XieJia

Sounds like you did alot of searching my friend. It is fortunate to see someone with such dedication on his path. One of the things I heard; "if you pursue a path, any paths to the completion... when you looked back; the paths but disappear. You will see that all the paths is one." but when there is the 'self' arises; there is deem to be clinging and delusions, from clinging and delusions, there deem to be pride and hence conflicts of views. 'This is not it!', 'This is not the reality', 'These are right!', 'Those are wrong'. In my opinion, this is what many Daoist friends is trying to help us see this clinging and the pride to this concept of 'Dependent Origination'. For those who have arrived only partially understanding of 'Dependent Origination' (Like me, I would like to think ); I came to feel that any conceptualizing it in the head/mind would be just the residuals of that partial realization. For the true 'Dependent Origination' is not a model; it is for me as a reality, the model in our heads (which is just clinging to the mental object) need to be therefore eliminate with the true experience. And in the end upon arrival, Dependent Origination and all Dharmas disappears becomes but an empty words. I apologize for persistently bringing up this theme of thinking because I do still think that it will be helpful atleast to the Buddhists. And forgive me if what I said offended anyone's belief gets on anyone's nerves in anyway. But since we are not enlightened (I don't know about others but I am not), lets get back to the pride and mud-slinging .

maybe animals and insect communicates much differently from us humans. I would like to feel that my dog understands me not from the content of the words but the ways it is said and that I would be able to do the same thing but I guess it's more one sided. Chinese is not my strong point but I would say that the Ancients can express so much in so little words; something simple yet profound, but maybe it is because languages are not so developed and put into frame backthen much more like the ways my dog understood me through the feelings and intents. The ancients expresses through the symbols of the language; and I do think that we can get much more from any Chinese text if we have access to calligraphy. I originally picked up SunZi from my parent's shelves when I was a child; not that I know anything but only knowing that 'He's a cool guy' and I wanted to be like him or cool aswell (I guessed deep down I still want some of that ). Then I would flicks through the pages reading 'Master Sun said that, Master Sun said this.' and imagining myself as a General about start a campaign. The occurrence that leads me to SunZi's was the overwhelming references in one of my favourite novel 'Sanguo Yanyi'; with ancient figure like those of CaoCao, Zhou Yu () and Zhuge Liang. I became more interested in understanding the Art of War to understand more about Luo Guanzhong's characters. Like people will say, SunZi's Art is much adaptable to many ways of dealing with conflicts whether wars, businesses, human resources, negotiations, relationship or even self exploration. After I read SunZi the last time round, I came to think that the learning that Master SunZi was trying to convey across is not only how to deal with conflicts(not in a forceful term but more of a relationship/balance of power etc) but more importantly how we could look at these conflicts itself. XieJia

Thank you cicida i dont know how to reply but i felt what you mean.

maybe give it up? edited: sorry didn't read the ending of Otis' post.

Welcome Taodancing; I found spontaneous movement can be fun and carefree, do you think the mind can be consider as a muscle? Welcome to the Tao Bums

Thank you Marblehead for sharing. This firefly have a question So is the Sage not that of Holy but an ordinary man? One that lives in accords with the transformation and embrace the way; welcoming guests with no discrimination, and over-lengthen or shorten their stay. Where those that strays superficial?

Then I would think that the current nostril sensation is a very good exercise. I would suggest keeping a small journal on what you experienced both for personal references and I wouldn't suggest reading on ahead or anticipating what you could now but pay more attention on your own experience or the moment. And keep us posted if you have any doubts or questions surrounding your experiences. Wish you good luck on your journey

Dear Chichi I might not be able to advice you on this matter but would like to give you an opinion/perspective. I do think the principles of different ways will ultimately leads to the same goal. I do think that there's a need to keep the form pure for the future generation for much lessons and hidden meanings and realization are hidden into those forms and as the respect to the founders. However there's nothing preventing you from experimenting to see what is the most natural for you. XieJia

