XieJia

Hello Joe, Thank you for sharing, I don't not know whether this goes along the same lines; when the mind is thinking, it is not flowing. I like what you said about how each of us influence our own conditions. In meditations, it is one thing. I am particularly interested in how one can use our daily life itself as a meditation. Sometimes the awareness is focused, sometimes it is unfocused. Do awareness have any conditions?

Thank you Jeff, In seeing form, the mind thinks that she is beautiful. Looking further at the mind, what is beautiful? Sometimes the mind does not know that. Sometimes the mind thinks of the eyes, the nose, the mouth and other body parts as beautiful. The thoughts that I was referring to, was the thought that derive from seeing into these individual components. There's nothing beautiful about the eyes, There's nothing beautiful about the nose, There's nothing beautiful about the mouth, There's nothing beautiful about the body parts. These are also the thoughts that I am referring to. The thoughts floats by according to the conditions much as to what Joe mentioned. So I guess we can't really claim ownership to these thoughts. But still without these thoughts occurring, I am unsure why the mind likes to create a meta-states other than the state that itself is in to induce craving.

Hi Jeff, I understand what you meant by 'using' thoughts to override thoughts. Those never do any good, one end up adding more to craving. While there are some thoughts that comes without one 'using' it. So we can't really claim ownership on it.

Thank you Jeff, Thank you Joe Interesting and acute observations; by ridding of ignorances is that -> I meant if the craving persists, they eventually drops either through the mind understanding or as you mentioned as 'they drop'. sometimes a certain thoughts completely override the craving. for example in the sexual fantasy case, one sees that the human body as undesirable such as full of old processed food being flesh, full of blood vessels, fluids, bones, muscles. Joe, there's still alternation of state of knowing and not knowing in within this skanda. apparently it have yet realize that even in not-knowing, there is knowing. one observation that I have made is that as one reduce and reduce, the more that the experience become whole. My observation is when one is in fully in the moment, it is harder to find and investigate these cravings.

A beautiful expression, Thank you Joe. You didn't answer and answer my questions in the same statement. As we continue to see the glints, it is also amazing to see how flawless the diamond can be. If the viewer is the reflections of the world and the world is the reflections of the viewer. The Tao reflects upon itself. The dust is telling itself, what is there to dirty? What is there to cling on? I'd still have the trouble and some fear of seeing where 'myself' would be? Thanks again

Well Et, I cant be certain. I dont think I mentioned you or I being right or wrong. I am saying that death and life is the same thing. And it is true that i said natural and unnatural is the same thing. And the itself that i talked about isnt me or you or any entities. It is the current state of thoughts or thinking, the current state of experiencing. That is all. I am doing my best to understand your statements. But i can never know that i understand you. For i know only myself, and through knowing myself i know others.

Sorry Marius for not getting back on you faster. I was distracted back then. True Marius, but I think spontaneous can occur from external/internal stimulus and can occur as things are happening. Are there any more things you want to learn about religion. So We can put the discussion back to topic, now it's a debate about 'Natural and Unnatural'.

Thank you; Grandmaster and Aaron Happy Belated 454th to you too. Hello ET, Hope you are well today. May I know where are you from? I might be able to follow your thoughts easier. Going back into more questions so that I understand you better. Why do you say that 'you' are 'for' something? Does that mean 'other' are 'opposing' it? You say that what I see as 'Unnatural' is 'Natural' and what I see as 'Natural' is 'Unnatural' Why is it that you need to think that I think/see in a certain way? Not that it's my problem though. As to why I have to tell you about the 'unnatural' to point out the 'natural'. The answer is that; by knowing what is unnatural, we know the natural. Same way that by knowing the color 'white', we know what's not 'white'. When the unnatural disappears even for the blink of the eye, both unnatural and natural disappears. There is no need to use those words anymore. I understands what you meant by one can be natural regardless of knowing or not knowing it. That's why I said all is natural. If we both are to look at it this way. There's nothing to be debate about natural or unnatural. I agree to your last statement, to further add a my troublesome wordplay. Itself thinks itself into being. Itself can knows nothing other than itself Nothing thinks nothing into being. Nothing can knows nothing other than nothing. Take the thinking as thinking. Knowing the thinking as the Thinking knows thinking. It knows all the creation and destruction of Thinking Knowing the knowing and knowing the knowing. May the Knowing be with you? No?! May you be with the Knowing

