SiliconValley

Again, this is an uninformed statement. Firstly, Shankara insists there is a difference and the effect of his teachings can be seen in India to this day, which is the birthplace of Buddhism. The goals within various branches of even Hinduism are not the same, forget other traditions. Even among those who seem to aim towards Kaivalya or Nirvana, the concepts, definitions and approaches of each of these is vastly different. Care to substantiate on what basis you think except Buddhism others have the same goal? What are the subtelities of different traditions you have studied based on which you draw this conclusion? I can only speak for a few of the many branches of Hinduism that I have studied. Since you brought up Shaivism, which of its branches were you referring to in this context as having a goal that was same as every other tradition and involving a certain assumed lower level of deep understanding? Krama, Trika, Spanda, Siddhanta, Kaula? Can you please substantiate your statement with something other than a hearsay or "half-baked academic" translations? If Nagarjuna can be considered enlightened, so can be Shankara, Patanjali, Kanada, Gautama, Vasistha and other seers, some of who have clearly influenced the Shakyamuni. Those who resonate with what Buddha taught, accept and follow his teachings and others do the same elsewhere. But I don't see a supposedly enlightened personality as a valid argument here. That's exactly what I am trying to say. Most of these folks understand Buddhism but this critique of Advaita stems from their non-thorough-understanding of some of the critical but subtle concepts of Advaita. I wouldn't call it a mere understanding for that would mean something you did not know before or something you could do with a mind or sense. This word seems to strip the state of some of its silent grandeur. Well, what's in a name though?

You should also note that various deities worshiped in Tantric sects of Buddhism are borrowed from Hindu Tantras. Their mantras also have been retained with some regional corruptions. Advaita Vedanta is never taught as medicine for ALL in Hinduism. There are pre-requisites for studying Vedanta, of whose many branches Advaita is one flavor, and these are the Shat Sampattis or virtues or behavioral traits such as discriminative knowledge, dispassion, sensory control etc. For those who are unqualified, which really is 99% of the crowd, various other paths are taught by the Veda, like Karma and Upasana - which are steps leading to the acquisition of the qualification for Vedanta. So the masters talk of Adhikara or Qualification as the basis for what is taught to who. Someone undergoes the period of maturity through Yoga, another through upasana or worship of a certain deity, and yet another through bhakti (which really means unceasing and non-selfish love towards the Divine). These preparatory steps are never considered silly even by the adepts. Shankara himself, though considered as born perfect and an incarnation, to demonstrate this model of Sopana Krama (Gradual Ascent) studied Hatha Yoga, Raja Yoga and finally Jnana Yoga - each for an year. Some Tantras go to the extent of stating that the path of Jnana Yoga (can mean Advaita) and that of an ascetic is (directly) unsuitable for the current times we live in (Kali Yuga) without other preparatory practices. This may not apply to all, but sure does seem to apply for many! There is a lot of Buddhist mythology as well, a lot of it borrowed from Hinduism. The real goal of a serious aspirant is to look beyond the wrap of these mythologies to understand the hidden language. The scriptures or mythologies have to be interpreted through sandhya bhasha or the language of twilight. Indra, the king of the Demi gods who is described as seducing women is simply a symbol for "Indriya" or the Sense Organ, whose main distractions are Kama and Krodha (Lust and Anger) and Hunger for Power. So it is really funny to dismiss an entire gamut of spiritual teaching as "ridiculous" based on one class, probably taught by someone who interpreted them literally! Does not the same apply to mythologies of various cultures? There have been people who have benefited from the teachings embedded in such mythologies, to whatever extent, and there will be those who continue to benefit. These mythologies mostly occur in Purnas which are simplified commentaries on the Vedas. The complex teachings of the Vedas were made available to the common folks through Puranas or Tales and these were taught by specialists named pauranikas who were well-versed in various related branches like chandas or grammar, mimamsa or the ritual and the upanishads. Lack of this ...what should I say...wholesome learning - is what has lead to the recent ridicule and misinterpretation of these tales or myths. Moreover, the "various" deities are described as various rays or emanations of the three qualities (Satva, Rajas and Tamas) of the qualified or conditioned Brahman named Ishvara who perform various activities, like the various organs in the body. At the end of the day, when one reaches the state of realizing Atman as the sole Entity, much like everything else, these deities cease to exist. However, at some empirical level, they have their existence, and also their use in one's spiritual journey. It simply is a matter of what one's goal is and how the deities are approached. When worshiped for knowledge and not petty means, these deities, who are certainly at a higher plane than mortals, can help one cultivate one or more of the required virtues or even teach directly the Royal Path of Jnana (jhana? ). My Guru, for instance, whose main practice is Tantra based on Kashmiri Shaivism (another sophisticated flavor of Advaita with similarities to Kevaladvaita), received his first experiential teaching of the Upanishads from Chinnamasta, a popular Goddess worshiped both by Tantric Hindus and Buddhists. But what is the view of the Classic Advaitin? Shankara says: Ishvaraanugrahaadeva pumsaam advaitavaasanaa | Even the desire to approach Non-duality is generated in a mortal through the "Grace" of Ishwara or the conditioned Brahman. Here, he is implicitly speaking of the, shall we say, "second class" citizens who require grace, worship of conditioned (Saguna) Brahman and other practices before they can take to inquiry/contemplation for Realization. This is the view of the Jnana Margins or of Advaitins. The dualisits, samkhyas, purva mimamsakas, the dvaitins, the vishsishtadvaitins have other theories on realization. It is a matter of different paths and cultures! But is there a need to proclaim "superiority" of one's enlightenment over another's based on half-baked academic writings - when neither the ones who wrote them nor the ones who are reading them are really enlightened? Peace and Blessings...

