Mr. T

howdy all, i'm not sure why i haven't noticed this thread yet, but it is a good one. that style just bugs me, though...it is so hard to follow!! of course, here is the lin translation, offered for it's subtle differences from the others. There is something formlessly created Born before Heaven and Earth So silent! So ethereal! Independent and changeless Circulating and ceaseless It can be regarded as the mother of the world I do not know its name Identifying it, I call it "Tao" Forced to describe it, I call it great Great means passing Passing means receding Receding means returning Therefore the Tao is great Heaven is great Earth is great The sovereign is also great There are four greats in the universe And the sovereign occupies one of them Humans follow the laws of Earth Earth follows the laws of Heaven Heaven follows the laws of Tao Tao follows the laws of nature if you happen to have this translation with the commentary, or you have tuned in to his discussions, he often reiterates how the character that he translates as "sovereign" refers to the self. we are kings of ourselves...our minds, actions, surroundings, etc. that idea makes a lot of sense to me, and is one of the reasons that i really like this translation. i remember when i first heard that idea and read some of the chapters containing that character, the lines seemed much different. "tao follows the laws of nature" is something i get hung up on, personally...any input?

hello. two questions i guess i have: 1. how confident are you guys with these translations? i suppose the accuracy expectations are the same as most ancient texts? 2. why is this text not as prominent in the "taoist cannon", if there is such a thing? these first few chapters are really cool to read. and not that i have anything to base this on, but the chapter seems to be speaking to "the 10,000 things", so could the phrase, "all the forms of the mind" just be another way to represent this saying? i dunno, just my first impression...

hey all, wb, my relationship with the i ching is very new and fresh, but one thing you typed earlier that stood out to me was when you said the changing lines were opposites. that might be so, be we only have to look to the taiji symbol to see that opposites contain some vestige of the other. that is why we study taoism, to find the yin within the yang and figure out how it all works, right? zero's posts are also very good advice...good luck!

i'll second or third the opinions to keep posting. thanks for this resource...i'm with the others in that i'll probably just be reading! thanks!

only half-joking here...maybe you are an abductee. they have support and outreach groups for that sort of thing... have you been to a hypno-therapist?

never die...

agreed...nice simple chapter. thanks for the posts and commentaries, folks. it's nice to come here and read after a long day of stress! thanks again...

hey dudes and dudettes, you guys both make salient points. anima, i have to go with jb in that if it's right for you it will happen. trust me, i am not one of the "it will just happen if you wish it to" kinda people, but if you are supposed to learn something you will learn it naturally. the tao manifests as it does...that is something that i have always found to be wonderous about the tao. if i am on the right path then things happen naturally. as far as a practice, the others are right about that, too...ask. practice. or, don't ask, don't practice... haha, that's my two cents today. have a good weekend!

ha!!!! oh man, all this really does cloud the issue, doesn't it?! edit, this post was referring to all the vids and stuff...zhang, you beat me to the punch, nice post...

howdy! yeah, i am still trying to figure this one out, as well. just like all the other chapters!! i remember when i first read this chapter i was riding the bus at the time, and it happened to be the dead of winter. it snowed all day...hard. the bus was very, very late, and the afternoon route didn't even run. i also remember thinking that i needed to stop riding the bus! i will post my preferred translation here for this chapter, because it is somewhat different... Lin translation Sparse speech is natural Thus strong wind does not last all morning Sudden rain does not last all day What makes this so? Heaven and Earth Even Heaven and Earth cannot make it last How can humans? Thus those who follow the Tao are with the Tao Those who follow virtue are with virtue Those who follow loss are with loss Those who are with the Tao, the Tao is also pleased to have them Those who are with virtue, virtue is also pleased to have them Those who are with loss, loss is also please to have them Those who do not trust sufficiently, others have no trust in them

hey all... devoid, please do not take this as a personal assault, but i thought that wuji was the stillness before taiji. from wuji comes taiji (one), comes yin and yang (two), comes manifestation (three), comes the myriad things. so from stillness evolves motion, and the motion brings about the separations of yin and yang...is this wrong? does it even contradict what you have said? i may have misunderstood what you said, which i often do as a result of many things!! see ya...

yeah, that is pretty funny. thanks again jia for the recommendations. i'll hafta keep my eye out. the sawyer translation is the one i have, and i do appreciate the historical perspective. lots of good character analysis and so forth. i'll definitely have to check out some other translations, as i have benefited from reading many versions of the ttc, so i think the same would apply! as far as taoism in some name and form being around before the ttc, we only have to look at lao tzu's reference to the ancient masters...and to use the word ancient, they must have been old...

hey all, agreed that suntzu is interesting. it seems difficult to find a good translation, however...any suggestions other than the ones above? more on topic, it seems telling that the description of the "heaven" side of battle is given first, followed by the earthly realms. the emphasis on tao is pretty cool, and the style is in the vein of ancient chinese works...thanks jia for your translation and comments. i would definitely like to read more!!

oh yeah, i know i am a relative new-comer to this site, but what is the "l-word" that you two disagree on? love, loss, luck? is it really 4-letters long??!! oh well, curiosity killed the cat, i suppose... later

hey all, it's nice to see so many people participating, wow! quite a few good points have been made...particularly the issue of internalizing these teachings, and looking inside for refinement and spiritual advancement. the wording used in that translation do seem to place emphasis on that, thanks for sharing. also, the issue of faith is brought up, and when the concept was introduced in my "formal" tao training it was a particularly mind-bending experience. faith? i am who i am because i was always a person who had abandoned the concept of faith, at least in terms of a "religion". this chapter really got me thinking.... also, i agree that picking out a line or two can be a dangerous practice...although i am guilty of doing it as much as the next guy!! see ya...

