Gamuret

I see that David Verdesi's name is being mentioned. It would be good to again take a look at the following thread: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=4731 I also see that many of the questions regarding David Verdesi's credentials still remain unanswered i. e.: From which university and when exactly did D. Verdesi get his doctorate? What was the subject and title of his thesis? What academic area inside anthropology did he do his Ph. D. in? Medical anthropology, cultural anthropology? It's also been stated that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government as far as his forthcoming book is concerned. His masters are mentioned to be respectable members of the community holding official posts. With which branch of the Chinese government does David Verdesi co-operate? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs? What kind of official positions do D. Verdesi's masters hold? And with which institutions? As far as having special powers like telekinesis, telepathy, etc. this is no proof that the person who has them is either honest, sincere or spiritual. The notion that powers automatically equal spiritual attainment is in my opinion heavily skewed. G.

I won't engage here in any polemics, neither will I comment upon what HouTian wrote. I just want to add my five cents worth. Dunbar said: "if it was all hype, why would the 30 people who studied with david in china last year all come back with testamony that david is legit... writing about the abilities they witnessed and signing up for more training?" This is not quite true. There is supposedly a considerable number of people who participated in D. Verdesi's seminars that were shocked and suprised to hear of the hidden costs (which were in certain cases very high) for the medicines. The main problem was that they weren't informed in any way in advance of these costs. Just take a look at D. Verdesi's new website (http://www.traditionaltao.com/) under the heading "Training in China" and see if there is anywhere clearly mentioned that empowerments, medicines, etc. will be charged separately or if there are even price-ranges available. For your reference a quote of the text under the heading "Training in China": "In the past, David has allowed students to receive empowerments and treatments from a master to assist in their individual training; in addition students have, in past seminars, been allowed to witness demonstrations given by a master. You can read about these experiences on the Foundation Training Forum as well as the Student Articles section. We have begun planning the next group for 2008 which is scheduled to take place in China in late summer or autumn. The tuition is 5000.00 Euros, plus accommodation and airfare." Pay attention to the last sentence! Why is it not written: "The tuition is 5000.00 Euros, plus accommodation and airfare. In case you will use the opportunity to receive empowerments and treatments from a master this will be an additional cost payed separately."? Why was not such a disclaimer put up? It's not my problem how the Verdesi-people run their organization, but it's clear that they are not entirely honest. And finally Sean Denty says that D. Verdesi indeed has a Ph. D. (http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=4731&st=60), but doesn't want to let us know from which university and when did Verdesi obtain his credentials. He also says that he is writting together with Rene Navarro a biography of Verdesi. How can it be possible that he doesn't know where Verdesi obtained his Ph. D. - a very poor biographer if you ask me! And if he knows, why is he so reluctant to let us know the information? As it was already said several times on this board a Ph. D. dissertation and the Ph. D. credentials are always public information. Why I'm writting all this? Because I don't like pompous, arrogant people who try to lure and deceive people. No matter how high and profound their achievement. As said I'll leave it at this and won't engage in any further polemic. G.

The person who is doing this has been simply using David Verdesi's way of marketing. I mean just look at the phrasing: "For the first time the doors open! How long they remain opened however, is uncertain. It seems that these remain accessible only a few years!" If I wouldn't know the source of this ad, I could easily be fooled that it was put out by one of David Verdesi's students or him himself. Obviously somebody is trying to cash in on the hype around immortals and "unique" opportunities to get to them. But this is what you get when you put a price tag on Dao and immortality selling them without clearly stating your credentials and instead just luring people with sweet promises and big claims. You open a can of worms, because others will imitate you. The situation is actually quite amusing.

I didn't ever express the request demanding phone calls to David. This is simply not true. I'm out of this, as I said. G. As said I'm not interested in this discussion anymore. Will do my own research.