Well that's you your view really! The same can be said other way round ... the subtle but important key is very difficult to grasp for someone "stuck" in Nihilistic views. There have been similar discussions on Shankara and Buddhism on E-Sangha but not one has ever been really useful. By the way it is just your opinion or the opinion of some of the Buddhists that Advaita Vedanta (I am assuming you are talking of Shankara's version named Kevaladvaita) speaks of an enlightenment which is someway "inferior" to the Buddhist concept of the same. Most of the articles that seem to be making round on the www have all been written by those who are really pro-Madhyamika academicians who really have a superficial and non-traditional knowledge of Advaita. Advaita Vedanta has had extremely scholarly refutation of the Buddhist concepts. Unfortunately a lot of these never got translated to English on account of the complexities involved in translation but are readily available in German and Sanskrit. Meanwhile, Neo-Advaita seems to have taken over which many a time has made one "lazy" and nothing more. So, it is simply your take that "Eternalism" is a stuck up concept. Neither you nor I are "Enlightened" and till that time, we can have pre-conceived notions of our own. That's okay

A group named Ipsalu teaches a certain technique called the Cobra Breath. Any idea what it is about? They teach it in four levels and each level costs a shit load of money. From a friend, I understand that the technique roughly involves breathing up the spine and exhaling with a hissing sound. Any information about this would be appreciated as they call this the "True" kriya yoga and I am interested to know how this differs from the more mainstream kriya.

Reading a lot of Chris's posts, who obviously is the official Kunlun mascot (unless Max denies), here is the picture one gets: 1. Kunlun is THE practice, quick fix for all ills and road to enlightenment. 2. Kunlun is available for all and there really is no qualification or a certain level of preparedness required. 3. There is a lot of talk about bliss and a vague remark about facing inner demons. And note that the latter part is a very recent addition to their website. Cam's case was described as one among a thousand by Chris, which naturally means things are somewhat gonna be smooth for the rest of 999, which obviously is not the case. 4. One seminar with Max is all that's required - that would mean no help from the teacher is required. Just go through what's happening and things are going to be fine. With no pre-qual for kunlun and no post-practice support, is every individual being assumed capable of dealing with whatever comes up. And at this point, we (kunluners) are assuming that there is light at the end of this purgatory period. But there is really no consensus on the nature of this seemingly "dark" period. After all, it is max who has talked of aliens, nagas and entities and that leaves one open to a broad array of speculaion. 5. Max has been aggressively marketed as a Bodhisatva by the kunlun folks right on this forum. And Max seems to approve of such marketing by remaining silent. I guess a few impressionable friends here actually believe this statement and expect nothing less than perfection from Max or Kunlun. And the way this pair has been marketed does not help in setting expectations right either. I was probably the first to talk about entities and kunlun and also the first to shut up after sensing a hostile environment. Just for a fact, in spite of what that Chris dude wrote here, Tolledo is a genuinely nice guy with his own set of convictions. Many things he said didn't seem as ridiculos as before. And there is yet another intresting angle to all this. A friend who attended the SF seminar went through a lot of issues and lost her job due to chronic depression. She got help from a shaman in new Mexico and is doing fine now. I ask her to post her experiences here just for the sake of those who know not what this journey is all about, but she's reluctant and says she is scared of Max...and insists she has her reasons. Is there a need to fear Max, I don't think so, but I have heard this from three folks who just don't wanna speak up! Yes, we did talk about assuming responsiblity but does 'let go' anthem of Kunlun dictate letting of every sense of control and responsibility? Is answer to every question 'walk the path' when there is really no consensus on whether the path will lead one anywhere? There is no proof of anything significant and verifiable like Taomeow would prefer other than some writings that try to sound desperately mystic and writings that turn to dots in minutes....