i see your point marble, but i tend to see stump's pov more easily. fear is natural. yes, without proper respect for something we may find ourselves in a dangerous situation. however lau tzu, i feel, was speaking directly to the things that we should use caution when dealing with. and you must admit that most people do not respect things...they either get extremely fearful, or they go the other way and get overly confident, and thus wind up in trouble as well. so fear is a very necessary and real emotion...perhaps lau tzu could have said, "what the people fear, i will treat with respect"?? heheh, have a good one

oooohhh, this is really starting to get interesting!! a couple points to add from my limited experience. first, i remember derek's discussion of this chapter and he did pay special attention to the lines pointed out. "what the people fear, i cannot be unafraid". and i remember him giving the exact interpretation that has been discussed here...that the sage values the opinions and perspectives of people and if they have a fear of something it may well be for a very good reason and to at least approach said thing with caution. his comments in the book end with the acknowledgment of value judgments. the second point was that i was of the impression that the taiwanese dialect is pretty close to ancient chinese. as a result, some of the meaning an characters used in the original texts can be found in taiwan today. is this information correct? if it is, some of the characters and meanings of the original chinese is still used in some modified form today. again, any more info on this would be very appreciated. thanks all! p.s.- and as far as the use of the word fear, i agree that word can be somewhat loaded...but you have to admit that the strength of the word can be a good motivator and attention getter...

hey elem, i kind of agree with anima, in that it seems like you have quite a few "daily practices", and that maybe adding more wouldn't necessarily be a good thing. can i ask how long you have been practicing these things? not that it matters, i guess, just curious... however, to answer you question the best i can, i know that iron body practices are sometimes associated with various forms of conservation of energies, perhaps you have done this in your school already. if not, finding a proper teacher of those things might prove tricky. that's about all i might have to offer....good luck!

hey guys and gals, derek lin's translation just for kicks... End sagacity; abandon knowledge The people benefit a hundred times End benevolence; abandon righteousness The people return to piety and charity End cunning; discard profit Bandits and thieves no longer exist These three things are superficial and insufficient Thus this teaching has its place: Show plainness; hold simplicity Reduce selfishness; decrease desires

hey all! heheh, this is funny and serious all at the same time, wow! but honestly, it's a really interesting trend how religions try to debase other religious leaders through obviously contrived stories. a couple things that stuck out to me, "Actually you are right. I placed Buddhism above Taoism and this shouldn't be done on a Taoist forum.".... or anywhere else...it simply is not reality. they are equally good, and equally meaningless. "If we could debate which is better in a civilised manner it would be very good".... why? i refer back to my point (and the point that others have made as well) that neither is better than the other. i always wonder why we try to reconcile, join, order in terms of origin or importance, and generally compare buddhism and taoism. was anyone here alive and living in china at the time? then we will never know what happened, and i contend that it doesn't matter a hill'o'beans.

hey all! i felt compelled to post here because when science starts to take flak i just get all hot and bothered! to first address the op, thank you for the vids and info. there is a lot of good info out there about folks who are starting to delve into this unknown territory. now to the comment made by exorcist "With such a narrow, fatal scientific framework embedded in our mind , hardly can we really achieve anything high..." while this may be true, i feel it is important to keep in mind that "science" is the opposite of narrow and fatalistic...it is the humans who try to find things out under the guise of science that become narrow and fatalistic. just because an experiment did not show a,b, or c, does not mean that a,b, or c does or cannot exist, it just means the people doing the science did not do something properly....or they did everything properly and the expected outcome is hogwash in the first place. so i don't want to take this thread in a different direction, i just wanted to be a voice in favor of science and say that exorcist's view can potentially be a dangerous one because it is not exactly correct. it is not "science" that cannot explain nature properly, it is the scientists and their limited understanding that puts limitations on this sort of thing...

hey all, happy friday to you! warning: about to hijack thread drumr, that is only the second time i have heard of someone doing that (reversing the lines and reading backwards, that is), and it's kind of weird to me. it seems like hearing a recording in reverse and then pulling out words you think you might hear. where did you hear of this, and do you feel it has been a beneficial practice for you? i am not saying that you should not do it or that i think it's wrong, i just don't understand it and would like to get your opinion...and anyone else's, of course! i guess i can see how the lines do read differently, but i am confused reading most chapters forward, the last thing i need to do is try it in reverse!! should we continue this in another thread? i think i will because i am genuinely interested in different takes on this....

"Be afraid...be very, very afra... Oh No! Here come the ministers now!" hopefully they are loyal ministers....

yes, that interpretation makes sense...i really wish that i somehow intuitively understood chinese culture, language, etc...it would make this whole tao thing much more wholesome and understandable. (well, maybe it would make some of the colloquialisms in the ttc easier to understand.) also, filial piety is perhaps the biggest improvement i can see that i need. that's also why i get sad when i read this chapter...it reminds me of how much i take my family for granted and it brings back all the bad things i have done to them throughout life. it's a good thing they love me unconditionally!