Conwaypk

Hmh, I should probably read him then haha. Interesting.

I like your thoughts ShenLung. I think for many people that is really good advice, another option for a different approach, a reminder to not be frustrated. For me, reading the TTC was not a goal from beginning to end. I had read the first chapter, and from there, I was enlightened. I wanted to read the rest of the TTC because chapter 1 woke me up. Perhaps one chapter of the TTC is alone enough the entirety of the TTC, personally (subjectively). For me, I feel this is the case. I have read the TTC, multiple times. But from chapter one alone, that was all I needed. I'm not saying I understood everything, absolutely not. What I am trying to say is perhaps a piece of the TTC can be the entire TTC, whatever works for whatever individual - whatever it is they need to hear. So for me, a specific part of the larger whole, was for me, as the entire whole.

Very interesting. I am 21 now but back a few years when I was around 18, I had read the TTC a few times and had actually moved away from it because I had realized that it was putting anarchy into my head. As an 18 year old in a western society bombarded with hormones and nagging future questions (let alone stress and peer pressure), anarchy was an added word I just didn't want to deal with. I thought I was alone. Guess I wasn't. I had moved away from Taoism because I was afraid of what I was thinking I was being taught by it: anarchy. Though the original post and comments have taught me much, I am still pretty "afraid" of that word and really don't support it or carry any stock in it and don't support such a system. But now thanks to this I am very much less afraid of it and am becoming more knowledgeable of anarchism in Taoism.

[it's been quite a while since I've posted, or even been to the site for that matter But I am back, and very glad to be back] I wanted to comment on something I read here: I don't think Lau Tzu is necessarily saying that God does not exist, or that, even further, God did not cause all things to come into existence. Again, I come from a very unique point of view (justified in saying that by previous conversations in this very thread) in that I am a Christian-Tao, that is, I believe in God, Jesus as his Son, and The Holy Spirit as God's Will aka...the Dao. So, if the big bang happened (I am not against it at all) then Tao (as a single molecule of matter?) may have exploded into all things we have. How? Well like you say it is anyone's guess, however I believe that no matter what actually happened (Big Bang or not), God's Will, the active force, Holy Spirit, caused it to happen and this is the natural way and progression (Dao). As the "Hua Hu Ching" states in lesson 8: "Different expressions are merely the results of different times and places." This is how I justify the name or title Holy Spirit as God's active will...the Tao expressed itself necessarily as how the people of that geography, time, and place would openly accept it as. This can be expressed further in the reasoning behind the many gods we have today in the worlds cultures. How does someoe like me justify the Taoist philosophy while holding onto God? Simply: that the Tao has allowed itself to present a certain path to a cetain people at a certain time (some call God Christ, others Buddha, others have Shintoism, etc.) In summation: all is a manifestation of the Tao, the natural way, God's desire. Hope I didn't get too deep and lose anyone. It wasn't really supposed to be such a complicated post

Hey it's been a while since I've posted, but I'm back. Verse 5. Translation from Jonathan Star. "Heaven and Earth have no preference A man may choose one over another but to Heaven and Earth all are the same The high, the low, the great, the small - all are given light, all get a place to rest The Sage is like Heaven and Earth To him none are especially dear nor is there anyone he disfavors He gives and gives without condition offering his treasure to everyone The universe is like a bellows It stays empty yet is never exhausted It gives out yet always brings forth more Man is not like this When he blows out air like a bellows he becomes exhausted Man was not made to blow out air He was made to sit quietly and find the truth within" I've read the first 3 pages of posts and I want to ask about Karma. It is to my understanding that I have been greatly misunderstanding the concept of karma. I saw the Yin-Yang as the balance betwwen good and evil. I thought taoism was ALL about karma. If you do good, good things will happen. But me being the Christian I am, I have recently learned and started to believe that because I am God's creation, He can do whatever he wants to me! About the verse. It means to me that, though man may have preference of things over other things, Heaven and Earth do not. Man does not know the truth of matters, cannot see the consequences of the choices before the choices are made. Nature, Heaven, and Earth, being not-human and therefore non-preferential, not necessarily don't >care<, but because they're emotionally detached, have no preference. God knows the intention of man, where man does not know the intention of another man. This means to not judge. This means to not have preference. To give and give without conditiong (here comes a karma statement) and because I give out of the purity of my heart and not SEEKING reward, I am rewarded. It is very easy for me to just give and help others, and I never think of reward! My life is easy. I see the direct connection right there. The ending of this verse is totally false. Man was not made to sit quietly. We were made to be active. Enlightenment comes through action (for me) not inaction. God created life to live, to experience, adventure, and explore. Not to not stray from what you know, not to stay within your comfortable boundaries. But to progress and push farther to become the strongest, most complete person you can. Why? Because life is forever, and I plan on living after death (Christian). I can see the ending here trying to relate humans to the bellows in a sense, and that's fine. But we were not meant to stay still. The ONLY problem here is that there seems to be 1 all-encompassing RULE for everyone. No such thing - that's why I put 'to me' in parantheses. Because for someone else sitting still may be just what they need. I should help a man in a business suit just as much as I should help a man with no home. And I should think no better or different of the two. I do just that - don't think differently of them. And I do good to everyone as a thanks to God for the many blessings in my life which He has given me. I love combining Taoism and Christianity - it just seems to fit so well.

