Mr. T

hey folks, this is sort of a sad chapter to me...if reminds me of the bad things in life. my question is why is the reference made to six relations? i remember hearing that it might have had something to do with family connections in the chinese language, and that is used as a metaphor for all your relationships in life...anyone have any more info on the six relations? it's odd that usually the numbers given are 5's or 8's or 10,000 that is my poor attempt at a tao joke...

hey bee, while i really can't say much about your specific situation, the one thing that stuck out to me when reading your post was when you said "merging the two"...i assume meaning your study of the tao and your work life... my only advice would be to think of it more as applying tao principles to your work situation...try first to observe the tao in action in your workplace. get to know literally everything by practicing openness and quiet mindfulness (eavesdropping! )...over time, the correct action for every situation will become obvious and things will begin to happen naturally... at least, that's what "they" say should happen. and of course, this is easier said than done, and i wish that i could have these habits already ingrained in myself...things would be so much easier!! good luck with work.

happiness!

hey mew, since i was one of those critics before, i felt compelled to at least get back to you and give you my opinion. i do not have vast amounts of experience, as you know. but i feel that from what little i do know, i think the answer to you question could be yes, or no. as everyone has said, the forms are designed to do specific things, so in that sense, yes, it would matter. but if are asking if it matters if you do a certain form or not, i would say no. there are a million "forms"...it doesn't really matter what form you do, as long as you are doing it with the correct mind intent, and you are disciplined in your practice. i could have missed the point, and if so, then i apologize.... you should start one of those personal practice rooms...does anyone know how to do that? can anyone just start one?? just a thought... take it easy

hey all, my wife and i have talked about our gross unappreciation at how the christian mind works. i say christian because we are american obviously, so that is our context...everywhere there is christ!! ha! i sound like a preacher...but insert any religion into that, and it becomes somewhat confusing. anyway, i think it is worth questioning how truly "faithful", "devoted", or "religious" most religious people actually are. same goes for taoists...we all have varying degrees of devotion, yet we all claim the same affiliation. who really knows what goes on in palin's head, obama's head, but i know in palin's position it is much safer to claim staunch belief and faith...it is safe for president obama to be a sunday christian... the movie "jesus camp" was unsettling, and really had us going for awhile. the whole time, we just are baffled...

yes, perhaps not as good as the original (of course), but still many tao overtones and themes. what a good movie! my wife fell asleep though...

howdy! you know, the last few posts brought up something that i do find interesting about our interpretations of historical taoism, and that is the political side of it. i always got the impression that a segment of tao practitioners were involved politically to some extent. we obviously do not have that tradition here in the west (at least not in the us that i am aware of), so do you think our understanding of this chapter is especially minimized by the a-political nature of taoism in the west? does anyone have the translation for business leaders? i would be interested to read this chapter in that book! also, does anyone know of any taoist government official here in the west, either the states or elsewhere?

hey mtwo... i apologize for my previous post, i often misread things and have to insert the proverbial foot. so i am glad at least that you aren't poking people with things! i still stand by my opinion that these arts are things you should be almost reluctant to teach, and if anything should be approached hesitantly...as if crossing a frozen river. are you ready to fall in?? i sure ain't...i like to be dry! so i apologize again, and i promise to do a better job of reading in the future, later

hey all, just for a little comparison action, d. lin's translation.... The highest rulers, people do not know they have them The next level, people love them and praise them The next level, people fear them The next level, people despise them If the rulers' trust is insufficient Have no trust in them Proceeding calmly, valuing their words Task accomplished, matter settled The people all say, "We did it naturally" i really like this chapter. it seems interesting that trust is brought up where it is...talking about the hierarchy of ruling abilities capped off with some words on trust...i assume then that trust is of the utmost importance between leader/led, ruler/ruled, teacher/student, etc? i also love the multifaceted aspect of the ttc. this chapter has meaningful things to say to both sides of this equation (leader/followers, etc). the first line is really powerful to me in that it says different thing if you are reading it from the perspective of the follower or the perspective of the leader. it's almost frightening to think that i don't know who is in control! i guess i have to trust them to have my best interest at heart.... really good chapter....

