Fu_dog

Wow - lots of excellent posts here! Sifu Terry - Thanks for your tips on optimizing FP practice. To be honest, I was trying to substitute FP meditations for sleep and it wasn't working out as I would have liked. So, your comment about needing FP practice with adequate sleep was very good. Also, you are correct as to where I am with my practice. I have finished the Basic Standing and Basic Seated Meditations, and I typically alternate them every other day (I love how they complement each other, BTW). I am just starting to learn the first of the Intermediate Standing exercises. Eventually, I will learn them all, however, I am not in a hurry to do so as I am getting excellent results from what I know so far. And, you are correct that I have been practicing about 4 months. You and I spoke by phone on Nov 16, and I began my Flying Phoenix practice in earnest the next day, Nov 17, which ironically, was my birthday. Michael - I appreciate your words here... thanks for contributing to this thread. It seems people arrive at the same destination, so long as they are following a True Path. I read your book and try to follow your guidelines for hours of practice ( 1 to 2 per day for people trying to optimize their energy), however due to my long work days and business travel that remains a perpetual challenge. ;-) Also, I liked the short story that you tell to begin your book....the more I practice Qigong, the more I am aware of the forces of Good and Evil, Light and Dark. I will post more on that sometime later. Sifu Garry - thanks for your encouragement...that means a lot to me! Yes, I am definitely feeling a tremendous envelope of energy while practicing FP, especially during any/all of the meditations that involve movement. As I do the movements, as my hands move, the FP Energy itself seems to suggest a speed limit...seems to slow my movements so that the subtle feeling of the Energy playing on my hands, arms is optimized. It is really difficult for me to explain the feeling during practice, as we are getting into a realm of reality where words are woefully inadequate to describe the actual experience. Sifu Terry - another question for you... again pedestrian, however, I would be very appreciative to hear your opinion. Can you recommend a relatively Yang set of exercises to balance the relative Yin nature of Flying Phoenix practice? My body seems to ask for this... especially upper body exercises as some of the stances in FP put quite a tax on the leg muscles. I would like to keep my daily (or every other day) Yang exercises to 15 to 25 minutes per day. By Yang exercises, I might mean pushups, sit ups, weight training, etc. I am looking for overall balance in my routine. Hopefully what I am asking makes sense. Your thoughts? Thanks, Lloyd

Hi Sifu Terry - OK, shifting gears a little, I have a rather pedestrian (but important) question to ask regarding Flying Phoenix. It's a really rich system, with quite a few exercises. So, as for a practice routine, assuming an average 60 minutes a day devoted to Flying Phoenix, what do you recommend? Is it better to work sequentially through the FP exercises we know? Or, are there base exercises that should be practiced more often, with greater frequency? One thing I am finding is my pace of doing the movements while doing FP has slowed considerably...I am definitely into moving slow like shifting sand. After a period of time, that seems to be a natural occurrence. I mention this because with the relative slow pace I now average 20 minutes per exercise (I'm speaking specifically of the seated meditations), so in one hour I comfortably do three exercises. Also on a side note, the Flying Phoenix meditations have continually gotten stronger and stronger with each passing week I have practiced them...is there any end to this increasing energy? Thanks for your advice and council on this. Lloyd

Oh well, I don't typically weigh in on the subject of science and spirituality, however, I will offer some perspective. Science can be inadequate as it relates to the spiritual, in that it's based on "proof" and logic. The spiritual can't be proved by measurement or instrumentation, and it certainly isn't logical. If one is has had a spiritual experience, for example via qigong practice or mediation, then it is possible to know with certainty the existence of the spiritual via direct experience. In other words one can know it's true, however, it's nothing that can ever be proven. Or, put another way there is truth that can't be (or hasn't been) verified by science. However, those who hang their hat on science may say if it can't be proven then it doesn't exist or isn't true. Even when faced with a true spiritual phenomenon, the disciple of science may rationalize it away saying they may have been mistaken with their observation, that what they saw is a hoax, etc. Doestoevsky once said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "You tell me I am engaging in fantasy because I believe in God, and yet you with your science believe you can construct an ideal society base on logic alone. However, what you fail to see is you can use logic to justify anything. An ideal society based on logic alone? Now, which one of us is really engaged in fantasy?" For science to hold out that something doesn't exist because it can't be proven is problematic. Science continues to develop better instrumentation, so that new things are discovered....often things they said were not real prior to the invention of the instrument of observation. So, a limitation of science itself is to some extent a limitation of the state of observation technology. As observation technology improves, science gradually acknowledges the existence of more phenomena. Science to my mind can be a limiting philosophy. On the other hand, many will point out its benefits to mankind due to all the inventions that have come about "due to science". However, to my mind "science" to often takes credit for "discovery". They are not the same. Discovery is to a large degree independent of science. All that said, I am at the point where it's fine with me where ever people want to land on the continuum between science and religion, because IMHO, neither side will move the other very far via debate.