@devoid Thank you for your post and starting this thread. ok, we will see you it goes. Lets try to build it from here then. With no disrespect to Giles' translation, I do think he did a good job. @Ben I completely agree; my speculation as for people who are educated in the Warring States of China. Sun Zi could have access to the Spring and Autumn annals, The Book of Change and possibly the Book of Odes. I am not sure about the Dao De Jing though; maybe someone with a more experience in Ancient Chinese history could clarify. @General Let make a start go from 1) to 3); I think Lionel Giles did a very good job This is Ancient Chinese; so my prior apologies for any mistake in advance. Please feel free to correct my humble attempt. Lets start with 5) to 8): 一曰道，二曰天，三曰地，四曰將，五曰法。 One is Dao(Way), Second Heaven(Tian), Third Earth (di), Fourth Commander (jiang), fifth Law (fa) comment: From this I think we can already see how us Tao Bums might interpret Sun Zi's different from Giles. 道者，令民與上同意，可與之死，可與之生，而不畏危也。 The Way; molds subjects to be in accord with the highest idea, can give that of death, can give that of life and fear not that of danger. comment: the character of the dao is used here; my other Chinese colleague said that it have been place first signifying its importances over factors. The fact that the character 生 was used again here might signify the willingness of the subject to depart from their original life (Which could be put into context of thoughts, ideologies, family, household and etc) to follow the ruler. In addition, I think that the Liege-Vassal relationship here can't be overstated. It is the same of giving up your life for a cause; I think. 天者，陰陽，寒暑，時制也。 The Heaven; yin and yang , cold and hot, of the system of time and opportunity. Comment: I will try to avoid making a too mystical interpretation here since I don't have much insight into the Book of Change. Sun Zi used 'Heaven' or 天 to signify timing and opportunities. I will let you guys ponder a little bit here. 地者，遠近，險易，廣狹，死生也。 The Earth; that of far and near, the changes of the strategic/dangerous points, the broad and narrow. That of death and alive. The yuan 遠 and jin 近 can be differently interpreted as well. Earth probably signifies the chosen battleground. In the more applied context, it would be the apparent conditions/situation which one choose to engage. 將者，智，信，仁，勇，嚴也。 The Commander; wise, to the letter(reliable), benevolent, brave, righteous. Comment: I do think that this can be applied in many other ways. 法者，曲制，官道，主用也。 The Law/Method, is flexible; wherein the host and officials employs the Dao. Comment: I took this unconventional translation from R.L. Wing 凡此五者，將莫不聞，知之者勝，不知者不勝。 In sum of these five; the commander should not be unaware of. Understanding then to victory, not-understanding then no victory Comment: IMHO, those that don't know these factors doesn't have to suffer defeat just but rather anything victory would be a blind one. Blissfully yours, XieJia P.S. Anything conception of written laws can be both beneficial or harmful. For those who are too occupied already lose the 天 timing or the present that is Edited: continued Please feel free to comment on correct any of this.

道可道，非常道。名可名，非常名。

Tremendous devoid; I found the subject interesting as well how ever; I think there are many wondrous things with the Chinese language with many hidden meanings and with translation into a very specific language like English; some hidden meanings can be lost through translations. I would propose that we or those that are interested to work from the actual available Chinese text as well the different translations . I would like to suggest this thread to be move to 'Book Club section' or perhaps under your Personal Practice section.

When the surface of the water is calm, it reflects. When there's no water, no reflection

Dear Cat Pillar; Would you kindly roughly on what you are looking forward to develop through your meditative journey? The foundation is quite important, and you wouldn't want to take the long route. It would be nice if you can tell us what you are looking for? People do meditation for different purposes; some do it for fun, some do it for relaxation, some for insight, some for spiritual/physical well-being and other weird stuffs. Different methods tends to give you slightly different experiences and have their own benefits; but I would tends to recommend what feels most natural. If you are not sure what you are looking for then I would recommend the nostril awareness that you were doing. Impartially observe the sensation. It is good base for any meditative practices . Good Luck, Blissfully yours, XieJia P.S. Dedication is a two-sided sword; it can helps you while it can also discourage you. Take care and be careful

