XieJia

Indeed true and ever so true; however I also like ChiDragon's translation of last part of 46. When All under Heaven knows the being of beauty of the beautiful; ugliness's there already. With the analogy of stepping forward, the world moves backwards; does it not? So I would think the two comes into being simutaneously. However, the Ancient Chinese Language with things deriving from symbology. The Beautiful and the Enough and any other can also be view as pure nouns. We think we can see this from further, examing the remainder of chapter 2. This is to view it from the multifold functions; all are adjectives when discribing One. @Lienshan do you think there's a possiblity that the original LaoZi doesn't have all the chapters that we thought the DDJ to have?

知足之为足，此恒足矣。 Knowing enough is doing enough, this is ever enough! In my opinion, zhi is indeed what you stated. I believe what is state here is the zhi zu is the subjective form of wei zu. Elaborating further Know Enough is the subjective, do enough is the objective. The chapter goes in form of stating the objective and then the subjective; the last one is the subjective and then objective. I understood your point about comparing the different scripts. P.S. Where did you get the Chinese text for the Great One and Water? @dawei Cheers!!

Nice and clear, thank you. If from what I understood from you and your impression, I must say that I agree to it. But it Will change many things for me and my understanding of what Daoism is. I will ultimately check out the Guodian text and All Under Heavens of ZhuangZi's again; as for now I am not sure what is actually Daoist or not Daoist anymore. You have my gratitude, thank you again.

Dear lienshan, please correct me if i am mistaken, i am still not quite clear on how to express it in words. The subjective Dao of Lao Zi is that the Dao is the thing experienced by the man, by being one with that one act accordingly to the circumstances. The Shen Dao's Dao is the collective Dao that encompass all myriad things, which you defined as Objective Dao. I still dont see the differences it makes if we were still concieve it from the mind, does 無 or 有, subjective or objective makes that different? Nor is it important or unimportant? In the end, did LaoZi means that two are the same with different names? So LaoZi's Dao is the Here and Now of each individuals? is that what you are stating? Sorry for being a hassel and Thank You

Dear lienshan, Thank you for your comments; however I am still quite confused about what you meant by subjective vs. objective Dao. I don't really know much about different texts. In my humble experience, there shouldn't be any lesser Dao or greater Dao; is it not by knowing the small we can comprehend the large? By knowing the large, we can know the multi-folds of smalls. Subjectivity and Objectivity are things created by our minds, one within and one without. How could the Dao not encompass all? And without anyone to walk, what use is the path? My apologies if my comment come across as flaunting as anyway, it is not my intention. But as my background is not from that of scholarly nature, it might be hard bring me into perspectives. I would like to kindly ask for the TaoBums to help correct my understanding if it is wrong. I will try to take your comments with an open-mind.

Thank you everyone for sharing their insights here; @Mewtwo I think you would have get your answer. @Riyue Thank you for the Sealscripts; it's nice to see the becoming of a language and its symbol. I do think that we will have to bear in mind that back in that time, the words and names of things are so fixed as of today. @Marblehead I am sure that they did well, and there are so much insights and knowledges being shared. @Robmix I agree with you with Hua's translation, However i do think he tried to convey the things expressed by Lao Zi by adding that of his own to the best of his ability. @lienshan Thank you for sharing with us your understanding of chinese grammar. I do think the problem is the way, the language deride from Latin formulates its syntax; making expressing something very specific. My mother tongue is a language from East Asia, our language is not so fixed. In the end it is Translator's Daodejing we are readimg, and our understanding adding upon it. There's alway a parody of that in reading. So one only needs to drop every thing and get back to the Great Source.

@lienshan Would you kindly share with us your experience, whether there are ways in studying the ancient Chinese text as the author intend for the reader? Much would be appreciated

Mew, http://ctext.org/dao-de-jing Go there and start learning Chinese; you can ignore the English translation on that web but they have a useful Chinese language tool where you can see the meanings of each symbol as you scroll through the text; click the button in front of each line. Or you could look for Hua-Ching Ni's which in my humble experience is a nice translation, there are others out there through. I am sure many Dao bums will point you in a good situation. but I do think if you would like to get all the wonders of the text, i would go directly to the Chinese text and its wonderful symbology.

