Conwaypk

Hmh, I should probably read him then haha. Interesting.

I like your thoughts ShenLung. I think for many people that is really good advice, another option for a different approach, a reminder to not be frustrated. For me, reading the TTC was not a goal from beginning to end. I had read the first chapter, and from there, I was enlightened. I wanted to read the rest of the TTC because chapter 1 woke me up. Perhaps one chapter of the TTC is alone enough the entirety of the TTC, personally (subjectively). For me, I feel this is the case. I have read the TTC, multiple times. But from chapter one alone, that was all I needed. I'm not saying I understood everything, absolutely not. What I am trying to say is perhaps a piece of the TTC can be the entire TTC, whatever works for whatever individual - whatever it is they need to hear. So for me, a specific part of the larger whole, was for me, as the entire whole.

Very interesting. I am 21 now but back a few years when I was around 18, I had read the TTC a few times and had actually moved away from it because I had realized that it was putting anarchy into my head. As an 18 year old in a western society bombarded with hormones and nagging future questions (let alone stress and peer pressure), anarchy was an added word I just didn't want to deal with. I thought I was alone. Guess I wasn't. I had moved away from Taoism because I was afraid of what I was thinking I was being taught by it: anarchy. Though the original post and comments have taught me much, I am still pretty "afraid" of that word and really don't support it or carry any stock in it and don't support such a system. But now thanks to this I am very much less afraid of it and am becoming more knowledgeable of anarchism in Taoism.

[it's been quite a while since I've posted, or even been to the site for that matter But I am back, and very glad to be back] I wanted to comment on something I read here: I don't think Lau Tzu is necessarily saying that God does not exist, or that, even further, God did not cause all things to come into existence. Again, I come from a very unique point of view (justified in saying that by previous conversations in this very thread) in that I am a Christian-Tao, that is, I believe in God, Jesus as his Son, and The Holy Spirit as God's Will aka...the Dao. So, if the big bang happened (I am not against it at all) then Tao (as a single molecule of matter?) may have exploded into all things we have. How? Well like you say it is anyone's guess, however I believe that no matter what actually happened (Big Bang or not), God's Will, the active force, Holy Spirit, caused it to happen and this is the natural way and progression (Dao). As the "Hua Hu Ching" states in lesson 8: "Different expressions are merely the results of different times and places." This is how I justify the name or title Holy Spirit as God's active will...the Tao expressed itself necessarily as how the people of that geography, time, and place would openly accept it as. This can be expressed further in the reasoning behind the many gods we have today in the worlds cultures. How does someoe like me justify the Taoist philosophy while holding onto God? Simply: that the Tao has allowed itself to present a certain path to a cetain people at a certain time (some call God Christ, others Buddha, others have Shintoism, etc.) In summation: all is a manifestation of the Tao, the natural way, God's desire. Hope I didn't get too deep and lose anyone. It wasn't really supposed to be such a complicated post

Hey it's been a while since I've posted, but I'm back. Verse 5. Translation from Jonathan Star. "Heaven and Earth have no preference A man may choose one over another but to Heaven and Earth all are the same The high, the low, the great, the small - all are given light, all get a place to rest The Sage is like Heaven and Earth To him none are especially dear nor is there anyone he disfavors He gives and gives without condition offering his treasure to everyone The universe is like a bellows It stays empty yet is never exhausted It gives out yet always brings forth more Man is not like this When he blows out air like a bellows he becomes exhausted Man was not made to blow out air He was made to sit quietly and find the truth within" I've read the first 3 pages of posts and I want to ask about Karma. It is to my understanding that I have been greatly misunderstanding the concept of karma. I saw the Yin-Yang as the balance betwwen good and evil. I thought taoism was ALL about karma. If you do good, good things will happen. But me being the Christian I am, I have recently learned and started to believe that because I am God's creation, He can do whatever he wants to me! About the verse. It means to me that, though man may have preference of things over other things, Heaven and Earth do not. Man does not know the truth of matters, cannot see the consequences of the choices before the choices are made. Nature, Heaven, and Earth, being not-human and therefore non-preferential, not necessarily don't >care<, but because they're emotionally detached, have no preference. God knows the intention of man, where man does not know the intention of another man. This means to not judge. This means to not have preference. To give and give without conditiong (here comes a karma statement) and because I give out of the purity of my heart and not SEEKING reward, I am rewarded. It is very easy for me to just give and help others, and I never think of reward! My life is easy. I see the direct connection right there. The ending of this verse is totally false. Man was not made to sit quietly. We were made to be active. Enlightenment comes through action (for me) not inaction. God created life to live, to experience, adventure, and explore. Not to not stray from what you know, not to stay within your comfortable boundaries. But to progress and push farther to become the strongest, most complete person you can. Why? Because life is forever, and I plan on living after death (Christian). I can see the ending here trying to relate humans to the bellows in a sense, and that's fine. But we were not meant to stay still. The ONLY problem here is that there seems to be 1 all-encompassing RULE for everyone. No such thing - that's why I put 'to me' in parantheses. Because for someone else sitting still may be just what they need. I should help a man in a business suit just as much as I should help a man with no home. And I should think no better or different of the two. I do just that - don't think differently of them. And I do good to everyone as a thanks to God for the many blessings in my life which He has given me. I love combining Taoism and Christianity - it just seems to fit so well.