Winpro... I told Yoda I would never post on TTB again but naw... I will do a Cameron You are such an ASS. I said this before doing Kunlun and say this after a seminar with lama dorje or whatever he is: Kunlun got nothing to do with compassion, which is so very important. You are a living example of that! I am glad to have gotten away from Kunlun. Releasing inner demons, keeping calm, staying in control .... yeah yeah, if I knew all that, I didn't need Kunlun, or lama dorje or a seminar. And where did he ever talk of all this in the book or seminar? Folks need to think through before getting into this shit! You seem to be a glorious example of what happens to those who mindlessly follow this dorje guy. I am sorry, but this is so frustrating to see your kind leap at mgd n yoda who r tryin to make some sense. I tried that long ago and got the same bullshit from you. If you are the perfect example of what dorje guy does to people, heaven save me! Winpro+dorje+kunlun = total lack of open mindedness and compassion? Not a great advertizement for kunlun right? And a hi to all old pals...scotty, xienkula, mat black, sean, sunshine, sykkelpm, hundun, little1, yoda ... have been away for long time now! Took a few months off for a retreat and now back to see the k-word generating the same amount of buzz! lol

Well, I am not sure where you are coming from. The tattvas vary with different systems. The Kashmiri Shaivas have 36 Tattvas where Shiva is the 36th and Paramashiva is the transcendent one. Shakti, in pure shaivaite schools does not represent something that pervades all tattvas but simply the second tattva of the shuddha or the pure category. That is shaiva view. Then there is the Shakta view, especially the Uttara Kaula one, where Shakti has absorbed shiva in her and there is no seperate existence defined for him at all. That being the case, she is not referred to as Shakti, one of the 36 categories, but rather as Parashakti, the transcendent 37th. It is her I am referring to, who is beyond tattvas, one of which is Shakti tattva. The view you state, probably picked from Saundaryalahari, is from that school. And there is the Samaya school with twenty-five tattvas and so on. So, it is helpful if you state what school you were talking about But I agree with you. What I was trying to state is that Parashakti, who encompasses shiva in herself, is beyond tattvas including shakti - by which I mean vibration, energy or movement or even a procreative desire to go dual - for these are her aspects and in no way represent her complete glory. That said, each tattva has a definite definition and characteristic and the reason for the division of shiva or mahat into categories is because of Shakti. She is the cause and hence in a way pervading each of the tattvas. This really is the reason why manifested universe is possible only with her presence and not by Paramashiva alone, who represents the Shantyatita avastha, as described in Saundaryalahari. But can she be purely identified with these tattvas which are considered as ashuddha or shuddhashuddha, then the answer would technically be no. Sugar mixed in milk really pervades the entire milk, but is it milk....yes and no... Also, the 37th Transcendent tattva is undifferentiated where the division of shiva and shakti, which is rather apparent, has not occurred. In that state, the concept of shakti being with shiva really does not occur for the polarity has not occured. It is this Pure, undifferentiated Divinity that shaivas call Paramashiva and Shaktas call Parashakti. But the concept of shiva being non-separate from shakti can occur only after the undifferentiated tattva has given way to emerging stages of seed, sprout or full-blown state of apparent polarity - as shiva and shakti. This is the state where great masters stress on the still existing unity for in the former case of Paramashiva/Parashakti, this unity need not be explicitly stated. Totally agree with you... It is a divine, sacred experience and selling it does not seem right. But mysterious are Her ways

I am sorry if my words somehow meant that ... I probably didn't articulate too well... Apologies

