Mark Saltveit
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Everything posted by Mark Saltveit
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[TTC Study] Chapter 80 of the Tao Teh Ching
Mark Saltveit replied to Marblehead's topic in Daodejing
I'm torn about this passage -- the small town ideal seems nice on paper, but in real life just trying taking away the man's Ford F150 (and increasingly, internet access) and you've got a real problem. Also, there's a striking correlation between a lot of toxic thought (bigotry, conspiracy theories, addictions, survivalism) and this kind of isolation. 40 years ago people would have linked this to hippie communes, but they had a different set of problems. The point about the original meaning being "funeral vessels" not "weapons" is very interesting -- it makes this about ambition to conquer other nations, not knowledge of the world. Could there be a new synthesis of rural simplicity with global communication via the Internet? Could the Internet itself be considered a sort of electronic Tao? -
Not Dao is Dao.
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Chuang Tzu - Words, ritual and questions related to "Taoism"
Mark Saltveit replied to Rara's topic in Zhuangzi
Rara: It was common in these texts to put words into the mouths of esteemed figures -- The Yellow Emperor, etc. -- and Confucius was right up with as among the most esteemed sages. At the same time, you see Zhuangzi's devilish sense of humor, as he makes Confucius say things like "ritual and respect for elders [and other Confucian ideals] are stupid".- 38 replies
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Is there a place to discuss Daoist web sites?
Mark Saltveit posted a topic in Forum and Tech Support
Hi, I have a new blog that various Bums might find interesting. I don't see a place to discuss websites though (as opposed to books.) Does anyone have a pointer? It's called 'Taoish -- a place for irreverent spirituality'. http://www.taoish.org The latest post is an analysis by Prof. Steve Bokenkamp (Arizona State) of the difficulties in translating the Daodejing, using a single line of chapter 10 as an illustration. http://www.realchange.org/taoish/mirror-mirrormirror/ Thanks! Mark -
I posted an essay today at Warp, Weft and Way, an excellent blog of Eastern philosophy discussing this question. It's a response to a provocative post Donald Sturgeon posted last October. He was asking, can a Daoist (specifically a Zhuangist) criticize Nazis who are following their dao, given their rejection of conventional morality and relativism? [EDIT: to be clear, "their" rejection of conventional morality means "Daoists' rejection of"...] My essay reframes the question to ask, "Can there even be such a thing as a Nazi Dao?" The short answer is, sort of, but the goals and techniques are so destructive of Dao that they would quickly backfire and fail. They can be rejected purely on the grounds of ineffectiveness. There really can't be a Dao that seeks complete domination of nations through constant war. The question I didn't address is, are there other "bad" goals that can have effective Daos that work and would not undermine those involved? I can't think of any, but I'm curious what others think.
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Howard Bergerson's book "Palindromes and Anagrams" is a great and inexpensive clasic on both fronts. Hey, we've gotten some great news coverage for this event, such as The New York Times, the Times of London, and Time Magazine. Also, here is the .
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The guy who wrote that book, Jon Agee, is one of the competitors. And "Weird Al" Yankovic, who made that the final palindrome in his song "Bob," is one of the celebrity judges (along with Demetri Martin, comedian Jackie Kashian and John Flansburgh from ). Look, Osho saw I was oh so kool!
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Because words are symbols and not the thing itself. Not a fun answer but the real one. Hey, this palindrome discussion kind of tailed off, but I forgot to tell you, I won, and now I'm the world palindrome champion. Seriously! Anyway, the exciting news is that I'm hosting the first ever SymmyS Awards for outstanding palindrome acheivement for 2012. If you're in portland, northern avid judo ant, you should come! 8pm Sunday, Funhouse Lounge.
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Can there be such a thing as a Nazi Dao?