I am not sure whether we can't talking about the same death; it seems that your death and mine isn't the same. nevertheless, as to one opposing dying? isn't that clinging to life? Is it clinging to life that doesn't let death dies properly. true, the Tao nurtures all ten thousands things. but why would it expand when it already covers all things. why would it live if it was never born. suffering also comes from wanting death to be life. wanting to live over dead. whereas living is actually dying, dying is actually living. what things when born doesn't dies? life is what conditioned death. we are living every single moment but in that moment we are also dying. I can't tell you what natural without telling you the unnatural. Without knowing own nature, I am unnatural. Knowing own nature, all is natural. As to my statement to you, to what is 'unnatural' is simply i also want to point out. There's nothing in the universe which could be unnatural other than 'I'.

Interesting statements you have there; just to further the questions... Living is natural, then why is death unnatural? Expansion is natural, then why is contraction unnatural? In Ten-thousands things, What lives but don't die? What expands but don't contract? If doing good is what is natural then why is it not normally learned? Tell me what's unnatural!

the conversation goes too fast; what is it about the poor cat's and dog's mothers again? how about their fathers? you know they can't really come to this world without the two. for the point of argument... what is natural? are there really unnatural ones? if so, what's unnatural?

excuse me; English is not my first language here but what's actually a dogma?

A thoughts experiments: How do one think the two differs? And what similarities do they have? "Science" and "Religion"

I will go abit from topic into numbers aswell. just for fun i would like to suggest the notion that the possibilities remains and that it didn't really become 100% or 0%. going back to topic. The number three or trinity comes up in many religion or spiritual concepts. Like Buddhism -> Buddha, Dharma, Sangha and Suffering, Impermanence, Anatta Hinduism -> Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and their Shakti's counterparts. Christainity -> Father, Son and Holy Spirit Yijing -> Heaven, Earth and Man Dao's three treasures -> Compassion, Frugality and Humility Daoism Alchemy -> Jing, Qi and Shen or Essence, Vigor and Spirit and many more...

The festival will be during october 14th to the october 23rd, but don't worry. You shouldn't have problem in towns area, in some of the retreats or temple; things could be different. If you can cook, then there shouldn't be any problem as well. There are some retreats that grows their own organic vegetables <- these are very nice. Are you observing 'vegan' or 'vegetarianism'? Our tap water are not good for drinking so I would recommend bottled water or boiled water only. When you mentioned "random ingredients" -> m.s.g. comes to mind (might be hard to avoid but possible) Oh, and "medium" spicy can varies from place to place; I don't have much problem eating spicy food in any parts of Thailand but except the South (which I live in ); So normally I will have to ask them for "Bangkok spicy please", it seems to be because of the kind of chillies and peppers they are using. Some useful phrase just for fun ฉัน/กิน/อาหาร/เจ <- (chan/kin/aahaan/jay) meaning "I eat vegan food" ฉัน/กิน/อาหาร/มังสะ or มังสวิรัติ <- (chan/kin/aahaan/mangsa or mangsawirat) meaning "I eat vegetarian food" Hope you have a nice enjoyable trip, P.S. Like everywhere in the world, we Thais are generally nice and chilled people, however there still are some of us who likes to make quick bucks from foreigners. Hope you don't meet any of those but to be on the safe side, travel smart and be street smart. Take care

Fizix, lets make it a bit more constructive than that; shall we? Religion is quite a delicate subject to discuss and debate. maybe you should explain more about what you thinks are the barriers? and tell us what is the true absolute spiritual unity-immersion you are talking about and why should one strive for that. Hello Moon, could you please share? tell us how you found the answer in Daoism.

