Jakara

Hi im the physicist. I work at one of the top universities, so less of the "so-called" :-) It depends if you want a detector or a spectrometer. Detectors are very simple, assuming you have the manufacturer's software code to interface the hardware (your detector) to some software, such as a c++ program. You can simply run an infinite loop (until you press a key) to check for "hits" of the infrared interaction then sound a "beep" when it does. Im sure it would have similar software included. eg while (key is not pressed) begin check for hit if (hit = true) beep end This will produce a sort of simple infrared geiger counter. If you want a spectrometer then you need to bin the response into a histogram and choose either different pitches for each energy or use a visual output like your monitor. If you have a good quality sensor with computer interface ability then you shouldnt have a problem at all.

To go along with the John Chang story, I think it says that there are 72 levels in his system corresponding to 72 chakras of the human body. The lower dan tian is one of those chakras, so if we believe his system, we should also believe in the chakras in general. I have yet to find a source which says chakras need to be "created" - as far as ive read everyone has chakras. Qigong also says the same, that we already have a dan tian, its part of being human. Perhaps Chang in this sense meant that we must fill it with qi to make it a 'useful', rather than actually create the chakra itself. So maybe he means create a useable dan tian, since all sources suggest we are all born with a dan tian. I just thought, the term 'dan tian' means something like 'elixir field' or 'cinnabar field', which, correct me if Im wrong, amounts to something like a 'field of qi'. So I think the chakra itself exists for everyone, but making it into a 'field of qi' or 'dan tian' by storing qi there might be what he means by 'creating the dan tian'. As far as storing qi is concerned, if I remember correctly the daoist texts say that the qi follows the will of the mind, or the mind-intent. So if we focus our mind on our dan tian whilst in meditation, it should naturally fill of its own accord. I think 'force' in this sense again means mind-intent, we shouldn't sit there physically trying to force chi into our bellies, I think that may be the path to hernias and hemorrhoids.

Hello to all! This is my first post here on thetaobums. Id like to ask about the success of any "thunder path(s)" of daoism, buddhism etc. Ive been doing research for a while now and here is generally what ive found: Daoism: We know the secrets, but we aren't telling you, good luck trying to crack our encrypted texts. Buddhism: We know the secrets, here's what they are .... but you need the initiations, good luck finding a qualified teacher, let alone one in your country. Kundalini: Do this stuff, it works, not quite sure why, but do it at your own peril, we cant be held liable for etc. Magus of Java: Here's what you could achieve, if only you knew what I did. So does anyone have a complete, orthodox and viable system thats accessible to the average person, doesn't cost $500 per hour, won't kill me, and that in the spirit of good will to all beings, they are willing to share with everyone? Im not looking for new powerful ways to do this, that and the other, simply an orthodox system that is traditionally used to shorten the time to enlightenment to one lifetime. Thanks :-) Jak

Handed on a silver platter? Do they exist anymore? Forget the teachings I want a silver platter. I don't want to bore anyone with the whole "this is my story" thing, but the long and short of it is, i put a lot of research in and a lot of effort in. I thought wow a forum, maybe someone has an answer that will save me doing more research, but it isn't the case and im sorry I asked. Adam, most of what I learned on Wu-Wei Daoism I learned from a teacher, but there are good texts out there. The basis is that Daoism can be thought of as a combination of three ways; Ritual, Alchemy and Meditation. That might seem obvious but the schools tend to focus more on one way than the other. The shamans and priests are almost purely ritualistic, the hermits and heroes tend to go for alchemy and then there's the wu-wei practitioners. They practice pure non-dualistic meditation. They have no ritual asides from meditation, the main text is the Dao De Jing and they use alchemy only to further the non-dualistic meditation. The wu-wei practitioners are always in the "here and now", so much that they fill any role that is required of them; priest, shaman, healer. But they do it without becoming entranced by the role, they are still wu-wei daoists. There are many stories of these types of people who've spend most of their lives in caves only to come down to a local village every now and then and teach the priests on what they've learnt and heal the sick. They are also able to perform rituals along side the other priests even though they have had no training. Anyway, good books are the Dao de jing, Zhaung zi, Lieh zi, Zen mind beginners mind, Being right here, Meditation now or never. The last three aren't written by daoists, I think they are Zen and Dzogchen, but the meanings and practices are the same. Ill have to look for some links and get back to you for internet stuff.

