Procurator

well, i happen to know that, but thanks:). One of the keys to reading transcendental texts is to recognize when a term is used literally and when figuratively. here is an example of a diameter in an ancient text Liu either was naive in reading 方圓 figuratively when it is followed by a measure of distance in CTQ as in example above; or, was bending CTQ to suit his preconceived assumptions. Judging by his other comments i believe it was the former exacerbated by the latter.

aha...so now besides being a text on WD originally, CTQ is ALSO a text on "non-doing". Interesting. could you please list those sections besides 6 and 7? -- so to summarise: a) there is a huge literature on WD so we know that WD exsisted there is a huge literature on ND so ditto. c) based on just 2 enigmatic texts we posit that there was another form of personal(?) practice called "non-doing". hmm....

it is possible because what i bolded out above is an assumption both simplistic and artificial. its a western premise based on collective circular thinking and myths about "philosophical taoism" dating back from 17th century. but in fact, the only true virtue is DE, non-doing is just a resulting application of it. If u just dont act without possessing De which is a magical all-pervading power of a ruler, what u will get? nothing. lets reread the original when 上德不德，the ruler's De is not real De ..... then 上德無為而無以為；rulers De does not act and nothing is acted on by it....then instead of De - humanness, instead of that - duty etc. you agree that the middle section is describing the loss of Dao, but don't make the next logical step- recognize that the middle sentence is conclusion based on the first one. Too many assumptions are at risk!)

Of course! Thanks for the explanation, that is why i will not belabor the points i make, i am here to enjoy the discussion not to bore the heck out of ppl:lol: so coming back to ND/WD dichotomy for a moment: in the west, the initial perception of western alchemy by the outsiders was that it is an art of making gold out of base metals. Then, in mid-20th Carl Gustav Jung plagiarizing and building on the insights made by his precursors in the mid-19th century demonstrated that the early fundamental texts of the western alchemy were in fact referring to internal alchemy and NOT to chemical one, and reading them as chemical is erroneous. exactly same misconception still prevails in sinology in regard to CTQ . i was intrigued by a section on spatula let me post a translation in a little while.

thanks for giving us a glimpse of your understanding. as to Liu, it just shows that he misread the text rather severely, there is no "square" there 方圆 just means a "diameter" e.g. 4.这个湖方圆一里,宽半里 http://www.chinese-tools.com/tools/chinese-dictionary.html

dear allan, reading shang de and xia de in "Can Tong" as superior and inferior is erroneous:)).just thought to let you know.

see? u list them in random order, but these are not mental constructs that can just up and return. the text lists them in consecutively decreasing order since these are objects and posses inertia so they have to be cycled back thru orderly stages. besides there is no 1 listed, and 6 is not 1:)).

judging by yr avatar u already one and just messing with our heads here.

Thanks Fabrizio, i would be gladly convinced if statements is supported with reasoning. of course i believe you, but e.g, above you say "alchemy" is inferior way but omit saying why, and what is the superior one? i will take your precious directive to heart, apply utmost care and post my reading of ss. 6, 7. tossing a brick in hopes to get hit by a jade in return.

one of their main liturgies is re-enactment of a ND process, no?

the s. 21 is structurally divided in 2 parts first one about the start of mundane life which end in "grave hut". things are difficult only if you make them be:) as i noted above, if it was WD there would be no need for theory of human origin. it certainly is that is why it ends with "lead". the whole text is originally ND, later it was mistaken for WD. same thing has happened in the western alchemy. words in old text are chosen with precision, - odd numbers are recycled to turn them into even numbers, 9 into 7 , 7 into 8, 8 is even so it is here to stay but still gets recycled into 6. i chosen "reside" for a little pun: 8's "resi-due" is 6.

uh..umm..pardon my being direct and all, but what was it about then, exactly ? sorry

rough and tumble answer would be yes. please allow me to muse aloud. in its oversimplified, almost simulacrum view, WD has nothing to do with internal workings or insides of the human body and everything to do with outside world. Ingredients costly and rare, the power of gods, secret transmission, utensils - all comes from outside. all is highly technical and technological. The resulting elixir "just works", and that's it. Even if there is a need for a theory ( but strictly speaking there is none) the theory does not need to encompass the human body, which is just a lump of mundane matter for projection. obviously the section 21 does not only say that there is 2 qi. It says much more than that, very much more. 养性立命章第二十 Nuriting nature establishing destiny. 20. 将欲养性，延命却期。审思后末，当虑其先。 If you want to nourish nature - prolong destiny, push back due date. To comprehend the latter - must analyse its former. 人所秉躯，体本一无。元精云布，因炁托初。 Man’s entire body - takes root in one nothingness. Primary essence separates - cases qi to begin. 阴阳为度，魂魄所居。阳神日魂，阴神月魄。 Yin-yang make residence - hun-po it inhabit. Yang-spirit sun hun- yin-spirit moon po. 魂之与魄，互为室宅。性主处内，立置鄞鄂。 Hun feeds po - in each other mutually reside. Destiny master of the inner - regulates within its boundaries. 情主营外，筑垣城郭。城郭完全，人物乃安。 Nature master of the outer - builds up the city walls. City walls are complete - man is safe. 爰斯之时，情和乾坤。乾动而直，炁布精流；坤静而翕，为道舍庐。 Then comes time - the nature mixes up qian and kun. Qian moves and expands, qi separates, essence leaks, kun quiets down and folds - this is the path to the grave hut. 刚施而退，柔化以滋。九还七返，八归六居。 Hardness expands and regresses - softness proliferates. 9 returns 7 turns back - 8 resides 6 abides. 男白女赤，金火相拘。则水定火，五行之初。 Man white wife red - metall and fire mutually arrest. Then water stabilizes fire - it is 5 elements’ beginning. 上善若水，清而无瑕。道之形象，真一难图。 The highest management is that of water -calm, flawless. (But if) use images and shapes - that is a truly hard map. 变而分布，各自独居。类如鸡子，白黑相符，纵广一寸，以为始初。 (they) shift and spread - each one residing in its place. Similar to chicken egg, white and yolk complete each other, in a place one cun across, that is the beginning. 四肢五脏，筋骨乃俱。弥历十月，脱出其胞。骨弱可卷，肉滑若铅。 4 extremities 5 organs - muscles bones all in it. Passes 10 months - sheds out of its placenta. Bones soft fit to roll up- flesh gleaming as lead.