lol meaningless is sometimes powerful

now like marblehead kindly pointed, what you do with the Truth now depends on you. Notice if you have yet to measures it, rationalize it, put words on it. It is not yet a subjective truth. Nor is it objective. Once you put them into words, those words is in a way representations. Notice when you thinks, how those representations are create and how you are segmenting the truth down and separating them into these representations. Religion is still what comes later... It comes to the question then so... in regards to what should one be doing? Sit on it, walk on it, sleep on it. And answer this question what should you be doing?

hello marius, like you said, instead of trying to puts truth into frameworks. don't worry about the value of pi don't worry about religion don't worry about truth so lets forgets them for a moment. you can come back to them later, they will be there when you come back and pick them up now take a walk take a walk in the park, by the river, around the streets. to anywhere; the place you like where you feel most relaxed. and stop and sit yourself down, or even lay down. Look around, at the people, the grass, the tree, the fluffy clouds. Listens to laughters, clock tickings, children playing, people talking, listen to the wind. play attentions to the fragrances you smells with the nose, to the flavors in your mouth. watch your feelings as you experiences these things, watch your thoughts as you experiences these things. just feel now, and see your senses working collectively together and independently. relax into your being, relax into the moment. now that's the truth; right there in front of you. religion is what comes later.

Aaron I understand your point; and I am trying to bring it back to the topic of "Being done with knowledge". and I have to agree that in the world today, we humans mixed up much of our needs with our wants. And collectively we don't really see the downside of having those wants and full-filling those wants. Do tell me if I miss the point. But I think you summarized the thread quite nicely there. Like the child getting weened at about its mother's milk, the worldly knowledge are passed onto us since birth. We have been told 'to do this', 'not to do this', 'to do things this way' or 'not to do it that way', as the being of the child learnt into its memories through experiences. "This is how I should do it", "This is what I think", "I should want this", "This is what I should do to get what I want". Those things becomes personalities and what we identify as ourselves. We grows up, carrying it all in this very moment. Forgetting that all of it is quite just temporary. At the start of this thread, you pointed out that it is important to realize the our source and where it all comes from. A kind practitioner whom I respect, I referred to him as Uncle once told me. "Son, if you are that of the world; seeking something that of not this world will only bring you suffering; like you, yourself are carrying the whole world. Know how to use the worldly knowledge, we still got to live and get along with others; after all, fabrications and liberations are just side by side." Like a light of a candle, may mindfulness shrines. Wish you all a good sunday.

True indeed, but yet the Dao works and manifest itself in amazing ways. Yet I did managed to take a sip of your amazing homebrew recipe.

Aaron, don't worry. It is not my intention to serve you tea or any drink. I just want to share the art of making tea with the people who likes to serve tea; that's all. I understand your point about water as to what the body actually needs. May I ask you a question though Aaron? Would the case be the same as milk? Water and milk, would it be the same as water and tea? I am quite curious on your perspectives here. My point is, if you have water; drink water. if you have tea; drink tea. if you have coffee; drink coffee. cause if you are thirsty have only tea or coffee but not water, seeking water might make you more thirsty.

is the water boiling? different kind of teas are best prepared with water at different temperature. Green tea prefer brewing at lower temperatures, high temperature will cause them to be bitter. Such are also Oonlongs, while Black tea prefers higher temperature. Also each teapots and cups have different thermal properties. So one will have to develop own experiences with a certain vessels or puts alot of 'love' into it. My 92 years old grandpa loves brewing his own tea, whether for his grand children, guests, or any visitors. Tea have many good health benefits such as relaxing or energizing properties. You can enjoy tea alone or in company. Different people prefers their tea home-brewed or vendor-brew. There are also those Iced Lemon Tea and bottled ice tea at the convenient stores, they are good aswell. I am sure that similar things goes for coffee. I think if one is thirsty, it is ok to grab what's in front of you. Whether water, tea, coffee of juices.

Jones, if you are coming quite soon; You might be in time for our vegan festival where there will be also of tasty vegetable dishes around. If you are not good at eating spicy stuff, there are still many mild dishes that you can enjoy and if you ask the people making/preparing food for you for the non-spicy variants; I am sure they will happily oblige.