Below you will find a brief PM exchange between me and Sean Denty. Judge for yourself - as said I'm out of all this. Have seen enough of it. The discussion is deteriorating away from the facts. Just one word for you Sean - it was you who contacted me first privately not vice-versa. You are now trying to turn tables on me - as many others on this forum I have chosen to remain incognito, because I value my privacy. Tell me how would David Verdesi feel if his mobile-phone number in China, his place of residence, etc. would be published here? On the other hand David Verdesi is a public figure and you guys are putting forward heavy claims in order to give your bussiness a veneer of respectability and excellence. I on the other hand am not a public figure and I don't advertise anything. I didn't pass any judgement about David Verdesi as a person or his school. I was merely inquiring about his credentials. AND FOR THE THIRD TIME, PLEASE READ THIS: MICHAEL SASO - A RESPECTABLE SCHOLAR WHO WORKED FOR 10 YEARS IN THE TAIWANESE DAOIST COMMUNITY. HE SPEAKS FLUENTLY CHINESE, JAPANESE AND HAS ALSO MASTERED CLASSICAL CHINESE! HE IS NOT AFRAID TO LET OTHER PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT HIS CREDENTIALS. AND HIS NOT MAKING EXAGGARATED CLAIMS. AGAIN FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Saso Here is the correspodence. I unfortunately didn't save all my replies. But here is the gist of it plus Sean Denty's answers (in red). I must again emphasize that Sean Denty contacted me fist. My PM is in blue. I didn't want to join his forum, because I'm just interested in facts. I'm not interested in talking with him on the phone, because I like to keep track of other people's answers so that I can quote them later, if there are any problems ---------------------------------- Hey, Yesterday, 09:09 AM Just wanted to let you know that I would be happy to share some of my experiences with privately. I can't speak with authority on David's research activities, but I can talk about some of the personal research and what I've seen. I went through a phase of sharing about David on TB, but it really wasn't the best approach. Anyway if you have sincere interest, I'm available. SeanHello Sean! Nice to hear from you. Look, I don't want to be a pain in the ass, but I'm really interested in your teacher's credentials. The questions still stand as you can see from my last post in the thread that I initiated. As you could also see I didn't make or at least tried to avoid to make any comments or passing judgement about your school or what David Verdesi's teaches. Why? Because I simply don't know and it would be unfair to do so. I can imagine that you are in regular contact with your teacher and I'd really appreciate it if you could ask him these questions or if it's too much to inquire about everything in one go, then just the following one's: "At which university and when exactly did David Verdesi acquire his doctorate?" "At which university and in what period of time did David Verdesi engage in undergraduate and postgraduate studies?" "The name of just ONE 'major university and hospital' in the U. S. and China respectively with which David Verdesi did his 'collaborative research' + information when did this happen and what kind of research was it.'" If you care to speak about your experiences, then please tell me the entire and whole story of David's teacher Da Zhen i. e. how he met him and where, etc? Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not asking for his address, because I know that D. Verdesi places great value on protecting the privacy of his teachers and I anyway wouldn't get it. I'm just asking this, because it was stated in one of your old posts that Da Zhen is widely known in the Chinese province of Heilongjiang. Which city or region in Heilongjiang, if you can tell me and if not just leave it and I won't press the issue. Where is Da Zhen now? Is D. Verdesi still in contact with him? As said if you cannot answer, just leave it. I'm asking so much about Da Zhen, because I'm really interested in alchemy. And in this regard, I already have another question. Tell me more about those Daoists who are supposed to be 300-years old or something and who solidified mercury for D. Verdesi by simply touching it. Where and above all how did he meet them? I'm interested in solid things, not some wishy-washy New-Age la-la. If you don't know, just say it. If you don't want to or cannot answer - yes you guess what's coming - just say it. I like meat on the bones not foam in the water. Sorry for being so blunt. Regards, Gamuret also known as Senor Gamureto Re:Hey, Yesterday, 04:07 PM Drop me a line if you feel like talking. The next couple days are good for me. (personal phone number edited as to protect Sean Denty's privacy). Cheers, Sean Re:Hey, Yesterday, 06:01 PM ok, I don't bite you know. I'm just an average guy, so no need to worry. Anyway, I'll do my best to answer your questions. Why don't we do this. I'll let you in the forum for a few days so you can read through some of the stuff there. Send me an email and I'll set up an account. I'll also write something as a response to your questions. Yours, Sean Re:Hey, Yesterday, 06:30 PM I see. Well I'll write something up then and send it to you. Best, Sean Re:Hey, Today, 08:28 AM Hi, Well even though you lack manners and the way you approached me was immature and childish to say the least, I am interested to know the answers to your questions myself. After the last three demanding and rather rude PMs from you, I have decided to share what I find out on our private forum. I did speak to David last night, he gave me a list of contacts and information that I will post there and personally follow up on. Obliviously if there were public, peer reviewed studies openly available, we would not be having this conversation. Much of David's work was done behind closed doors and not published. However, there are some details that can be tracked. The names of professors in New York, Vienna and China that he worked with are listed among other things. I met the one from Vienna and discussed the work they are doing. And yes, he does hold a PhD, although he does not currently hold a position at a university; he will likely in the next years. There's a lot more I could say, but it seems that you are not even willing to reveal your identity or speak with me. Good luck on your search. It dawned on me last night that you might very well be some punk in his 20's without any real experience or schooling, which would explain your behavior. Anyway, if you are willing to introduce your self to me and tell me about your self in a polite way, like any normal person would, I'll happily provide the names of professors and institutions David worked with. It would also be nice to know what University you did your post graduate work. I did my Masters in Education at Western Oregon University, you can look it up. If you do not have legit academic credentials, please don't bother to contact me again, unless you provide a written apology for your behavior. Folks, knock yourself out. I'm not playing the game anymore. Will do my own research, through my own channels.