That's really all I can say haha, I really like what you said. So thinking about this a little bit, are you saying that Tao IS God (Christian), so Tao is the predominant, meaning, without God, there would still be Tao? Or do you just simply mean that God IS the Way (Tao). (Yes, this is all only for my perspective, with Christianity).

Hmmm. Your all speaking of Tao as a noun. A noun that acts, or atleast, can be used. I don't see it like this. Verse 4: Tao Te Ching by: Jonathan Star "Tao is empty yet it fills every vessel with endless supply Tao is hidden yet it shines in every corner of the universe With it, the sharp edges become smooth the twisted knots loosen the sun is softened by a cloud the dust settles into place So deep, so pure, so still It has been this way forever You may ask, "Whose child is it?" - but I cannot say This child was here before the Great Ancestor" I see this as a state of mind. WE are the ones that, following the way of the Tao, can reduce our own stress, WE are the ones that loosen our own tangled minds. This verse, as a philosophy to me, speaks more of accepting Tao, or acting with the mindful awareness of accepting Tao in one's life. How to live a good life, a fun life, without stress or ignorance or negative energy. The emtpy, never-ending usefulness I see not as a mindset, but as (and here I am again the Christian) God's ultimate power. Tao was not here before God, but Tao (as a philosophy) was here out of the creation of God. Is this a direct contradiction to this verse?

Agreed.

Haha of course, sir (or ma'am?). I didn't expect you to go and read everything, just backing up my claim. By definitive edition I think it means the translation, not the essence. It has every character and what it could possibly mean

Hmm..are you talking about in general? I have made no such claim, and won't, because I don't think there is a definitive answwer for anything, ever. If you would like, check this site out: http://www.parkourgenerations.com and read up on the articles about what parkour vision is. It's not just me who says this changes a person's literal vision.

1. Pointing out that I had to read through all those unrelated-or-not posts, which takes a lot of time 2. "Tao Te Ching, The Definitive Definition" by Jonathon Star (sorry about not quoting it) 3. I'm not seeing where in-action as action over non-action as action is BETTER or more beneficial to the individual, especially specifically to me. 4. I feel like I can agree with that. being stuck in dogma. But dogma taken from any and all labels when and where necessary, which is whati have learned thus far from Taoism. Use what works, throw away what doesn't.

Hello everyone. I've been calling (part of) myself a Taoist for quite some time, I'd say 3 years. I've really bene interested lately in finding like-minded people with whom I can talk about my beliefs and those of Taosim with. This is why I've joined these forums! I hope these forums are active and hopefully I'll be able to express myself cealry and learn from all of you as well! John