hold the phone...did you say you developed your own acupuncture system that you are applying to actual people? am i the only one who finds this unsettling? you have trained in some internal styles, but have you trained under a practitioner of tcm or acupuncture? now that stuff can get really, super dangerous. please, tell me you have training in acupuncture, or else please stop poking people... this is the reason that these types of arts are not taken seriously in the west...

howdy! oh no...the ww word. why'd you have to bring that up, marble??!! just kidding. that concept seems to be lurking in all the dark corners, eh? to comment on what you said easy, appreciating the natural side of life is one aspects of taoism that i love very much. when you say "act in concert", it recalls to mind the time-lapse videos of the forest floor, or a flower. all the small plants stretch and wriggle back and forth in-unison...in concert. then winter hits, they shrink back again only to spring back the next year. perfect! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-mfYgsIAxI i love at about 1:05 when the seeds split open...hahaha, cover your kids eyes, it's a little gross...

hey all, and hello cat. i am somewhat of a novice myself, having only had a formal taiji teacher for a little over four years. here is my take on what you are asking, but feel free to ignore it! as others have mentioned, the advice to practice only one thing at a time is so that the student can actually learn what they are studying. the vast majority of us are not intelligent enough to learn more that one of these complicated arts at a time...they are very deep, as you are aware. however, our sifu does caution that some arts can be dangerous while practiced at the same time. i'll have to inquire more about that at our next class! there is nothing wrong with wing chung...the art and its "creator" are/were very much aligned with taoist principles. having said that, taiji quan is also an extremely effective form of self-defense- if one has been trained and has practiced properly...only you can decide which is right for you. once you decide, practice, practice, practice. as far as internal alchemy...a proper taiji quan instructor will help you learn more about these practices. you will probably find it quite difficult to find a teacher specifically teaching internal alchemy...unless of course you live in southern california or nyc!! and even then, these things are typically not taught to just anybody...you must prove that you are a worthy, dedicated student to get more instruction than just the basics...usually through years of rigorous study and training. i feel that you have taken the right first step, which is to inform yourself and begin to ask questions. good luck! they say that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear....

agreed, we are still animals! yeah, that whole ego thing can get cumbersome. i think you are right that some semblance of an ego is necessary in life, and i agree that understanding it and it's role in ones life is extremely important...it seems reducing it can also be beneficial! the other thing that i know mr. lin says often when talking about his translation is that when the word "sovereign" is used, it can be also thought of as the individual..."me". that appears many times throughout the ttc, and also here in 16. that tends to make that section/line appear differently when one places themselves in the context of the text... i thought i'd add that since i have been thinking about it now that i have been participating in this conversation. i still don't fully understand this chapter...it is difficult for me to follow...

sorry...i feel compelled to chime in here... please take no offense at my opinion, it is only that...my opinion. i do not know you, or your history with qi gong, so feel free to tell me to go to heck. based on what you have led us to believe is your history with qi gong, i would say a resounding, no...you should not go out and teach people. qi gong and internal martial arts can be extremely dangerous if done improperly...especially if it is a "new" system. have you learned any arts through a reputable, certified teacher? and if so, have they given you the authority to pass on the knowledge they have imparted to you? if the answer to either of those questions is "no", then continue to refine yourself before you attempt to refine others... now, having said that, i have taught some close friends the very basic, beginning qi gong because they were curious about what it is that i do on a daily basis. that is much different than it sounds like you are suggesting, which is actively seeking students to teach your system...i would strongly caution you...

hey marble... i agree somewhat. the last line escpecially, "the self is no more, without danger", does seem a little forced when taken in context of the rest of the chapter...it just doesn't seem to fit. whatever, my name isn't lao tzu, so who am i to say what does and doesn't fit in his book!! i do remember hearing derek's lecture about his translation of this chapter, and from what i can remember this chapter is all about lessening the ego (self). by reducing the ego, one lessens their interference in interactions, and thus the complexity of their life. these are his words and ideas, not mine...just to give due credit. now this was some time ago, so i could be totally ate up. when i read this chapter focusing on reducing unnecessary intrusions into life, it's like i can see how someone could merge with the tao and be forever..."the tao is forever, the self is no more, without danger." so it's like the self has been replaced by the tao, and one is free from suffering...like this chapter is a roadmap of sorts...