Mwight, not all people are obssessed with money and some of us give a damn if the forum is free or of charge. This world is indeed going from bad to worse, but there are still some people who might try to find the truth, for the sake of Truth itself and not for any other ulterior motive. I've finished with my remarks. The thread has anyway devolved into non-sense and judgemental debate. Nobody is interested for sticking up to the facts. G.

I'll second that, senor Oolongo! John Carpenter - one of the great artists, who doesn't get the recognition he deserves. My favourites: Big Trouble in Little China and of course Prince of Darkness. Although In The Mouth of Madness is also brilliant

Friends, Romans, Countrymen (oops, the wrong speech!) Dear Ladies and Gentlemen................... and that fat Chinese cat from Sichuan sitting in the last row - , the whole discussion originally intended to be sober and fact-oriented is more and more devolving into a discussion heavily tainted by personal sentiment. We are all humans, but I on my part tried to keep the personal part as much as I was able to in check, while posting here in the public. Let me again repeat my questions and fervently pray to the mighty Gods that they will be answered at least until the coming of Saoshyant - the Great Deliverer or perhaps sooner i. e. the Second Coming our Lord Jesus Christ: QUOTE "From which university and when exactly did D. Verdesi get his doctorate? What was the subject and title of his thesis? What academic area inside anthropology did he do his Ph. D. in? Medical anthropology, cultural anthropology? It's also been stated that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government as far as his forthcoming book is concerned. His masters are mentioned to be respectable members of the community holding official posts. With which branch of the Chinese government does David Verdesi co-operate? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs? What kind of official positions do D. Verdesi's masters hold? And with which institutions? At the new Traditionaltao website it's also being said (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1): "Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China." With which major universities and hospitals in China and the US exactly did David Verdesi do his collaborative research? Where can one access the results of these researches i. e. peer-reviewed journals, etc.?" To the above questions I'd like to add the following: At which university or universities did David Verdesi engage in his undergraduate and postgraduate studies respectively? In which period of time?" END OF QUOTE PLEASE READ CAREFULLY THE FOLLOWING FEW SENTENCES (AGAIN A QUOTE)!!! Finally I'd like to show you how a truly renowned scholar's CV looks like. Did you ever hear of Michael Saso, one of the pioneers in the field of Daoist studies? He is also an ordained Zheng Yi priest and did 10 years of field work in the Taiwanese Daoist community. He speaks fluently Chinese, Japanese and also has mastered classical Chinese. Take a look at his biography at Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Saso . By the way Michael Saso like David Verdesi is an anthropologist. Yet Michael Saso doesn't seem to have any problems with letting people know where he obtained his Ph. D. END OF QUOTE Yours truly retreating again into the background, Gamuret