Good pop psychology. Of course if someone is advertising these systems like they have been doing its not unreasonable for others to be interested. But why publish all this stuff and write stories about the short path to enlightenment if its not accessible? Its like Dangling a carrot on a stick and saying we have this and you can't get it. Again it seems a bit un-buddhist. The only reason I would expect to take it under my own terms, as you so put it, is because it is advertised as a buddhist system - "For the benefit of all beings" is there some small print? : as long as they make it through our requirements? Im not looking for anyone to tell me what I supposedly want to hear. Im looking for evidence either way. Even a small example or account is fine, doesn't have to be a scientific paper on it. Thats all im asking, an appeal for someone with experience in these matters, not opinions without evidence. Pero seems to know a good deal on buddhism, but hasn't given any explanations yet, only "nope you can't do it". Excuse me if I don't take one persons word on it without reason. If people are bound by oath not to talk about their experiences then how are there so many books on it? Explaining their experiences? Magic and mystery in Tibet by alexandra david-neel for example. Unfortunately none of them go into detail on the whys and hows of the system, simply that they do it and what the results are.

It is difficult to describe religious doctrines and concepts with words. But youre right, there is too much debating about this, that and the other. Just want to hear from someone with experience in the 6 yogas of naropa or other similar practices.

After a quick reference to wikipedia, that hugely authorative source, the buddha was indeed a boddhisattva before becoming a buddha; how interesting. That seems slightly odd, the stories say he acheived enlightenment without help from other beings, but other beings must have helped him from his previous lives. I thought daoism was confusing. Ok so we now know that atleast one initiation can be done on our own without a teacher, though we may require a teacher to learn the practices that are being used as the initiation in the first place. Still, its sort of some progress. Apparently the initiations for the six yogas are for permission to use the deity in a visualisation technique. The practices can be done without the initiation (how effective they are without initiation it doesnt say) but one must visualise the self as the self and not as the deity that the initiation is required for. This would suggest that if we want to practice the six yogas exactly according to the Vajra tradition we must have the initiation. But it doenst say we cant practice them without initiation for another motive. The authorities on this aren't very clear.

Likewise. Im not a Dzogchen practitioner and don't claim anything I haven't read from a respectable source. The Buddha would have been a boddhisatva then wouldn't he? A buddha can't be reincarnated by definition, else he's a boddhisatva. I agree to some extent that a teacher is highly recommended or perhaps even essential, though I am aware of a few individuals with high attainments and no teachers. Its not impossible, just improbable. Though im debating the point of initiation and not whether or not a teacher is required. Lets take an example from Heart Drops of Dharmakaya, a Dzogchen manual: The practice of trekcho: "First we should get into the right state for the essential ripening of the mind. For this purpose it is necessary to receive the initiation. However, if you come through the preliminary practices you will receive the initiation through the practice itself. The initiation is to show you the natural state, if you do the preliminary practices you will see the natural state and therefore already have the initiation." So in this context, the initiation is neccessary, but it does not require a teacher to bestow it upon the student - because the student has the appropriate experience from preliminary practices. This is what I mean, if we have enough experience in similar techniques, is it really neccessary to receive initiation from a teacher, given that our previous experience does the same job? The initiation must have a function, it must serve a purpose, it cant simply be a traditional ritual that has no practical value or it can easily be by-passed. But if it does have practical value then a similar experience could be used as a substitute, given they serve the same purpose. Either way the initiation, specifically from a teacher, is not neccesary in this example. This might not be the case for other practices however, im prodominantley daoist and still researching buddhist techniques, hence my line of questioning and appeal from anyone who does practice these advanced yogas. Are the initiations an absolute must? Can we not acheive any results at all without them? Is there a magical barrier between us and our success that can only be lifted with a special empowerment?

Don't want to be a stick in the mud but take it with a pinch of salt. Im a professional astro-physicist and this is grade-A Bull S. All the evidence is circumstancial and I dont know how much they paid those jokers to say what they did because its simply not true! Unless the editors did the old trick of cutting scenes of people talking to make a video thats not actually what they said at all - this happens a lot. Interesting if not amusing.