OKAY! SO... Now that I read through all the related and/or non-related posts For the future, why not just PM each other about such MOD issues/ideas? I do not agree with that translation at all. I feel this says to accept laziness, to be happy with one's present condition, even when something beneficial lays right in front of you. Everything takes time, so improve, but do not think you must improve NOW (or even CAN improve NOW). Without goals and desires we can never progress, and progression is what allows humans to advance individually and societally. Progress is. I offer the translation I am using, as usual, with my thoughts and feelings because, TianShi, the TTC affects my life personally, no matter whom or what it was originally written for. Putting a value on status will cause people to compete Hoarding treasure will turn them into thieves Showing off possessions will disturb their daily lives Thus the Sage rules by stilling minds and opening hearts by filling bellies and strengthening bones He shows people how to be simple and live without desires To be content and not look for other ways With the people so pure Who could trick them? What clever ideas could lead them astray? When action is pure and selfless everything settles into its own perfect place Desires are to be avoided, but physical materialism, not spiritual endeavors. I must strive for a closer relationship with God, I desire this, to show my thanks and love for the life God has allowed me to have. When we act out of selfish reasons, our reward will not be as it should. When I act for selfish reasons, bad things happens. When I act to truly help another, I see around me many signs telling me that because of my good works, good works will happen to me. This verse tells me to care about the basic and bare necessitites of life: food, clothing, shelter, water. But also, to have interests and hobbies, but not TOO many. To not overload myself with the outside world, but to have a taste of it so that I may experience life in a content manner. But I am only content through the fulfillment of my desires, my specific goals, which take time, and which should not be overcrowded but reasoned with and understood that I am Human, and being Human is my greatest strength. Do not show off. But also, remember, it is only showing off if YOU cannot do it. The point is, act out of necessity, not out of negative energy. What is the purpose of having strong bones if your always full with food, unable to move? Again, moderation. Eat, but only out of necessity. Work, and train, and develop, but only out of necessity (even if that necessity is joy...would you rather be happy or sad?) So do what makes you happy, but in moderation. When one is content, they will easily be able to see traps being laid for them. Scams and false hopes will easily be avoided because the person already has what he/she is looking for, and the only way to fulfill what we are looking for is by action..by going out and doing it...within reason and moderation. Enlightenment comes not from stilling the mind or the sitting without moving, but from action. Action leads to enlightenment, not inaction. I know, I'm a freerunner, and I claim enlightenment through the vision Freerunning affords one's self. If you are not a freerunner, then you lack this vision. But there is no ONE way, so perhaps you too are enlightened. Freerunning is just another path: that of necessary action, whether out of joy or expression or to help another, we as freerunners do not show off and we do not pride ourselves, we humble ourselves. This verse is excellent in saying: Do what you need to do to be happy, and to stay happy, in moderation, and to not flaunt your happiness to another, but help them to achieve their happiness as well.

I'm very sleepy after a good day's work...or maybe I should just say after working so much in this day that I'm not going to quote the various comments, just refer to them. Well, I can agree with the whole "I" am here, so I must be important. I think it will be Manitou to comment on my next comment "I" am here because God (biblical Christian) willed it. Though, is "preference" really suggested by that statement? The verses of the DDC that were posted explaining that the Sage, as Heaven and Earth, have no preference is something I think that many people would do well to learn from and exemplify in their daily lives (Yes, I am of course included in that). However, if there is a God, and this God will's my existence, if at any time this God willed me to not be in existence it would be so just like that! (snaps fingers) My point is that, I don't see how anything IN creation can be prefered over something else, because that something else IS IN creation as well. This means there is no room for preference, if you say, as I do, that all comes from God, and His will, the power of Tao. But I do not see God as a pusher of conditions from the side lines! I very much believe that I am a piece of Him, or that when I die my sould shall return to His presence and I may live forever. I do feel that God is not necessarily me, or that I have the powers of God, but that the Love of God, out of being created by Him, is in me. And finally, I believe that Humans were created by God. How, though, is the real question. Did God blow into the nostrils of clay, forming Adam, or did the elemnts and the matter rise up to create an animal that eventually evolved into the Human? Either way, all comes from God, so even evolution (remember, this is all IMO) means that God created us. Peace for all. (Though by saying peace for all, does that mean Unrest now exists in our minds? )

I couldn't agree more, manitou. I HAVE questioned my religious upbringing's beliefs. I DO question everything I read, from school work to the Bible to the TTC...to my self. I am a Freerunner, it is in my nature with an affinity for disobedience to seek truth, or reason, and yes, I have found my answers and yes, claim to understand and know my purpose in life. I'm not sure how your post is relating to what I asked.. We are the people creating the outside conditions. But people came from somewhere, and my belief about where we came from is irrelevant to this discussion. It does however mean that, to me, God has allowed humans to come about (whether created, evolved, both, or some other way) for a purpose, otherwise we would not be here. For everything has a purpose, even if purpose-less. Like I said, this purpose, God's will, I call Tao. daweiYour #2 statement brings to mind this little story (I am completely butchering this): A man once got a horse, and they said this was good. Then he fell off the horse and broke his leg, and they said this was bad. A war arose in the country and when they came looking for people to serve, this man had a broken leg, so he could not serve and his life was still his. This, we can see, is good. Taking out the good and bad, we see that there is no good and bad, only doing. I think that IS much harder to apply to things such as 9/11 and the earthquake in Japan. I mean, if someone off the street came and asked you if 9/11 was bad, would you be able to look them in the face and say "no"? I DO think there is only doing, I am just saying it would be difficult to deny good and bad to a large mass of people about something so catastrophic.