Pietro, you mean you were not permitted to join the "Foundation-Training"-forum set up by Sean Denty? Did they give you any reasons why your presence was not desired? G.

Pietro, I hope you'll continue posting here and elsewhere. I like the no-nonsense, cut-the-chase style you have. And you try to offer a balanced view - this is the most important.

Thanks for the post, Pietro! It's truly awesome. A well balanced and good written testimony of a person who personally knew David Verdesi. Thank you also for addressing my questions from my private PM to you! You wrote: "I haven't got a clue. IF he did it in Rome, you would have to check with the Universities in ROme. There are 3 of them (La Sapienze, Tor Vergata, Roma 3). You would need to speak italian (no I am not available to do it) and ask at the antropology department. Some departments put on internet some of the people who got their Laurea." Don't worry Pietro. I'm able and and in fact always do my own research. G.

When appearing in public and thereby becoming a public figure making claims of prominence and excellence David Verdesi must reckon with the fact that he will be asked such questions. I truly don't understand why there is so much to hide. I'm not asking any personal questions about his private life, I'm not seeking any secrets of his school or masters, I'm in fact not passing any kind of judgement about him as a person, his tradition, his masters, etc. G.

I don't know why Sean Denty is so silent. Usually he is the first to offer fresh information and occassionally (whenever it is needed, of course) to correct unskillful views as far as his teacher David Verdesi is concerned. As before I wonder why is David Verdesi not referred to as "Dr. David Verdesi" or "David Verdesi, Ph. D." anymore - I mean at the Foundation-forum introductory article and his new website. I hope Sean Denty as most qualified here will be able to offer some answers regarding my questions. I'm pretty sure, that many members of this forum wonder why he has been so silent on this matter. Perhaps we just have to poke at Sean a little bit - like at a sleepy badger to cajole him out of his slumber. I hope my post will fullfill this function. G.

P.S. I just want my questions answered for the clarities sake and not anything else. Since David Verdesi has put his name in the public, making claims with far-reaching implications, the he should expect such questions to be asked. If he would put the names and dates on his webpage, there would be nothing to ask and I wouldn't raise the topic. I simply don't know what is there to hide.

Hi Harry, thanks for your thoughts. But as mentioned in the beginning I wouldn't like the whole discussion to turn too philosophical. Let's just stick to facts. G.

Harry, it's no problem, I can understand the thing regarding your name. You should not feel any need to defend yourself, because it's not about you. You tried to provide some information and I appreciate it. My intention is to find the Truth. I've no ax to grind against Verdesi. I'm not asking about any secrets or anything, but about things that should be freely accessible. Is it not normal for any person to want to verify claims being made? And I'm intersted in claims that can be verified. Therefore I intentionally refrained from making any judgement about D. Verdesi's school, tradition, experiences with his masters, etc. It would be unfair to judge about something in public, that I don't know about. Privately I can have my opinion. But I'm not interested in opinions, but in hard facts. G.