So you say, there are two steps: - One, "open" your channels - in whatever way ... - Two, then go to the master, say Max, to get a transmission which means something that is not present already in the now "open" channel, will be transmitted from the master to the disciple... Okay! That's your perspective...I hear you I am not sure if you have heard of Shaktipata - which does not simply mean awakening Kundalini. Of course there are various grades of Shaktipata. Osho could project blissful energy and people would spend days in a blissful state. My cat, who I constantly experimented on with various healing methods, could actually send out blasts of energy and she was really popular in the neighborhood on this account. The great masters of Tantra describe Shambhava Mahavedha. The Master, first burns the karma of the disciple, opens his chakras and channels swiftly but gently like a young maiden opening the petals of the lotus flower, tugs the primal power gently like a mother waking her sleeping baby and the queen walks up to her husband, decked in jewels, with grace, spreading love and light as she ascends towards marital bliss, illuminating the six palaces. There is opening here, there is transmission here, there is a climax here. There is no force here. And there is no damage. All it takes is a skillful master and the mysterious grace of the divine. Such a master is called a "Siddha", a truly accomplished one. And the disciple is then called Sadyah mukta - totally and instantaneously liberated. There is nothing to practice, nothing to let go and no moving of energies associated with physical body. And this is accomplished in a maximum of approx 7.5 minutes. Such masters are indeed rare, but that IMO can be called somewhat quick ... Again, I have not experienced it, but only heard from my master, and I am simply recounting here to say that there is no one way and certainly not one fixed way or even a repititive pattern...there are many ways, and some do not expect the student to be "open", at least energetically. Energy, movements, bliss, cough, cold, twitch, pain, telpathy, depression ... all these are experienced through the five senses and their leader called mind.. ha ha.. I would not pitch much hope on them But again, that's my perspective and everyone has his! Peace and Blessings ...

I thought I should ask the question...do you still have a mind? Never mind brother... whatever happens is for good

The thing being repeated over and over is "to be open". While I leave it to the the crowd to decide if that means having an open mind, an open heart, a mind open to a person's suggestion or the energy body left open to an external influence. While there is nothing that one does not already have that we need "to receive" from outside, I am following the same terminology that is lingering in this thread (receive energy, receive light etc.) If we consider opening heart or something to that effect, is it as easy as it is described through poetry or lovey dovey words? If one were "open", he has the nature around him to give him what he needs, and why Kunlun or a paid seminar? Moreover, does not a master actually "open" the disciple for that's all he needs to do! Be open (whatever that means) or this won't work is so not Tao! Have we all not felt the same way sometime or the other? I met Sifu A and found him the best thing to happen to me at that time. Then I met Sifu B who seemed better and then there was Sifu C's teaching that seemed best, different and the real deal. Probably there will be Ds and Es coming in the future. All of them served their purpose in a certain way and things seemed better and different each time, in a progressive sort of a way. But really, I would think, this is similar to a person seeing the outside world from the train. The scenes which keep changing are not really changing. Its the one seeing that is moving or progressing. What once seemed like spontaneous movement can now seem like tossing, and what is now bliss can later seem to be some good but passable times. One cannot really conclude till the one has really reached the goal, isn't it? And once that goal is reached, there is neither further practice required, to progress or sustain, nor is there a need to ponder over the practice, positively or negatively. It is time for new goals, if any remain. Yes, this is true! Hasn't he moved you hither tither as well? No Max, Yes Max, Yes SJ, No SJ, Upward Flow, Downward flow ... A Magical and blissful journey with the background track...meooow meooow... And thinking about all this, I have my new theory of controversy! I am positive Mantra, SJ, Taomeow and Spirit Ape are the same person! Two for and two against ... When the Kunlun wave goes down a bit on this forum, it is revived by means unknown!!! Now I am contemplating whether I am an avatar of this mystery Kunlun man as well ... Never been in such an identity crisis before...