hey all, happy friday!! i figured since i have been banging on about derek lin, i'll continue and post his translation of 16.... Attain the ultimate emptiness Hold on to the truest tranquility The myriad things are all active I therefore watch their return Everything flourishes; each returns to its root Returning to the root is called tranquility Tranquility is called returning to one's nature Returning to one's nature is called constancy Knowing constancy is called clarity Not knowing constancy, one recklessly causes trouble Knowing constancy is acceptance Acceptance is impartiality Impartiality is sovereign Sovereign is Heaven Heaven is Tao Tao is eternal The self is no more, without danger a lot of similarities between many of the translations. i have heard other people say the same thing as you, easy...that 16 is sort of a litmus test for translations. not sure what to look for, other than the things possibly that have been pointed out. i have to admit that i find the literary device commonly used in the ttc, and used twice in this chapter, is difficult for me to follow usually. i'm not sure why, i think it is just the word progression or something. the last two section of this chapter are the examples i am referring to... this is that, is this is that is this is that....sort of thing. am i alone here?

hey all, interesting topic, and i wanted to ask a general question that i hope is not straying too far from the mark here...anyway, i get the feeling that achieving "enlightenment", or as you say becoming a sage, takes a lot of hard work. so does it follow that you do not ascribe to the idea of "instantaneous enlightenment"? i'm asking because i do not believe that enlightenment can be achieved immediately, but i personally do not feel that it requires a lot of "work". this could all be rubbish if i am mashing together two unmashable terms, namely enlightenment and sagehood. i suppose to have immortality as a sage would require a lifetime of discipline, instruction, practice, and refinement. is this what you are referring to with the above?

howdy all... to get back to apech and marblehd, i personally don't have too much to add to that. thanks marble for fillin' in the gaps! i am guilty of the same thing apech, reading only a single line and applying it to situations or attributing some absolute truth to it. that has proven to be somewhat dangerous... those two lines look even different when considered along with the other two lines in the section...two questions that point out more abilities of the sage. and it is interesting that the are opposites in way...the mind full of commotion becoming clear and calm and the calm, tranquil mind being capable of creative action... i also like the "uncarved wood" language and agree you should probably keep it!!

a few comments i figured i'd add since i have a different translation... The Tao masters of antiquity Subtle wonders through mystery Depths that cannot be discerned Because one cannot discern them Therefore one is forced to describe the appearance Hesitant, like crossing a wintry river Cautious, like fearing four neighbors Solemn, like a guest Loose, like ice about to melt Genuine, like plain wood Open, like a valley Opaque, like muddy water Who can be muddled yet desist In stillness gradually become clear? Who can be serene yet persist In motion gradually come alive? One who holds this Tao does not wish to be overfilled Because one is not overfilled Therefore one can preserve and not create anew translation by derek lin i remember hearing how the usage of the plain block reference for pu implied that the wood had already been worked somehow into a block shape ready to be carved. when in actuality, it is subtler to say plain wood that has not yet even been shaped into a block...i like that imagery...plain wood... the last few lines are still somewhat puzzling to me, and i like how a few of the other translations and comments here have put that in a different light.

"Also, kids would love to hit the gong once in a while - it would just bring a nice different kind of life force to the entire work location." i really like this idea...and then every time you close a deal you could hit it obnoxiously...your co-workers would really love you then!! as far as me having some actual advice for you, i got nothin'. maybe other than i agree that i try to avoid the real pushy salespeople, if that's any consolation. good luck...

hey folks! i hope everyone is preparing for a relaxing holiday...even though i know we are all taoists and nobody has a christmas tree stashed away in the corner of their living room. i am new to this forum, obviously. i have been cultivating the tao for the last 8 - 10 yeas, and have just recently decided to join other forums and possibly participate in some discussions. have a very taoist holiday!

hey all... i kinda feel awful doing this, but please be aware that this post is my personal feeling and in now way an advertisement or an endorsement for any particular person! the translation of the ttc by derek lin is a great tool for helping to understand the tao. the thing i like the most about it is how accessible the translator is... so you can hear him talk about why he translated something a certain way. he hosts a weekly meeting that is free to listen to online where he talks about the ttc and how to apply it's lessons to life. i know it sounds like i am a paid spokesperson, but the ability to hear and talk to the author of a translation is pretty cool. it should also be noted that i do participate on that taoist form as well (in the interest of full disclosure). now, i promise this will be the last time i ever post a message of this type! take care, and happy holidays!