Sifu Terry - I very much appreciate your very thoughtful and thorough response. It does, in fact, provide spiritual insight on a number of different levels that I have glimpsed, and believe I had observed at times. However, you have obviously given this matter of the power/energy associated with virtue and evil a great deal of thought and provide some rather unique (and wise) perspective. I am in the middle of a pretty busy business trip as I write this, so I will comment more after I have had time review further and reflect on your observations. Thanks, Lloyd

Sifu Terry - The discussions beg more questions about FP and energy practice in general. From your experience: (1) Is there an energy associated with virtue? (2) Is there a correlation between being good (virtue) and the development of energy from a qigong practice such as FP? (3) Assuming the answers to (1) and (2) are yes, then to what extent does living a virtuous life effect one's qigong practice? (4) Is there an energy associated with being evil? (5) How does karma effect energy (good and bad)? I have purposefully left these questions a little open to interpretation to allow you flexibility in your response. Thank you, Lloyd

Sifu Terry - your posts are priceless. I have pointed several of my friends to this thread over the past few weeks, and they all have given me positive comment after reading. I can't thank you enough for sharing, as your commentary significantly enhances our understanding and appreciation of this wonderful art. Fu_dog

Three good music albums (i.e., each is a collection of music) for qigong, meditation and healing: (1) Om mani padme hum by Jane Winther - available on Amazon mp3 download - Winther does this classic chant slowly, thoughtfully, soothingly (2) Path to the Heart by Golana - available on Amazon - American Indian flute music soulfully played....flute only; the silence between notes adds to the effect (3) Music to Disappear in by Raphael - available on Amazon (note: *not* to be confused with Raphael's Music to Disappear in II) - IMO, a landmark in calming new age Enjoy!

I've sent you an email-Mal

I am surprised someone did not mention C.K. Chu's Eternal Spring Chi Kung. His Nei Kung was talked about in the first few pages of this thread. I have been practicing Chu's Eternal Spring Chi Kung for 5 years now as part of my morning qigong routine. It has become an everyday practice for me and I find it's an excellent start to my day. Now if I *don't* do it, I feel like something is missing. As programs go, it includes more physical movement than many systems, however, it is not as strenuous as his Nei Kung program. He says he designed it for older people, so the positions are a bit easier to negotiate. That said, Chu developed ESCK based on the principles of his Nei Kung system. It only takes 10 to 15 minutes to complete, and the benefits are great.... especially for those like me with an office job that doesn't provide the opportunity for much physical movement. You can find ESCK books and vids on his website, along with his Nei Kung material.

Sifu Terry - Your stories add a tremendous amount of color to the Flying Phoenix system, as well as your own background! Thanks so much for sharing. Also, I appreciate your suggested practice routine. To be honest, I have not done more than 3 seated FP exercises at a time because of the tremendous energy they generate. I do each slowly, and the 3 usually take me around 45 minutes. I find you are so right when you say slower is better, stronger! I am taking this conservative approach to allow my body to adjust, get used to the energy. I am planning to work my way up to 4, 5, 6 seated exercises in one setting. I can say that after approximately 90 days of practicing FP, I have had several people tell me I look younger, more rested. I'm 55 years old, so this is a good thing. ;-) So, from a practical standpoint, I have tried a number of systems of qigong, but have experienced nothing like Flying Phoenix. Again, thanks for your stories and insight!

Flying Phoenix seated qigong is excellent. Can find videos on Terry Dunn's site or Amazon.

Sifu Terry - Thanks for the tip on Seated Meditation #6 - yes, now that I remember *that's* the one I did just before bedtime that was like a double shot of expresso! The energy from that meditation is very powerful indeed..... I'll shift that one to a morning qigong. I've recently ordered your Flying Phoenix Advanced Seated Meditations DVD, and am looking forward to learning the entire Flying Phoenix series over time. This qigong is special, and it's a qigong for life. Again, thanks for posting on this forum. Lloyd

Sifu Terry - Your stories and explanations are fantastic and also quite informative. There is a wow factor to some of your stories...very good reading. As one who has practiced Flying Phoenix qigong for only about 2 months now, I can attest to the power of the system. When I finish the sets, I feel amazingly refreshed and revitalized with a really strong energy. At least for now, I avoid practicing FP later at night, because the energy created keeps me awake for several hours! It's pretty encouraging to hear what one can expect with a diligent practice of the basic Flying Phoenix sets. Thanks so much for taking the time to post on this forum. Really excellent stuff! Lloyd