Transmissions are not the same as initiations. Daoist practices do not always require initiations, the ritual acceptance of a student does, but not every successfull practitioner was ritually accepted as a student. Transmissions of knowledge whatever form they take, even from books, are helpful and reduce time if they are understood, but even they arent neccessary. We know that the original buddha acheived enlightenment without help from other teachers. Thanks for the advice, though I do not require being told what to do by some guy across the internet. The appeal here is for experienced practitioners to come forward with their experience and discuss using intellectual reason, not to participate in an online arguement. Initiations might simply have been a requirement for the orthodox propagation of a lineage system, but that doesnt mean the system cant be practiced without them. The lineage is supposed to ensure the validity of the teachings, but it isnt the teaching itself. Dzogchen has its lineage yes, but anyone can practice the practices and acheive the same results if it is done properly. Dzogchen has a lot of tradition associated with it, but it is just tradition, the practice itself is pure like wu-wei daoism, its non-elitist and does not require lineage or tradition. These things are human invented and dualistic in nature. Dzogchen means non-dualistic reality, the association of principles to this is not appropriate - they are dualistic!

I am simply stating that the practices exist and they do not require initiation, I however do not have access to those teachings - the daoists can be very secretive! But the 6 yogas are in plain sight for everyone to see, there are books on them - but they require initiations. So this is why I ask do we need initiation. The six yogas is a complete proven system with excellent accessibility, the initiation is the only draw back. There are a lot of people who think wu-wei daoism (think dao de jing) and dzogchen have the same source, it isn't unthinkable given the silk road and the constant interaction between the tibetans and the chinese - and the indians for that matter. I recall one of the first parts of the dao de jing as saying names that are named are not true names (ming ke ming, fei chang ming) which means naming things brings them out of non-dualistic reality and into the dualistic reality. Saying that dzogchen is not dzogchen without the proper lineage is simply not correct. If the practices are practiced and the same results obtained then it is the same, regardless of lineage. Dzogchen means the natural primordial non-dualistic state, how can any lineage or dogma have anything to do with that? Its a contradiction in terms. Lineage is important to establish the frauds from the orthodox practitioners, but it doesnt gurantee anything. What happened before the organization of these religions? Where the same standardized initiations still given then? I doubt it. Initiations seem a largely ritual aspect of a tradition, something that only seems required in traditions with a shamanistic history. The shaman had a student who had to be initiated. Perhaps this has propagated into the modern practices? Bon, Daoism and Hinduism all have shamanistic roots. Tibetan buddhism obviously has huge influences from Bon.

Its annoying how politics and human concerns can get in the way of the teachings and the access to them. The dalai lama is visiting England next year and giving a Vajrayana empowerment/initiation along with lectures. I have tickets for it anyway so may end up with some sort of empowerment. Im not sure what it does though. Hmmm, so what about experiences that are so similar to another that you wouldnt need the original. For example, I was under the guidance of wu-wei daoist teacher for a while, the teachings are so similar to dzogchen that one could easily practice the dzogchen methods even though technically he is not a dzogchen teacher. The tibetan lineage is not required here, his lineage is completely chinese daoist but because the dzogchen teachings are almost identical, the system under his guidance is completely accessible. Im sure many of us on here practice or have some experience with the martial arts, and would agree that after a few years of practice we no longer require as much attention from our teacher. When we are taught new sets we dont need them explaining so much because a sort of understanding has developed over the years and we can already see how it works. So with an excellent foundation in one style, one can easily look at another style of martial arts and see how it works. It would take me a minimal amount of time to learn a new style compared to a beginner simply because of the previous experience. I have had Qigong, Dao Yin and non-dualistic meditation teachings from daoist preists on retreats on many occasions, and have a good feel for how they work. So having this experience, can one not simply apply the previous experience to something like the six yogas of naropa with a decent amount of success given that they are similar? Could such experience mean that empowerments, although beneficial, may not be required if we already have a good understanding?