Thanks Adam! Good that you've done this. I'm really interested to see if the archived pages of the Foundation-forum will get blocked on Internet Archive. I also don't understand why they replaced all the "Dr. Verdesi" on their forum by "David Verdesi" overnight. The most basic questions as listed in my 1st post in the beginning still stands. Hopefully somebody will come up with some answers Durkhrod, the text of the three posts is almost the same. The only difference being the use of "Dr." before Verdesi's name in the old version and the absence of it in the recent one. Still, I'd encourage people to take a look at the links themselves that I provided up above.

Thanks Sunshine for providing some tangible data. I can understand about not revealing the name of the professor publicly. It's a project in the making and until it is completed it would be unfair to expect any data or results of the research. The thing is that I'm much more interested in past accomplishments and credentials than projects which are still in the preparation and not finished. When they are finished, let us know were we can see the results - if possible a peer-reviewed journal. I'm interested in hard facts about the claims that are being made about David Verdesi's past academic accomplishments and affiliations. And of course his claims of Chinese government supporting his work. Ditto for his masters. G.

I agree Oolong! We should not jump to any conclusions or be unfair to anyone. The thing is that it's not just the Ph.D. or Dr. or whatever. It's also other claims. I'm not saying that they are false, but I simply don't see any sense in keeping it so vague and this vagueness does make me suspicious. Look, the problem is that high-sounding academic degrees, research history, etc. often convey or at least try to convey credibility to something one's selling and thereby attract more people. I mean, how would you feel as a customer if somebody would write on his website offering his products or services: "Hi, I'm Joe Schmoe, been living for the last 15 years as a bum in New York. Now I've a website, please buy my stuff!" I don't have a problem if people beef up their ads with writting down academic degrees or telling about their research. But then they should do it properly! "Major universities and hospitals in China and US". Which major unversities? Yale? Harvard? Tsinghua? Beijing Daxue? MIT? Hi Franklin! Yes, this is EXACTLY what I mean. YOu got my point. What I also find strange is that the "Foundation Forum"-site was edited yesterday with all "Dr. Verdesi" replaced by David Verdesi. I checked it! I wonder how long will the older version that I quoted be kept freely accessible at the Internet Archive service

P. S. Sunshine at least in one instance your words were misleading. You said: "This 'Dr.' might be considered equivalent to the Phd in some regards but it is not as there is no Phd. as title in Europe as far as I know. P.hd. stands for Philosophiae Doctor but a German doctor of philosphy does not get the title of Phd. in this country." Please consult the Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate. Under the heading Germany, there appears this quote: "Dr. phil. (Doctor philosophiae - most of the humanities)" Please tell me what kind of degree is a German doctor of philosophy awarded with if not a Doctor philosophiae? Isn't philosophy a discpline belonging under the humanities? In what way is then a Philosophiae Doctor different from Doctor philosophiae? If I remember my Latin then what we see here is just the reverse word order. The content though may be different, that is true. Take care, Sunshine! G.

Thanks Sunshine! The introductory part was interesting, but I'm more interested in facts i.e. names of the institutions, exact dates - to sum it up hard facts that can be checked. It's not just about the academic degrees, but also about other claims. I simply cannot understand why things have to be kept so vague. Why is it nowhere mentioned at which university did David Verdesi study? Just look up any CV of any minor public figure or academic. All of them have it written where and when they studied. The next thing that makes me wonder is the one I already mentioned. It's been said on the Verdesi-website (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1) that: "Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China." Which "major universities and hospitals" in China and the US? Harvard? Yale? Tsinghua University? MIT? What kind of "collaborative research"? Where can it be accessed? Was it published in any peer-reviewed journal? Further it's been said that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government. Which parts of it? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs? I'm interested in facts that can bee checked. Then you are saying: "Regarding possible collaborations I can tell your for sure that there is a Professor in Vienna (if I remember correctly) who is planning studies with David and his masters (or one of them). I have been in contact with him (a short email-exchange) and know that he is not a virtual construct." What kind of a professor? A professor engaged in what kind of studies? Physics, chemistry, biology, sociology, history, etc? Is he from the University of Vienna? Which department exactly? How can he be reached? Look, please don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying you're making it up. The problem is that I simply don't understand why one has to be so vague ! G.