(silent admiration) Thank you for sharing

I would like to claim that I am much of a Daoist as I am a Buddhist. The further I walked on the path, the more I realized the less Dao belongs to the Daoists; and the less Dharmas belongs to the Buddhists. Out of my arrogance, I feel that all dogmas and principles are deem to be misunderstood and misrepresent. It can come in different shapes; swords, drums, ice cream, hammer, screw drivers, candles or simply rotten frozen chickens. But all are just tools as a means to the end; and once the end is reached, the tools are becomes useless. People with different likings, backgrounds, different hands sizes would like to pick up different things through different methods where Some will fits one better than others. While some tools are given at birth, obtained, taught, or self-made . To the extent that it is useful; is where it can transform and helps that individual lives for the better, helping the person to understand themselves and other around them better. Promoting a healthy ways of life and outlooks. Out of my arrogance again; it is rather futile and useless for the people to be using these tools to smash out others' tools, or to be debating what is the right tool. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If we want to conceptualize Dependent Origination: Dependent Origination are there just to replace the two extremes of 'Determinism' and complete 'Free Will'. Where due to the pre-existing karma which would have conditioned the nature of the occurring event and the ways in which the observer views the event in certain ways. Conditioned Conditions Hope what I wrote, would help those of you who are unfamiliar with this tools more. For those who want to goes deeper; I would suggest 'Examining the cause of each event.' for it is what provides the way to liberation as described by so many ppl before. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the Big TV; I would like to have that. Imagine it with a home theatre system; should be nice. As for the answer; I tend to disagree with the notion from my own experience. I would like to encourage those that want to know to practice with diligence and obtain their own answer. Nothing else have quite the taste for something that you encounter yourself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wish you all Good luck on your journey. XieJia

thumb up! but actually the negatives may still be useful for if one can see them and use it to grab the ego by the neck. with a sword in hand, the nature eliminates itself. This is the only value I can see with any principles. Undoing the ignorance. now take a deep breath and look what we have written for this thread, what does it reflects? @jetsun Thank you

you are welcomed Mr Marblehead; i agree with you totally. But even the first chapter of the Dao De Jing or the Diamond Sutra to be recited times over times; i doubt there will be any different. i whine too much already; my teacher should be slapping my head already and let out a load belly laugh. peoples' path are different, would like to be wandering easy myself.

greetings and salutation to you too; one that loves the sunshine ane the rain. wish you a pleasant time here on The Tao Bums.

enlightment is a dried out wood log by the other shore

Buddhism in its pure form doesnt have any beliefs; all principles can be verified by one's through ones' own practice. however it is not a thing that can be given or transmit which renders this thread or such debate quite rather inefficient much the same ways in how one could explain what an ice cream is to one whoms never have even seen it or eaten it. Any rationalization about it will be just words or just cold dull dumplings. arriving at the true ice cream is indeed attainable; but those that arrived to that point would say that it is no mundane task. it would be more refreshing to see those that have eaten the ice cream, to value the ice cream and be more reserved about sharing their treasures other than advertising it. it is just an ice cream after all and if you are still on that path one day, you will even have to let that go aswell. and as the value to humanity? there can be none whatsoever. it is only useful to some people. to fellow buddhist; please dont be an axe that can make myriad things for other things for it can chop anything but its own shaft

Just the ranting: What can one ever truly see? Is that not only of that one? How does events arise, sustain and cease? What is the cause? For one to know, one must be able to see. but how does one arises, sustains and ceases? What is actually 'knowing'? What is 'insight'? Can such be given by sutras, conversations or deduction? @Vajrahridaya Admiring your dedication in the practice, In my humble opinion, one need not goes deep down into deep samadhis for the purpose; maybe for power perhaps?

There's the emotion and the needs to state of me liking that of what Lucky7Strikes said about letting go. Don't forget to let go of the let go aswell, even the awareness itself. Not that I know anything too much about it, all things led to one but if the one is being observed then is it one? @xabir2005 There's no test for the stages of enlightenment; either one is there or one is not. There's no longer doubts or delusion. Chuck all the books, texts and videos away! and get to practice. And all the questions, one will know oneself.

Don't lose track of the present though... Things comes and go. Such as the whining and the stop-whining; all is the truth. Take it at the present and since these feeling should be long time gone. Don't worry too much about them. But listen and observe them; for they are very useful if you want to change your habit. Best Wishes, XieJia

Well said Center; not that I understood anything And here's spam; and borrowing words from the old. When one takes a path to completion; that particular path disappears. Do fishes swims with knowledge of water, do bird flies with the knowledge of the air? Wish you all goodluck though and a good weekend.

Taking the path with enlightenment in mind; that notion itself led you astray. The enlightenment state is beyond that of the mind or any perception or conception. Enlightenment cannot be achieved; and the word is empty of any meaning. To take the concept of self and to pursue enlightenment is like a giant snake eating its own tails. So there's make the statement of "You are already enlightened." as the notion to put that part of us at rest. I would dare to speculate that the notion is a misinterpretation of our true nature which is that of the 'Bodhi', the knowing which is the different thing from the you or I. Enough of my babbling; practice... And you will see that the you is not so you either. Good luck and wish you success on your journey.