Hugged one and saw the other. Did nothing. Hugging lady seemed to have a sense of innocence about her but her energy was kind of crude or unrefined. But somehow it didn't seem "pure" in spite of being unprocessed. People claim she is an incarnation of Kali, but Kali being the deity I am initiated into, there seems to be nothing similar. Kali is death and life in the same instance, with a huge shock value that turns everything into nothing at the drop of a hat and then there is a majestic silence which cannot be qualified with adjectives. While she is more loving than anything else in the world, expressions of her love can be in ways quite unexpected. When people talk of "top of bottom", "bottom to top", Kundalini being one of these and/or fire or water, it seems so funny, and so very ignorant. Energy, stillness and vibration are not really what the Divine Lady is all about but rather small aspects of her. Shakti itself is not the Divine Lady for it is merely one of the 36 principles that she transcends. And this shakti is what includes top down, bottom up, left right or fire or water and all that energetic stuff. From an areal view, these definitions really don't fit into the big picture on their own merit. Everything associated with her is spectacular, larger than life and extremely subtle at the same time. After all, the triad of the seer, the seen and the process of seeing are ONE. That being the case, how can the technique to approach the one beyond direction, movement or lack of these be confined or even possible to be defined through one of these phrases exhibiting limitation? That really seems to be the reason why saints in many cultures describe a truly divine awakening as spontaneous, as expanding and contracting at the same time in all directions. What does not fit this description indeed is an energetic phenomena, a signpost and simply that. And that hardly is of ultimate interest! So coming back, did not really feel anything on these lines about the hugging saint. She was ok, but felt nothing spectacular. As for Meera ... I know her rather well

Yeah, a friend told me the same about Gurumayi. While she gave shaktipat, she was talking to someone, writing something, eating something and all that... Not that a real master needs to sit tight to transmit a spark...but he felt nothing as well... so far based on the feedback I've heard, Santi, Imransyah and Mystress are the three people where folks actually felt some energy...

Awesome! I am really impressed with those Bell ringers. By the way any one uses Tibetan Singing bowls (A CD I mean)? I have tried klauss Weise, Danny Becher and Suarsu but Benjamin Iobst seems to be the best. Using Neuroprogrammer, I mixed the Tibetan Bowls with Holosync and that is really sounding good!

That is the purpose of this list, to get feedback...you probably didn't read the first post and jumped in... His structure of shaktipat seems different from others. Anyway, I received some 15 PMs about Mystress and every one said good things. My brother got me a b'day gift and guess what....a tummo session with Mystress (Sigmund actually). It is set up for 18th. After my Kunlun debacle, I am not too sure if I want to try anything new, especially that I am quite happy with my current practice. But then there is also this temptation you see... Still thinking what to do ...

On a serious note, that seems like a perfect idea. That may clear up a lot of things or grant deeper insight into what is only understood partially as of now.

I know!! And reading some of your posts evoke a similar feeling.... I am trying so hard to resist KAP .....

SJ .... run !!!!

Well I hate to sound the way I am going to, but this was never told before! I am not interested in Kunlun history but it certainly is fun to watch the "official" version change so many times. First there was one story, there was something else later, then the Jenny element came, after she rejected the "official" version, she was described as not knowing it herself and now the origin is symbolic. I do understand that a lot of these metaphysical techniques come with symbolic anecdotes but it has taken a long time for the official Kunlun history to reach this interpretation. There are many who will now jump in and say they don't care and only want to practice, good for you Anyway, there is an old Hindu saying: the rishi and nadi mulas i.e. the origin of a river or a sage should never be investigated or questioned. It is probably in the best interest of many to leave these questions unanswered lest someone accuse you of creating doubts in the minds of "serious" practitioners. And I am not Starjumper in case someone thinks I am an avtar of his or something he he ... Many of you have met me

Yeah, my friend who is studying with Tao Semko told me of a nice shaking practice that Tao taught for balance. I believe that method was taught by Dr. Glen Morris. I don't know the specifics but it was part of the water element training I am told. I guess Santi teaches it as well...

Thank you! This brings back memories of MCKS who is certainly one of the most energetically powerful masters I ever saw. His Aura did not seem to end but extend in every direction and being in his presence felt like home. He looked at me a bit, smiled and it felt like my entire body entered a state of spontaneous combustion... Wow! Wish he stayed longer on physical realm with us...

A Qigong system named Infinite Sky I learnt from a person in Hong kong had shaking at both the beginning and end of qigong. Sifu taught us shaking specific parts of the body in specific way in the beginning but to conclude, he would have us shake mostly in small spirals and let the spiral shaking build up from the bottom of spine up till one felt ectastic. He warned us however to do grounding without fail after this shaking session. This system seemed to agree very well with me for it surely had something to do with Kundalini.

Sorry, I forgot to say that ... Here is the book.

Cat, What is the reason for your question? - Are you angry about these "negative" things being said about a system which you practice and believe is good for you? or... - You want to investigate further to know if there is even an iota of truth in what is being said by several people now...ranging from demon theory, to excessive marketing to wild claims? Just asking ...