Mark Saltveit replied to Mark Saltveit's topic in Daoist Discussion
Well said, Aaron. I certainly wasn't suggesting that Nazism would be OK because it is the Dao that Nazis follow. The argument was more like this; there is what I call a little dao -- a more successful way to accomplish it, following principles of the big Dao -- for pretty much everything we do, from relationships to woodworking. Can there be something so inherently unDaoish that you can't find any kind of little dao for it? I think some ways you could pursue a Nazi agenda would be more effective than others, but the goals you would be pursuing violate the principles of Daoism -- limited meddling, not stoking anger against opponents, not categorizing -- so deeply, that (if you believe in Daoist principles) it would be doomed to failure. The dao of Nazism might just bring about it's inevitable collapse more quickly and efficiently. The article at Warp Weft and Way, and the very interesting comments that follow it, go into this in much greater and more philosophic detail. -
Those places are citadels of wealth. Not only is that hard to afford, but often the people are rather less pleasant.
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Can there be such a thing as a Nazi Dao?
Mark Saltveit replied to Mark Saltveit's topic in Daoist Discussion
Laozi and Zhuangzi have a lot to say about good government. It's pretty clear that it meddles as little as possible in people's lives (like cooking a small fish.) They don't even think the government is doing anything; apparently they created every good thing on their own, without any great government works. -
There are several organized Daoist sects, which I'm sure have a lot of specific beliefs and rules including deities (notably Laozi redefined as a God). But none of them, as far as we know, existed before 142 C.E., 500 years after the Laozi (as Daodejing was then known) and the Zhuangzi were pulled together. So you shouldn't feel bound by their details. Before the Celestial Masters, there is no sign of deities as we know them in Daoism. That was an innovation they brought, coincidentally (or not?) right about the time that Buddhism reached China from India. Just like Daoism, it seems that Buddha was not a deity at first but over time this may have slipped. If you need a label, you can always define yourself as a Zhuangist following the Zhuangzi; I don't know of any tradition that deifies him. ;-)
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Shanlung -- what a fun task, happy searching! Have you considered Leh, in Ladakh, India? Also McLeod Ganj, Manali, and other towns in the Himalayan foothills. Kerala is pretty wonderful all through, the most literate state in India due to land reform a century ago. Peru, Ecuador and parts of California (esp. Lost Coast, Big Sur, north of Santa Cruz where Neil Young settled) can give you that magical mix of mountains AND the sea.
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Can there be such a thing as a Nazi Dao?
Mark Saltveit replied to Mark Saltveit's topic in Daoist Discussion
I'm fine with it -- it seems to come straight out of the stories in Zhuangzi and the Daodejing about Butcher Ding, the fighting rooster trainer, the wheelright, the archer, etc. But your point about the impossibility of "the Dao of tyranny" is exactly on target. That's a good way to put it. I see the Daoist perspective as being, "Well, there are more effective and less effective ways to do tyranny, but tyranny itself is not effective in the long run." So it's kind of like asking, "how can I screw up gracefully?" -
That nice, what's it from?
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Can there be such a thing as a Nazi Dao?
Mark Saltveit replied to Mark Saltveit's topic in Daoist Discussion
Well, the original question was, is there anything so wrong (or unDaoish) that it does not have its own Dao? Nazism was only one example, and the writer of the original essay wasn't really specific to the history of Nazi Germany. Since that history is one of the few things I have actually studied academically, I did look at the specifics of that movement. But you can apply the same thought to any government. If Daoism (Lao-Zhuang thought, to be specific) says to run a government like you cook a small fish -- ie with a very light touch -- can there be a Dao of running a totalitarian government? Or is that a contradiction in terms, like blowing something up gracefully,? -
Thanks for that info, Dawei.
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Can there be such a thing as a Nazi Dao?