oh it is neidan, 二炁感化章第二十一 Two qi persuaded. 21. 阳燧以取火，非日不生光。 Concave mirror to get fire - without Sun the light would not be born. 方诸非星月，安能得水浆？ Dew collector without stars and moon - how could water condense? 二炁玄且远，感化尚相通，何况近存身？ These two qi that are far and far, if can be persuaded to mutually permeate, - are not even more so those contained in the human body? 切在于心胸。阴阳配日月，水火为效徵。 Close (they are) in heart and chest. Yin-yang pair as Sun and Moon - water and fire will similarly collect.

I just happen to be midway thru Clarke Hudson's thesis on him. thanks for clarifications. since you mentioned Wei Boyan previously can you please kindly point to a reliable, received copy of Can Tong on the net? i have not studied it before and would like to test it on ND/WD affiliation. thanks.

Fabrizio thanks for a lucid historical presentation, i disagree with it on paradigmal grounds, and so would native neidan schools who trace their lineage back to Lao-zi. I understand that you stand by your thouroughly researched POV , which i respect. i am not sure whether you are interested in a protracted technical discussion so i will just note a couple of technical points below this POV is specifically warned against as a recipe for "false elixir". The true components come from elswhere, not from postcelestial realm. that is surprising since prolonged stages of 10 months, 3 years and "9 years of facing the wall" are well known.

that is all eminently correct but the questions remain. if it can be read as a ND text how we do know that it was not a ND text originally? the fact that its possibly true ND meaning surfaced belatedly is not an argument to the contrary. i know:)) i borrowed that term so we speak in the same terms. i also subscribe to that view i.e no satisfactory definition of daosism or ND exists. Your definition of ND is terminology based - i.e if some process and final product is termed "elixir" and stages of its development are described via metallurgy metaphors and I-jing then its ND. Its a perfectly valid definition. For academical purposes. however if the very same process and the very same product is described in different terms - is it ND or no? the scholars say no since their scholarship is semantics-based. the practitioners say yes, for the obvious reason that its the same product and the same process.

lumping her together with non-specialists is unreasonable. she definitely is an expert and as such not prone to naive mistakes as this.

this your bibliography is a gem. thank you very much. truer words have never been spoken. this is a bit of a moot point, as you yourself noted "Can Tong" could be a neidan text. more over, "neidan" as is indeed "daoism" are still floating signifiers. definitely

the practical aspect is not shared for 2 reasons. firstly it would be useless to you personally - shared on a public forum it will become just more cheap talk , another old opinion. Since you have no means to verify its validity you will just file it away as yet another opinion without putting into practice and will keep searchin for "real stuff". the second reason, far more important, is that true words are very powerful, if parroted by the false teachers they will easily led students astray, students will waste money time and health, while the true teaching will become indistinguishable among imitations. those who have the true knowledge feel this prohibition physically, a person literally becomes tongue-tied if attempts to divulge. if he still goes ahead there will be..issues. so you can be certain that any practical details divulged on public western forum, be it internet, dvd, book, public seminar...are worthless.

oh thank you right back, my pleasure. all in all this is by far the most amusing chpt in entire DDJ, both by original ideas and by subsequent miscomprehension starting from the first line that was originally 28 老子乙道... : 知其雄，守其雌，為天下鷄。為天下鷄， "manage the cock keep the hen, then the entire country will be chickens, so De does not depart" uh-ah..wait ..WHAAA? chickens?!!! and yet it IS the correct version. go figure.

true because it is not a compound and does not have to be. 散 here means scattered, unassociated, unemployed and is predominantly applied to people in pre-Han usage lets first look at 樸. from here http://ctext.org/excavated-texts?searchu=%E6%A8%B8 16 老子甲: 我欲不欲而民自樸。 "when i desire to be without desires then the people are becoming simple on their own" its obvious that 樸 is a characteristic of the people/persons. so when those simple and unassociated persons are made tools of the state, comprised into a Grand Government, then such a state can not be hurt. now lets look at usage of 器 tools in DDJ, an explicit example is 31 老子乙道... :夫兵者，不祥之器也，....。故兵者非君子之器；兵者不祥□器也 者 is unmistakable signifier of persons. so the passage says: warrior persons are not luck-bringing tools/officials. ....That is why warriors are not fit to be officials for the rulers; warriors are not lucky officials.