I think I recall the original Buddha saying something along the lines of enlightenment being for everybody, all races and classes of people, every human being. To hide enlightenment techniques such as the yogas seems a bit un-buddhist of those buddhist traditions. The tantric buddhists owe their lineage to the original buddha, who did not discriminate. Apparently only the special or elite class of people are aloud access to these techniques? I find that hard to believe. If these techniques were intended for the good of humanity then all humanity should be able to practice them unhindered. Perhaps religious dogma (as always it seems) has gotten in the way of the original teachings. Its easy to see why if we look at the shamanistic and martial influences on the systems from ancient china and tibet. If a system could make your clan more powerful you wouldnt want the clan next door to know about it. Anyway I can sit here and speculate all day and not get anywhere :-) Anyone with hard experience with the six yogas or similar daoist techniques care to comment?

So as far as I know in the daoist traditions there are a few types of immortal, like earthly, heavenly etc and then there is becoming one with dao itself, where one ceases to be individual in that sense, presumabley by the unwinding of thier qi. Becoming one of the immortals requires training in that particular type of cultivation to change one's qi alchemy into the required "format" to become the immortal. In the tibetan buddhist system (again as far as I know) when we die we become reborn into one of the 6 realms; hell, hungry ghost, animal, human, demi-god and god (for want of better phrases). Our kama/qi patterns again determine what we are reborn as. Or we can become liberated as a non-being, becoming part of the universal existence itself. So what I mean is, we can shape our qi to become an immortal using the alchemical path (John Chang is a popular example) or the same technique to become a deity. But we can bypass all this and become liberated completely, hence the deity is not liberated and still subject to a rebirth at some point (according to certain buddhist doctrine). So anyway, the so called 'highest' paths (eg wu-wei daoism and dzogchen) are meant to be where we are going straight for liberation - but auxillary methods like qigong and inner alchemy that are usually used to become a deity or immortal can be used to speed up the process. But obviously they aren't used in the same way or we would become an immortal. This is what i meant by 'tailoring' of the methods to a sepcific tradition. The alchemy methods must be to some extent 'generic' that we can tailor for a specific purpose. Yes to become whatever a Vajra practitioner becomes they may require the Vajra initiations, but that does not mean we can't use the same techniques, stripped of the 'tailoring' and apply it for a different aim. Or does it? This is the interesting question. Many sources indicate that we can use these techniques because Qigong is generic, and has such a huge number of practices that are similar to buddhist alchemies it seems highly likely. Why not use one of these Qigong methods? The daoists have encrypted texts and are very secretive about them :-) The buddhists are more liberal but insist of initiations. But are these initiations still required if we make the teachings generic so they are more like daoist teachings? Given that they are so similar to begin with.

Im not accepting Tummo as fact, it just has a reasonable amount of proof conducted by non crack-pot scientists at a respected institute. I do accept the deity transformation, but transforming oneself into a deity or immortal is not the same as becoming one with Dao or reaching Nirvana, they are two different paths using different techniques (according to the daoists). I have an intellectual understanding of the processes involved, though no practical experience with deity transformation. I have received excellent teachings on non-dualistic meditation and yes having the teacher there really does help. But finding one for alchemical processes is not an easy task so many are left to their own devices. I think with enough background in meditation and a good understanding of other similar practices it shouldnt be too hard to do practices such as the six yogas without initiation. But my point here is not to participate in a typical internet debate where everyone knows best and they all want their opinion to count. I simply want to know if there are any viable systems out there that are available, or are the existing ones available without initiation/empowerments. If they aren't accessible without initiation then please explain in detail why they are not, or give examples as to why. Im aware that its harder to do practices without guidance, but that doesn't mean we have to attend some ritual for permission to be able to do a practice that is essentially human, not owned by a religion or tradition.