Spirit - Yes, Terry Dunn discussed the dan tien specifically. However, on the video I watched (his "Six Seated Meditations" DVD) when he begins to talk about percentage breath he simply states something to the effect of "breath in and fill up" to a certain percentage, and mentions the lower abdomen. The was part about where the percentage goes is what I wanted clarified. So I contacted Sifu Dunn to discuss. It is the dan tien, i.e., that is where the percentage goes. As far as how he explains the percentage breaths, Sifu Dunn does an excellent job of communicating the percentages and sequences. Each exercise has its own sequence of percentage breaths. For some exercises there is a sequence of three different percentage breaths. Other exercises have a sequence of up to five different percentage breaths. The percentage breaths are used to begin each exercise. I am not sure how or why the percentage breathing works. Also, I can't explain why so much energy is felt during the slow movements. However, for me personally there is a power in practicing Flying Phoenix that I have not felt in any other system. There are a number of different exercises in Flying Phoenix qigong, and Terry Dunn has a number of DVD's that explain the system. There are standing meditations, seated meditations, beginner and advanced. I have more to go to learn the system thoroughly, however, for the time being my system is still getting used to the energy generated by the exercises I am currently practicing. HTH

To the question.... Can the percentage breathing be learned from the video? Most likely yes, you can learn it from Sifu Terry Dunn's video. So, to be clear, there is no need to talk to Sifu Dunn as I did to activate it. I only talked to him to get clarification. Sounds like some of the posters are already familiar with this style from the original master, Doo Wai. Fortunate to learn from the origin. That said, to learn the system, Terry Dunn's videos are very well done. The thing I needed to clarify when I spoke with Sifu Dunn is it's the dan tien itself that is the focus on the percentage breathing, and for that matter all breathing that follows. Also, and this is important, the breath is *not in any way* coordinated with the movements. This is in contrast to tai chi, which does coordinate movement and breath. Finally, the breathing sequences are to be followed exactly....don't modify them in any way. Generally, I tend to categorize qigong into primarily a "building qi" or "circulating qi" program. With Flying Phoenix, I can say it does both very powerfully. To be honest, I am not sure why this system works so well...it's an esoteric system. That said, it's a system that I can see myself staying with for the long term.

Ya Mu - your posts are very helpful, especially this thread....very good stuff. As one who is over 50 myself I was pretty interested in your success formula. You are saying 2 hours of qigong per day should do it for most of us. Thanks for sharing this.

Jakara - I appreciate your logical argument. That said, logic itself is flawed, as logic is restricted by input variables. Start with the wrong input variables, and you will reach a wrong conclusion. In early computer lingo, the expression was "garbage in/garbage out". Now, I would like *anyone* to tell me their input variables, i.e., their starting point to begin a logical conclusion is perfect. It won't be, can't be. All observation is partial, and incomplete in some way. This is most eloquently said in the beginning of the Tao de Ching: "The spoken Tao is not the Tao." No matter how you explain Tao, it is incomplete. So given that our very best observation is partial and incomplete, then logic breaks down as a means of argument towards a conclusion. Logic can't explain spirit, can't explain chi, can't explain love, can't explain Tao. The fact is, the Eastern philosophy of science does not necessarily get caught up in a burden of proof as much as looking at cause and effect and understanding that this can be applied. With this philosophy, they were able to take discovery further than the West in many areas. As some evidence, look at the history of invention coming out of China. It's amazing. But, on to another point. Almost all science, even Western science, is analogy. Not fact. Even what our science says is real is not the true thing. So, "things contain fire" is an apt analogy. It works. That said, today we use more eloquent analogies. 100 years from now, the analogies will become still more eloquent, making today's scientific belief laughable. Look at Newton's laws. The were very logical, with mathematical models for prediction. In essence, what Newton really did was come up with analogies for gravity, mass and acceleration. Einstein comes along and shatters every one of Newton's laws, proving them all incorrect. If you study a little of Einstein's theory of relativity, you'll find that "common sense" falls by the wayside and fails miserably, because common sense can in no way explain the phenomena discovered by Einstein (example, time slows to zero as things are accelerated towards the speed of light, mass increases as things are accelerated, length increases as things are accelerated, etc.). Common sense could never explain that things we believe are real will change relative to position and acceleration. I will write no more about this, because if people have bought into Western science, then that's OK. It works and can be argued "logically" add day long. I really don't get caught up in what other people believe, because it usually works for them. For me, I can't accept the limitations of logic and Western science. To the original question again, "Why is science having such a hard time explaining chi?", that's really easy to see. The problem is not with chi, but with Western science. Chi is an analogy. The analogy works, and we can use it to heal, to gain energy, wisdom and improve the quality of life. Does it have to be proven? To me, it doesn't. Peace.