Just like what Stig and Jetsun said... however i would like to write something here: the ancient masters would smile if they were asked this question; no, you can't be normal and GET the Dao. and Yes, the Dao is with the every moment of all life. It encompass ten thousands things. How could anyone say they get it!? By acting accordingly to circumstances, one is with the great Dao; by imposing our wills, we swim against the current. Like Stigweard said: What's normal? and like Jetsun said about society. There's your normal, my normal, their normal? So many normals, so which one is normal?

Serene, don't worry about it; these are just names, names and names. How can you dig it up? or find it? You are with it everyday. let the doubt doubts, let the question questions. Like the Old Master said: The path that can be follow is not the one path, The name that can be called is not the true name.

Non, I think there may be some misunderstandings from the Buddhism concepts here. I am not saying that you are wrong; but I just want to point some out. There's a reason in which all Buddhas are human. (As I was told) It's hard to be born Human amongst the transformation (And to throw it away is being ungrateful) One need to see the 'true suffering' that arise from impermanence that all Stream Enterer sees (I don't claim I am there either) (Many Buddhist can disagree here) I don't think the true state is a void; there's the transformation (Earth, Water, Wind, Fire), one could say that it is all transformation of awareness/consciousness. Not there is no purpose but the fact that we are not aware of our own true path, and making up false purpose and are astray. We are still need to ride with the wave (Dao, Law of karma, Dependent Origination) to enlightenment. To fellow Buddhist; please correct me if you feel that my understanding is wrong in anyway. I will be happy to listen. P.S. The animals are living their purpose. Edited: Was posting in between of Gerard's Post; Wanna thanks Gerard for his post as well.

Thank you Marblehead; I agreed it is indeed hard to understand eachother where there will be ultimately some misunderstandings. @Aaron Is you idea similar to that of 'All belonging to the Tao'? (Change mode): Questions The fact that we can just enjoy the transformation? In this age way majority of people are astray from the natural way; would this be the best time to cultivate? Look toward to hear from you; XieJia

Hi Marble; I am not saying that I have disagreed or agreed with him; I am merely writing my own experience on the subject matter. Nor I want to debate anything either. I think it is the matter of Aaron sharing his experience with us. In term of martial arts; it is really a wonder to spare with these people as if they are invisible when the movement of both becomes but one. No enemy, no you.

AaronThank you for sharing the experience; sounds wonderful. Yet a flavour tasted by my tongue. I wonder what it would be like to spar with you in martial arts for if you are me then who am I hitting? I know the thing only in concepts in names and not any real understanding, or that subtle understanding have been lost to me; blinded by what is affront. The heart becomes 'confused'; and where is the truth one may one asked? It is actually right in front but it is the self that one can ever truly see. When the 'self' ceases; what do one see? Forgive my ranting and thank you again Aaron; XieJia

Depends on which dao you are referring to I tends to think of the Art of War; more like SunZi's CV for the King of Wu. And a window, for getting to know the great person.

兵 Modern/Seal script/Jinwen/Jiaguwen/Jianbo Took this from the Chinese Text Project website; I do think your proposal can is actually see that the character signifying war in the title bing 兵 (soldier) in the seal scripts comes across as two hands doing/holding something. 法 Modern/Seal Script/Jianbo Put this one down because I think it is nice aswell; the fa 法 (law, rule) or the character signifying "Art" in the title. To me; it like something with the river. But I really do lack the ancient Chinese Language history; to really make any academically-ground comment about them; just guess that the imagery of the seal script are useful, to when the language and meaning then were not too fixed. a space to be creative. edited: The alignment of the pictures; dunno why but cant get the modern script to be bigger.