Mark Saltveit replied to Mark Saltveit's topic in Daoist Discussion
I agree, DAO rain TAO. That's pretty much the conclusion I reached in the piece. But it's not only that they both reject conventional morality. Zhuangzi also challenges the notion of telling people that they're wrong, more or less, in chapter 2. So, we agree that Nazism is wrong, but are we saying that as Daoists, or just humans knowledgeable of history? My point is that the Nazi way is deeply and fundamentally at odds with Dao. It's not wrong because of some morality; it just won't work, any more than fighting gravity, or fighting the ocean tides, would work. Not because the DDJ told me so, but empirically. Meddling governments fail, and poorly serve their people. They may win some battles but they will lose the war. I see Daoism as spiritually pursuing not only what is true inside men, but what is true generally -- in natures, the cosmos, etc. -
Great. Another reincarnation of Laozi. This place is crawling with them. If Westerners are so incapable of understanding Dao and beneath you, why are you even here?
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Thinker: How then do you interpret chapter two of the Daodejing? You often speak of your superior knowledge of Dao, especially as against Westerners. Will you tell us which "traditional Daoism" you follow? The one that was created 1,000 years after the Daodejing and Zhuangzi were compiled (Zhengyi), the one created 1,600 years after (Quanzhen), or a different one?
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Stated by who? A Chinese practitioner? Someone with good posture and ettiquette? One of the most essential elements of Daoism is rejecting rigid ideology and traditions. Another is to avoid distinctions and judgements, because they obscure deeper truths. I'm with Thinker here. I don't know who you are quoting, but it seems like either you mistake their meaning or perhaps their authority is suspect. Who appointed them Laozi anyway? (Or Fu Xi, if you prefer.)
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It depends a lot on how you define authenticity. You could just as easily ask, "Can any modern person, in China or not, become a Daoist?" Because Daoism arose at least 2,500 years ago, and the difference between anyone living today in China, and the residents of Chu in 400 B.C.E. is much greater than the difference between that same Chinese person, and anyone else on earth today.
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Isn't this true of every philosophy and religion in world history? Buddhism started in India, but we accept Chinese Buddhists. No one is arguing that Buddhism is India and India is Buddhism. No one argues that only Greeks can really understand Plato or Aristotle, or that only Israelis can understand Christ's teachings, or that every French person is Existentialist. Religions and philosophies rise out of a cultural and always refer to it, but they get a name precisely when they take on an independent life of their own, and that is precisely when they become available to people from different cultures (and times). Christianity didn't "start with" Abraham., though Jesus spoke of Abraham's covenant that he was fulfilling. By kaaazuo's logic, a Chinese capitalist in Shandong today, who owns a heavily polluting factory, pays off corrupt bureaucrats and is a fervent Christian, whose parents were die hard communists and embraced the Cultural Revolution and hated Daoism as feudal superstition -- that capitalist is a Daoist. What sense does that make? Not everyone in a cultural feels the "thousand points of pressure," as beautiful and insightful as that image is.
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Mark Saltveit, on 19 Feb 2013 - 23:38, said: I agree, it's easy to see how certain people may have gotten misconceptions, and the early mistakes have been and continue to be corrected as Westerners get a more nuanced view. My point is, these "misconceptions" are valid disputes that were discussed in China for many centuries before anyone in the West thought of them. They are not simply Western mistakes. They were not invented by Westerners, and they represent real disagreements in China as well as the West.
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Your point is well taken, and I don't disagree. There's not doubt that living in a culture gives a deeper understanding than reading about it; growing up in it is better than just living in it; having family there for generations is better than just growing up in it, etc. At the same time, fresh eyes can also be a source of strength, bringing new vigor to an older tradition, and allowing one to see things that are invisible to someone inside, because it's the water that they swim in. For better or worse, the U.S is standard bearer for the "fresh eyes" approach and China (along with India and Egypt) are the longest-simmering cultures. I don't think you can dogmatically say that one approach or the other is better; there's a yin and a yang between these approaches, too. Otherwise the United States could have no culture at all, no Christianity, no Aristotelianism, no Existentialism. And yet, China is openly appropriating American ideas and culture much more than the U.S. is appropriating China's.