Another consideration: The philosophy of Western science differs from the philosophy or Eastern science. Western science places a high priority of measuring/metering/quantifying. In other words, a thing is "proven" to exist by observing the thing itself. If they can't see it, then this creates problems for Western science. The usual conclusion is if the thing can't be observed, then it doesn't exist. You can see where there are challenges to proving chi. Eastern science does not place the same priority on observing/measuring/quantifying the thing. Instead, there is a great emphasis on cause and effect. If the cause and effect relationship can be replicated over and over, then per Eastern science the thing (i.e., the cause) exists. So, using the Eastern philosophy of science, it is has been relatively easy to "prove chi exists". When chi is applied, tangible results happen. For example, Chi practice promotes healing. Consistently. A cause and effect relationship exists. For this reason, Chi is typically used as therapy in many Eastern hospitals. Not to thread jack, however, Western science's dependency on measurement and/or observation devices is a limiting factor, which can lead to erroneous conclusions. Things don't exist if they can't be observed or measured. Western scientists often can't take a step back and see that as measurement/observation devices become better over time, more phenomena are "proven" that those same scientists previously said were non-existent. Chi falls into that category today. Perhaps in the future when better observation devices are developed, then chi may be able to be "proven" true by Western science, and the existence of chi will have widespread acceptance in the scientific community. To some of the earlier posts, perhaps Western science is getting close, though among Western scientists there is not a widespread acceptance of chi as a real thing. As far as I know, it is not part of the cirriculum in Western medical schools. To my thinking, the philosophy of Western science has a flaw, and that flaw is at the heart of the original poster's question.

Thanks for letting us know. As soon as you know the youtube link please post it.

Vortex - how do you dowse to determine qi? Thanks...

I know a TCM doctor who removes bad energy from areas of the body as one of her primary means of healing. The method she uses was passed on to her by her family, as they were healers also. I have not seen anything like it, however, she does indeed remove bad energy. Based on her analysis of your pulses, tongue, etc., she determines where the bad energy is located and can remove it if you wish to receive the treatment. That said, not sure how to respond to your question about bad energy in "body cavities", as I am not sure what that refers to. Can you ask your question a different way?

I've tried other approaches, however, I've found the only path to sanity is spiritual.

Great topic. For me, it was The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Doestoevsky. An excellent treatise on man and God, as well as the first novel ever written that contained a courtroom trial. This book profoundly influenced my views of spirituality and human motivation. Also, it shattered my belief in science. I read the Brothers K in my mid 20's and until today, 30 years later, I continue to hold beliefs Doestoevsky expounded in the book.

Interesting topic. There are a few that are taught, for example about expansion and contraction of qi with the seasons, etc. and I accept their validity. With all the systems of qigong and with TCM, there are the means to energize and heal. That said, Ya Mu brings up an excellent point. That is, that energy has a way of transcending all of these rules, to do beneficial things on it's own according to it's own way. The person supplies the yi, or intent, and energy responds.

Sykkel - Thus to my first question: What type of results? About a year ago, I practiced SFQ for about 60 days (though not consistently). I was looking for "building Qi" exercises, as my Qi was depleted. My experience led me to the conclusion that other forms of Qigong were stronger for that objective. As for Chang's exercises, in my opinion Crane Breathing and Turtle Breathing are modified forms of Dan Tien breathing. However, I find they build more Qi than Dan Tien and/or reverse Dan Tien breathing. I generally classify Qigong as doing primarily one of two things, either (1) "building Qi" or (2) "smoothing Qi/opening channels". (In reality, most forms of Qigong do both, however, my arbitrary classification is based on what I feel the Qigong does primarily.) My perception from the relatively brief time I practiced SFQ is that is primarily a "smoothing Qi/opening Channels" type of Qigong, though it does do some "building" also. That said, perhaps SFQ does something else, on a higher level. I am interested in this thread because, as coincidence would have it, after one year of not practicing SFQ I re-started the practice of the style just last night. This time I plan on going at it consistently every evening, for a minimum of 6 months before drawing conclusions. So, if you have practiced SFQ for a period of time, what is your experience with the type of results? Your comments are welcome.