That's really all I can say haha, I really like what you said. So thinking about this a little bit, are you saying that Tao IS God (Christian), so Tao is the predominant, meaning, without God, there would still be Tao? Or do you just simply mean that God IS the Way (Tao). (Yes, this is all only for my perspective, with Christianity).

Hmmm. Your all speaking of Tao as a noun. A noun that acts, or atleast, can be used. I don't see it like this. Verse 4: Tao Te Ching by: Jonathan Star "Tao is empty yet it fills every vessel with endless supply Tao is hidden yet it shines in every corner of the universe With it, the sharp edges become smooth the twisted knots loosen the sun is softened by a cloud the dust settles into place So deep, so pure, so still It has been this way forever You may ask, "Whose child is it?" - but I cannot say This child was here before the Great Ancestor" I see this as a state of mind. WE are the ones that, following the way of the Tao, can reduce our own stress, WE are the ones that loosen our own tangled minds. This verse, as a philosophy to me, speaks more of accepting Tao, or acting with the mindful awareness of accepting Tao in one's life. How to live a good life, a fun life, without stress or ignorance or negative energy. The emtpy, never-ending usefulness I see not as a mindset, but as (and here I am again the Christian) God's ultimate power. Tao was not here before God, but Tao (as a philosophy) was here out of the creation of God. Is this a direct contradiction to this verse?

Agreed.

Haha of course, sir (or ma'am?). I didn't expect you to go and read everything, just backing up my claim. By definitive edition I think it means the translation, not the essence. It has every character and what it could possibly mean

Hmm..are you talking about in general? I have made no such claim, and won't, because I don't think there is a definitive answwer for anything, ever. If you would like, check this site out: http://www.parkourgenerations.com and read up on the articles about what parkour vision is. It's not just me who says this changes a person's literal vision.

1. Pointing out that I had to read through all those unrelated-or-not posts, which takes a lot of time 2. "Tao Te Ching, The Definitive Definition" by Jonathon Star (sorry about not quoting it) 3. I'm not seeing where in-action as action over non-action as action is BETTER or more beneficial to the individual, especially specifically to me. 4. I feel like I can agree with that. being stuck in dogma. But dogma taken from any and all labels when and where necessary, which is whati have learned thus far from Taoism. Use what works, throw away what doesn't.

OKAY! SO... Now that I read through all the related and/or non-related posts For the future, why not just PM each other about such MOD issues/ideas? I do not agree with that translation at all. I feel this says to accept laziness, to be happy with one's present condition, even when something beneficial lays right in front of you. Everything takes time, so improve, but do not think you must improve NOW (or even CAN improve NOW). Without goals and desires we can never progress, and progression is what allows humans to advance individually and societally. Progress is. I offer the translation I am using, as usual, with my thoughts and feelings because, TianShi, the TTC affects my life personally, no matter whom or what it was originally written for. Putting a value on status will cause people to compete Hoarding treasure will turn them into thieves Showing off possessions will disturb their daily lives Thus the Sage rules by stilling minds and opening hearts by filling bellies and strengthening bones He shows people how to be simple and live without desires To be content and not look for other ways With the people so pure Who could trick them? What clever ideas could lead them astray? When action is pure and selfless everything settles into its own perfect place Desires are to be avoided, but physical materialism, not spiritual endeavors. I must strive for a closer relationship with God, I desire this, to show my thanks and love for the life God has allowed me to have. When we act out of selfish reasons, our reward will not be as it should. When I act for selfish reasons, bad things happens. When I act to truly help another, I see around me many signs telling me that because of my good works, good works will happen to me. This verse tells me to care about the basic and bare necessitites of life: food, clothing, shelter, water. But also, to have interests and hobbies, but not TOO many. To not overload myself with the outside world, but to have a taste of it so that I may experience life in a content manner. But I am only content through the fulfillment of my desires, my specific goals, which take time, and which should not be overcrowded but reasoned with and understood that I am Human, and being Human is my greatest strength. Do not show off. But also, remember, it is only showing off if YOU cannot do it. The point is, act out of necessity, not out of negative energy. What is the purpose of having strong bones if your always full with food, unable to move? Again, moderation. Eat, but only out of necessity. Work, and train, and develop, but only out of necessity (even if that necessity is joy...would you rather be happy or sad?) So do what makes you happy, but in moderation. When one is content, they will easily be able to see traps being laid for them. Scams and false hopes will easily be avoided because the person already has what he/she is looking for, and the only way to fulfill what we are looking for is by action..by going out and doing it...within reason and moderation. Enlightenment comes not from stilling the mind or the sitting without moving, but from action. Action leads to enlightenment, not inaction. I know, I'm a freerunner, and I claim enlightenment through the vision Freerunning affords one's self. If you are not a freerunner, then you lack this vision. But there is no ONE way, so perhaps you too are enlightened. Freerunning is just another path: that of necessary action, whether out of joy or expression or to help another, we as freerunners do not show off and we do not pride ourselves, we humble ourselves. This verse is excellent in saying: Do what you need to do to be happy, and to stay happy, in moderation, and to not flaunt your happiness to another, but help them to achieve their happiness as well.