P. P. S. One more thing, Pietro. The most interesting part in your past was this: "Yes. It took me some time to realise that I could not use the title Dr unless I had a PhD when I was outside of Italy." So, if D. Verdesi would have been using the title Ph. D. while out of Italy and if he of course didn't write, submit and defend a proper doctoral thesis, then it would be inaccurate. Is this correct? I mean just using the title "Dr." based on his "Laurea" outside of Italy.

Hi Pietro, thank you for clearing up (at least somewhat) the confusion regarding Italian academic degrees! I hope that also some students of David Verdesi will be able to offer answers on this and other relevant questions. The interesting thing though is that David Verdesi has been consistently referred to as a Dr. Verdesi or with a Ph. D. behind his surname. Just to give you some examples: Ian Baker's website http://www.rarejourneys.com/Events.htm A Turkish magazine containing an article of his in Turkish http://ww.astrolojigazetesi.com/cemsen.pdf Although the old Verdesi-website cannot be accessed anymore via the Internet Archive service I was able to digg up the old introduction of his credentials somewhere saying: "BIOGRAPHY David Verdesi (Shen) BC. MT. PhD Born in Rome, David has dedicated his life to the study of human potential, mainly through the Chinese tradition ranging from Shamanism through the main schools of Daoism including recent research in universities and hospitals. Dr Verdesi has spent the last three years travelling around the globe to complete his research in anthropology and comparative religion. David has studied traditional Chinese Qi Gong, Daoism and Shamanism focusing on communication and codification of myth, mysticism and spirituality in the development of this system of knowledge. Such research lead him to study with a number of exponents of traditional Chinese culture and related systems in Asia and South America. Among his main teachers in relation to the Chinese tradition in chronological order." Please pay close attention to the acronyms behind his name i. e. BC. MT. PhD. Would you mind explaining them in the light of academic degrees as used in the Italian educational system? You said you knew D. Verdesi way back when you were both still in Italy. Do you perhaps know which university did he attend? Both for undergraduate as well as postgraduate studies (if he did any)? You also mentioned David Verdesi teaching a course at a Swedish university. Do you perhaps remember the name of it? Finally it is interesting to note that the phrase "Dr. Verdesi" was frequently used in the public introduction of the "Foundation Training"-forum, but this has now been removed over night and there is not even a trace of "Dr. Verdesi" or "David Verdesi Ph. D" (the same goes for his new website). Just to back my claims, please take a look at the following links and see for yourself: This is the new "Foundation Training"-forum public face with Verdesi's resume (edited yesterday) - no trace of Dr. Verdesi: http://foundation73.proboards55.com/index....2483&page=1 This is the "old" version of the same site from February 17 2007 obtained via Internet Archive (hope it'll remain there in the future): http://web.archive.org/web/20070217195845/...2483&page=1 As you can seen "Dr. Verdesi" is used in almost every paragraph. Yet again the version from June 4 2007: http://web.archive.org/web/20070604142352/...2483&page=1 The same thing. You see, the problem is that people have been concentrating too much on the philosophical or spiritual side of the whole affair. These things are most difficult to verify. How can you know for sure if the stories about all these "great" masters are true? You cannot say they are true, neither that they are false, because you were not there. Therefore let people check the things that can be checked (see the questions in my original post) - perhaps with some effort, but still. There's been too much mud-slinging offering ground for spin-doctoring from all accross the spectrum of Verdesi's adherents as well as his detractors. Let's just try to find out the good, plain ol' facts. G. P. S. Pietro, it's been said on the Verdesi-website (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1) that: "Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China." Has it perhaps come to your ears with which "major universities and hospitals" in China and the US D. Verdesi has been doing his "collaborative research"?