago - Yin/Yang. It is mechanical, not mystical. Follow the practices and advice given (take your pick - Lao Tzu's Tao te Ching or the Buddha's 8-fold Path) and Yin/Yang process is at work (in fact it's always at work - you're just busy becoming aware of it). So whether via the path of Ambiguity (Findley's Mysterious Pass he's so fond of) or Buddhism's more precise steps you will end up seeing Cosmic Ego - aka God. This gets back to my other post about Ego Inflation. This is a mechanical process on our path of awakening whether via Taoism or Buddhism (or dare I say Christianity, Islam or any other ism if you keep at the process long enough). It is such a mechanical process that Mathematicians have been able to express it symbolically via math! It's mechanical..natural. If this were not so there would be nothing for a Buddha or Taoist Immortal to gain clarity awareness of. The Process: Once the Seeker / Practitioner has exhausted (read: enough Yin/Yang transitions have played out) all the stages of "seeing past the Self" the Ego will inflate AGAIN to match the new phase shift. Since the Seeker/Practitioner has now "seen through Itself" the process (Yin/Yang at work, remember?) keeps going. Only this time it will do so to match the new scale - Cosmic Infinity. Nature abhors a vacuum. So Ego will inflate to fill the vacuum. It is Natural. It is NATURE to fill the vacuum. This is when the Taoist or Buddhist or any other *ist* (including the Atheist!) will experience the Divine as All. We are All One. I and God are one, etc. The process continues. Eventually the Cosmic Ego will transition again (i.e. the Cosmic Ego Awareness - aka I and God are One - will phase shift again). When this happens the otherness, transcendent yet immanent majesty of "God" dissolves. It all goes down the drain. It is Awareness coming full circle. Seeing itself...that it has inflated itself to fill the vacuum. The Buddha was right. The first Noble Truth is true. However...I think the way it's been interpreted has been misleading in the West. He wasn't talking about "suffering" only as we, popularly think of it (although he obviously included that too). I think a more accurate way of stating the First Noble Truth would be to say that Life is Impermanent Happiness. Notice how this does not contradict the truths Lao Tzu talks about in the Tao Te Ching. I had this 'insight' if you will - today - of all places - while pondering at a grocery parking lot! A most ordinary and quite mundane of places to get a glimpse into the workings of sentience. And here's the weirder part. I now see how "I" am not even the "author" or..hmm..not even a "conduit" of this explanation. It's just...Yin/Yang..Tao...expressing. So "I" - to be completely and technically correct - can not even claim "I" had this insight. How freaky is that? This all happened in a flash and just as quickly it was gone. The Buddha and Lao Tzu were both right. I object with VH that Buddhism is somehow "transcendent" of Taoism. They are BOTH at the SAME TIME elucidating the same truth. The process will happen with or without us understanding it (meaning the 'analytical, thinking, higher portion of the brain). And in that sense - Taoism is "transcendent" of Buddhism in getting this point across to people. So Taoists...hold your head high. The process / the journey you are on will manifest in you just as much as in Buddhists (or any other ists). It can't be otherwise... It just is.

Please do!! I would find the information very helpful!