I'm very sleepy after a good day's work...or maybe I should just say after working so much in this day that I'm not going to quote the various comments, just refer to them. Well, I can agree with the whole "I" am here, so I must be important. I think it will be Manitou to comment on my next comment "I" am here because God (biblical Christian) willed it. Though, is "preference" really suggested by that statement? The verses of the DDC that were posted explaining that the Sage, as Heaven and Earth, have no preference is something I think that many people would do well to learn from and exemplify in their daily lives (Yes, I am of course included in that). However, if there is a God, and this God will's my existence, if at any time this God willed me to not be in existence it would be so just like that! (snaps fingers) My point is that, I don't see how anything IN creation can be prefered over something else, because that something else IS IN creation as well. This means there is no room for preference, if you say, as I do, that all comes from God, and His will, the power of Tao. But I do not see God as a pusher of conditions from the side lines! I very much believe that I am a piece of Him, or that when I die my sould shall return to His presence and I may live forever. I do feel that God is not necessarily me, or that I have the powers of God, but that the Love of God, out of being created by Him, is in me. And finally, I believe that Humans were created by God. How, though, is the real question. Did God blow into the nostrils of clay, forming Adam, or did the elemnts and the matter rise up to create an animal that eventually evolved into the Human? Either way, all comes from God, so even evolution (remember, this is all IMO) means that God created us. Peace for all. (Though by saying peace for all, does that mean Unrest now exists in our minds? )

I couldn't agree more, manitou. I HAVE questioned my religious upbringing's beliefs. I DO question everything I read, from school work to the Bible to the TTC...to my self. I am a Freerunner, it is in my nature with an affinity for disobedience to seek truth, or reason, and yes, I have found my answers and yes, claim to understand and know my purpose in life. I'm not sure how your post is relating to what I asked.. We are the people creating the outside conditions. But people came from somewhere, and my belief about where we came from is irrelevant to this discussion. It does however mean that, to me, God has allowed humans to come about (whether created, evolved, both, or some other way) for a purpose, otherwise we would not be here. For everything has a purpose, even if purpose-less. Like I said, this purpose, God's will, I call Tao. daweiYour #2 statement brings to mind this little story (I am completely butchering this): A man once got a horse, and they said this was good. Then he fell off the horse and broke his leg, and they said this was bad. A war arose in the country and when they came looking for people to serve, this man had a broken leg, so he could not serve and his life was still his. This, we can see, is good. Taking out the good and bad, we see that there is no good and bad, only doing. I think that IS much harder to apply to things such as 9/11 and the earthquake in Japan. I mean, if someone off the street came and asked you if 9/11 was bad, would you be able to look them in the face and say "no"? I DO think there is only doing, I am just saying it would be difficult to deny good and bad to a large mass of people about something so catastrophic.

Whoa. That's quite interesting and I really like the way that sounds too, I actually grasped what you were saying quite quickly and easily. I feel like I could adopt this approach very easily: it makes sense to my understanding and feelings and how I believe. I really can't reword what you have said, so I would just simply say that I agree with that. There is no choice, because our actions are dictated by the external factors and whatever needs to be done will be. 2 things. 1 - I feel that these external factors are there for a reason, a purpose, as well. Therefore, all the conditions that affect our choice are there for a reason, leading the choice of action to occur for a reason. The cause/effect idea of free will really flows well, I am merely stating that it all happens FOR a reason, and this reason is that of God's will (which Tao is the name I have given to God's will). Any comments on the last sentence? 2. Is it possible to go against the external conditions? Is it only the Sage that would not go against the external conditions?