Thank you Mr T for your encouragement; I will be looking to do some more. As for English translation, I do really recommend R.L. Wing; his book is relatively thin with side by side Chinese and English translations; where I feel the reader have a more flexible way to approach the text than other translation. If you want some background history I would recommend Ralph Sawyer (get the one with the red cover) he provided some nice backgrounds (The feeling is highly academic though). Thomas Cleary also have some unconventional translation with comments from generals like Cao Cao, Wang Xi and Du Mu with a small section relating Art of War to IChing (Haven't read this though but flicked through it). And there's Victor H. Mair translation which is very easy and enjoyable to read with some good background information. So depends on your taste, there are so many translations. I would highly recommend Victor H. Mair's for casual read and R.L. Wing for those who fancy abit more creativity. The blogger of the link that Mr./Ms. Odi's post also provide a very commentary on Sun Zi's work but we would need to get some translators on them since they are in Chinese. Well good luck Mr. T @Marblehead You might be interested, As I do think there's a lot of Daoist concept that Master Sun used in his work.

I'd hope that Mr. Vaj would realise something himself from this thread (not on the things that have been written but on that is not written) without having to get himself banned. Hope that he will see this as a good chance to contemplate on his own practice rather then building up more feeling that we have been bullying him. @Sunya Very nice post; Thank you @Eviander Maybe it is easier to conceptualize D.O. with a metaphor Take sound for example; for any sound to be comprehendable, there must be different sounds or the sound of silence. Take another example, objects around; the only reason we can differentiate them is such that we have empty spaces. Taking conceptualization to the extreme, imagine listening to something without any gaps or knowing silence at all; what will you hear? Or feeling something without any spaces, what will you feel? Without non-existence, can there be existence? D.O. is like the silences, the spaces, and the non-existence for phenomenal to occur. (this might be hard or easy to get your head around, and some might said it is misleading; however I do feel that this is one way that one could see it. I'd however prefer how Sunya puts it.) Similarly, without existence; can you witness the non-existence? without sound, can you know silence? Without substances, can you know space ? Hope this at least helps in a way or two, Bliss to you all, XieJia

Hi Paulno, I would like to second what Red Pheonix said here. In the end I do think that out of these many systems will bear very much similar in principles. From my experience, I would recommend finding a teacher that you are happy studying with; getting the right foundation, I feel is quite important. If you have some time on your hand, I would also suggest taking up any kind of 'soft or internal' martial arts; like Taijichuan, Baguazhang or even Akido; in my humble opinion meditation and these fits in quite well. Hard martial arts can be fine too but it's all depends on the trainer. Hope that my perspective will be helpful to you in someway Paul. Good luck man, XieJia

Dear Edward, I live in Edgware Road area; slightly central and west. In my humble opinion a simple basic overview will be quite nice; which any little book would be good. If you are interested in Buddhism and don't mind some travelling, I would really recommend travelling up to Hemel Hampstead and visit the Amaravati Buddhist Monastery which their practice comes directly from Forest monks in Thailand (Never been there myself, I'd really recommend that), and I am sure that they will be happy to help you. If you are incline towards more of qigong type of practice, you could try going to Holland Park in weekends mornings; there are always some cultivators practising there. Mostly I see TaiChi or Baguazhang classes but there are some of those occasional martial arts masters that will teach you a thing or two without a dime if you ask politely. I do feel that it is easier and more fruitful initially study under some guidance, and once you get the basics. You could start working on your own and perhaps consulting books, teachers or fellow practitioner from time to time. It is easy to fell into a delusional trap that you have obtained something when you did not; I am not saying that it is always true but it is very easy to fell into that trap. Either way, I hope my post will helpful in some ways in conjunction to what fellow tao bums have said. It is always good to see someone taking up Meditation; No matter what you choose to do; good luck and wish bliss and happiness to be on your way Edward. XieJia

Dear Edward, As far from my experience, my opinion is that the book can only get you so far as just provide background information that you can get freely if you look around. If you are just starting then I would recommend you choosing a path, a meditation and work with it diligently. You will come to understand different experiences yourself, this knowledge cannot be obtained from books. From my experience, meditative experience cannot be measured. Don't get discouraged and obsessed with progress. Wish you good luck on your journey, and hope you find what you seek. XieJia

Thank you Marblehead for clearing my curiosity, I got my questions answered. For me, Chuang Tzu seems to be a bit more like ordinary man (profound). I think there's a collected feel to Daoism; I shall try to learn more about different schools of Daoism. Maybe I will try to turn to you to correct more of my misunderstandings. Thank you again Marblehead.