Whoa. That's quite interesting and I really like the way that sounds too, I actually grasped what you were saying quite quickly and easily. I feel like I could adopt this approach very easily: it makes sense to my understanding and feelings and how I believe. I really can't reword what you have said, so I would just simply say that I agree with that. There is no choice, because our actions are dictated by the external factors and whatever needs to be done will be. 2 things. 1 - I feel that these external factors are there for a reason, a purpose, as well. Therefore, all the conditions that affect our choice are there for a reason, leading the choice of action to occur for a reason. The cause/effect idea of free will really flows well, I am merely stating that it all happens FOR a reason, and this reason is that of God's will (which Tao is the name I have given to God's will). Any comments on the last sentence? 2. Is it possible to go against the external conditions? Is it only the Sage that would not go against the external conditions?

I see. Then...I change my last post to this, officially: Thank you very much marblehead, I appreciate the kind thoughts. I really do. You were right haha, when I read the part about doing things because there is no other option, I said, "huh?". I can see what you mean when you say that this does not mean we don't have free will. Could this be called "determinism"?

Thank you very much marblehead, I appreciate the kind thoughts. I really do. You were right haha, when I read the part about doing things because there is no other option, I said, "huh?". I can see what you mean when you say that this does not mean we don't have free will. Could this be called "determinism"? I had a very interesting discussion with some Baptist Bible students a couple weeks ago. We were discussing free will and fate, as written in the various books of the Bible. We (honestly I) came to conclusion of the discussion that (and remember this is the Christian God in me): We have free will, yes, the ability to choose one thing over another, but that, because God is all-knowing, God KNOWS what free choice I am going to make before I make it. I may change my choice, and God would know before hand how many times I am going to change it before I actually make up my mind. I know this sounds contradictory but it is not! There are VERY similiar, and these lines are extraordinarily thin, but it makes sense. Where a thing/event/our action is GOING to happen and God knows it will happen, even though we CHOOSE to do this or that. Where does this all lead? Well, is this perhaps that level you were saying you couldn't reach? Where omniscience of God and free will of Humans does exist at the same time, and that these 2 concepts are not contradictory of one another? [Now, this is completely different but I want to ask you specifically marblehead (but I hope others answer too!)]: do you believe this statement? "We may choose between doing this or that, but be careful, because we cannot choose the consequences." I'm not sure if that belief is incompatible with the one above. I'm not sure if Choose This, but Not the Consequence is incompatible with Free Will/Omniscience.] {I seriously need the general forums} Edit: Thinking about it a little I would have to say these beliefs are completely compatible. The consequences are the results of our actions which are freely chosen and at the same time known before hand by God. Okay...agree/disagree/don't care/irrelevant to this discussion and I lose browny points...

Simple question: Is karma a part of Taoism? Yay or Nay? Cheers! John

YES! My turn (finally!) [i make sure to read all posts before I chime in and that takes a couple days, making sure I understand all posts.] I have always thought that everything has a purpose, that everything was created for a reason, even if that reason is for the thing to be completely useless or..well..to have no reason at all. So I love to hear that others share in that "useless opinion" concept and then move on. I see that similar to the beautiful/ugly view. Though some thing may be useless to me, it may bu useful to another. Though some thing may look beautiful to me, it may look ugly to another. (Follow that, this thought comes out): Is it correct to say, then, that no thing is ever beautiful or ugly, just simply exists? No thing is ever dangerous or safe, just dependent upon view and perception? That there is LESS safe or MORE safe, LESS dangerous or MORE dangerous, but never completely one or the other? I am going to post the translation I am reading from because it does differ significantly in wording, though I feel the message is exactly the same. Save for the last part, where I think Karma comes in. (Not sure if Karma is a part of Taoism...I should ask that in the general forum, no?) Everyone recognizes beauty only because of ugliness Everyone recognizes virtue only because of sin Life and death are born together Difficult and easy Long and short High and low - all these exist together Sound and silence blend as one Before and after arrive as one The Sage acts without action and teaches without talking All things flourish around him and he does not refuse any one of them He gives but not to receive He works but not for reward He completes but not for results He does nothing for himself in this passing world so nothing he does ever passes Beginning with "The Sage acts without action..." I easily apply that to Karma in that, to do things because you WANT to, because it feels GOOD doing them, means that you are not lying/deceiving and therefore, without seeking reward, shall be rewarded. I see in my life that the more I do good, the more Good does to me. (And as seen from Ch. 1 study I claim Christ as my God, so I would call this "Good does to me" and God's reward for me doing good BECAUSE I WANT TO, rather than flaunting it to everyone.) (And for a further thought, the Bible says to close the door and pray behind it, to not flaunt your prayers out in public. This is a perfect example of how Tao and Christianity are compatible in my life: I work, but because I want to, not to show others.) I don't mind labeling openly one thing as ugly. I know and understand that it is only from my point of view. I do not think it is wrong of me to go about labeling things as "ugly" or "cool" or "good." If find allowing all of these thoughts to come to me to relax my mind, to let peace flow through my head, to know that I have my point of view but it is no way ABSOLUTE. I believe dualities exist, we must not avoid thinking about them,, but welcome them in knowing that we are all different and should accept our differences and flourish from them. I was thinking ealrier today: what's the point of understanding the essence of a thing? So what? So I see the rose as a rose, why does it matter whether I see/understand the ESSENCE of the rose or not? I understand that the essence of the rose, the thing that made the rose is Tao (the will of God..again Ch. 1 study). Understanding the essence is not the only path to enlightenment. (Which, by the way, is a path to be walked, not a goal to be achieved).