I find it hard to accept religious doctrine as "fact", as a proffesional physicist im taught to look at the evidence, which is what we are trying to do. If you have some accounts of people who have tried to do the six yogas and failed due to not having the correct initiations then thats fair enough. But I don't want to simply accept what a book or a teacher or even a whole tradition says as fact simply because they say it is, without any reason. According to some texts the six yogas doesn't neccessarily transform oneself into a deity, it can be used as an accelerant to becoming enlightened, in which case we cease to be a deity as such. But this isn't what troubles me, what troubles me is that there are many similar practices out there under the name of QiGong, to take one example, that require no religious aspiration at all. The results can be acheived without initiations, even if ther are very helpful. I was under the impression that energy work (such as QiGong or Pranayama) in this sense is used as a tool, or as a means to an end; enlightenment for example, and that the religious doctrine associated with it simply tailors it to the required specification. We know about martial artists who can harness these systems for use in martial power, healers using it for healing and the religious can use it for religious goals. So perhaps if one wants to become a deity in Vajrayana we must have the correct empowerments. But can we not simply use the same "tools" i.e. Tummo in the six yogas for other spiritual acheivement?

Ok, so although I am interested in ritual in general, in this particular discussion im just talking about the alchemy aspects of the various traditions. So thunder magic, although interesting, isn't what I mean. What gets me is that if these traditions, such as daoism, tantric buddhism etc all have similar internal alchemy methods and one requires initiations whereas the others do not, are the initiations an absolute must? Can we not strip away the religious dogma associated with what must essentially be a "human" practice regardless of religious orientation? Matt, Im not fussed about Chang's martial abilities, but his advancement along the path to enlightenment does interest me. Though as i said before, im sure there are (easier) systems that get the same "spiritual" results without the martial aspect of it.

Ok good stuff so far, I haven't yet explored the Hindu yogic systems, which is perhaps surprising as its apparently where it all started. Should be a treat to read into the Indian pranayama systems. Ive previously avoided the kundalini stuff because of its non orthodox, almost hippy-like status. So to reiterate, the most accessible and complete system with some (limited) proof would be the six yogas system with or without the initiations.

Ok thats interesting, so are you saying that it is completely viable to practice a system without initiations, only the practitioner would be at more of a disadvantage than someone who had taken the initiations?

Ah I see. I guess it was a long shot. Thanks for the replies so far. The best chance I think then is to pursue the 6 yogas of Naropa system and try to somehow get the empowerments? I choose this system because the claims have (to some extent) been verified by harvard university: http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html as well as having a large following. Does anyone know if empowerments/initiations are absolutely essential, as in you literally cannot do the practice with any success without them, or are they just highly recommended?

Thanks for the advice. I agree, non-dualistic meditation forms the body of my daily practice. It really is priceless. I am however looking for the auxillary practice, that complements the non-dualistic meditation. Take the excellent dzogchen text "Heart drops of dharmakaya" for example, it is pure non-dualistic meditation, but it has a chapter about auxillary yogic practices to speeden and compliment the pure meditation. It too however goes on about acquiring the necessary empowerments. Easy if you lived in tibet whent he text was written, just pop down to your local temple :-) but there are next to zero qualified teachers in the UK.

I agree, apathy can often take control, its usually enough to sort those who really want to do the practice and those who don't. I can't vouch for other people but I think if there were a system freely available with proven results then there would be a lot of adherents, i'd certainly be one of them. The problem is as always finding an authentic system. When I say the average person I mean just an average person who genuinely wants to learn these practices with no non-sense. Yes I think Chang says his system was daoist derived but he himself was not daoist. I think his system is a very small piece of the pie though so to speak. There must be many systems out there that aren't as martially focussed?

I was under the impression that spiritual traditions and teachings should be free? Or atleast non-profit, by all means claim travel expenses :-) I guess trying to measure their worth in monetary value wouldnt be an easy thing to do, but that doesn't stop many so called "masters" from trying. Its a little frustrating that the daoist systems seem to require no "initiation" whereas the tantric systems do, although very few people are allowed access to the daoist systems. What's the deal? Can the tantric systems be practiced without the initiations/empowerments? For example Naropa's six yogas.

Thanks for the replies so far. Only $495? - Bargain, do I get a free gift? Ive heard interesting things about this Lama Dorje, can anyone verify any of the abilities that are associated with using such a path? Real abilities here, not just a funny feeling in the tummy. Ive heard less about david shen, not that the hearsay of internet forums are authorative. I have read many many threads on many forums, and thought Id make an actual appeal for the thing that many of us are searching for...

Just a quick post to do the whole "Introduction" thing. Im from the UK, doing some research into Daoist and Buddhist methods.