Yea I had much trouble finding an active Tao forum! I'm glad we're both here! I'm very new to this place as well.

What? No this! haha We know the attributes of Dao? This raises many questions! 1. What exactly do you mean by attributes? Characteristics, effects, almost like personality-traits? 2. How many are there, is there a number to be placed? 3. How do we know the attributes, or, how have we come to know? 4. By "we" do you mean "you" or "we" in general as all those who studied Dao deeply enough for a long enough time, etc.? Actually I think maybe I'm just ont far enough into deeply studying the TTC. That's probably it. I have a feeling once I move on to more chapters... I have to say studying this is quite fun. I'm glad I came upon this site.

(Check that out I totally learned how to multi-quote haha!) We know the attributes of Dao? This raises many questions! 1. What exactly do you mean by attributes? Characteristics, effects, almost like personality-traits? 2. How many are there, is there a number to be placed? 3. How do we know the attributes, or, how have we come to know? 4. By "we" do you mean "you" or "we" in general as all those who studied Dao deeply enough for a long enough time, etc.? Thank you...for stating that more clearly than if I tried to myself. But I do feel like what you said is right on target: God is at the top of the ladder, even though, by His own will, that ladder is Dao (or made of Dao, created by Dao, came into being by Dao, etc.)

Yes I completely undertsand what you speak of about the concept and use of words. I have discovered that on my own a couple years ago. I had always felt that words were just words, I may call my self a Buddhist but know that I worship Christ. I can tell someone I am a Republican when I know I agree more with Democrats on issues. Just a word. I like that! A verb, not a noun. I had never thought of that approach before. I think the closest thing to that that I have "felt" or believed was that Tao is the name I have simply given to God's will. Tao comes from God. Simply, Tao is the exerting force of God's will. This is the Christian part of me, the label, that is. To some, Christian may mean believing in the Bible or a million different things. But to me, Christian simply means I believe in the Trinity. Just a label. A word is a shortcut for a larger message, and often these shortcuts are used so much they simply go unquestioned and lose their original meaning. This is why I never tell people my "religion" for I DO claim to be a Christia-Tao. But to understand what that actually means, you really have to ask me questions: what do I feel about abortion, gay rights, etc. YES! I question constantly! My discipline, Parkour, demands constant questioning as to why we are doing certain movements, why are we putting ourselves through such strenous demands, why, why, why? It reinforces what we already know so we do not forget, but also allows new ideas to form and maybe even replace old ones. It is a constant path of evolution and adaptation to one's current and present situation. To question means we are always ready to change and move on in the face of new obstacles whenever they occur. These last few posts have really helped me out a lot! Thanks for taking the time to respond to them

I do! [i apologize I haven't figured out how to multiquote yet] Marblehead: "I would point out though: Tao is unknowable. The Way is knowable. This is why I think it is important to use these two words (Tao and Way) in their proper context. IMO, this makes the first line of the translation by Jonathon Star that you offered invalid. The Way (the way of the manifest universe) can be walked." Wow. That really struck me. Tao is unknowable but the way is knowable. I would ask, if we give The Way a name, does it suddenly not become The Way? That's what I got from that verse: A name that can be named is not The Name I took this as referring to the The Way. The Name is what we call The Way. Is this wrong? And because the name that can be named is not The Name, Tao can never be talked about. EDIT: Example: If we named the best path in life Tao, then suddenly it is no longer the best path (by best path I mean The Way). So trying to tell people, take this path, we can not actually know what the path is IF we give it a name. So this would mean Tao can never be talked about, if we are to try to present it to people who say may be looking for spiritual guidance, etc.? (I'm pretty sure I'm arguing against myself right now haha, sorry about that) Are The Way and The Name not related? I was thinking that Tao IS The Way, that Tao IS..well..the best good for a persons life, making it THE path everyone would benefit most from. If you can make sense out the mess I just created, you are a text ninja