Taoist81

But the little that is understandable (without translation) from what you posted appears to be studies on the efficacy of acupuncture (akupunktur), not on a verifiable way to detect and determine the existence of a lifeforce we can call qi. Perhaps reading the full translation will yield more information, but considering the vast majority of the studies out there, including those from china translated to english, it will likely only be another set of studies (possibly with dubious credibility) pointing to the efficacy of acupuncture, not the nature of qi.

Sufism is definitely a beautiful form of Islam. However, Muhammad did his share of blood spilling, so "real" Islam may be a bit harder to difine. It would certainly be nice if Sufism was more prevelant. A friend from Saudi Arabia (a great guy, by the way) described Sufis as "crazy". He seems to be in the majority as far as many of the more powerful muslim nations feel right now. Sufis were only recently allowed to practice openly in Saudi Arabia.

Darren Brown demonstrated his abilities from first behind someone (made her start and stop-to the extent of being unable to move- walking without even touching her) and in complete silence. Then, he put his hand on her back, had her pick a random person on the street and "transmitted" his ability through her to make a stranger on the street who couldn't see them start and stop as she wished. The lady was thoroughly freaked out, and it is likely that few people know how he did it, but he is clear that there is nothing "mystical" or supernatural about it. There is no question that various techniques have been shown to work, we treat patients with great effect at our clinic all the time. Acupuncture has had somewhat well put together studies show its effectiveness, to a lesser extent so have Qigong healers and reiki (although the more efficiently controlled studies usually do not show any higher rates of healing for qigong healers, reiki or prayer). But there is only correlation. None of it can prove causation unless qi can be detected other than "internally". Certainly different acupoints have slightly different electrical charges that can be detected, but, again, these can all be related to physiological systems. There is still no real evidence that qi is anything other than a mental interpretation of a systemic physiological response.

Do you think they would blush or turn green with envy? It really seems that somewhere in the collective unconscious Muhammad, Abraham, Jacob, Jesus, Zoroaster, the first few Dalai Lamas (come on, the current one stopped taking war-money from the CIA a couple years ago) and the rest are sitting there thinking, "damn, I wish we had internal combustion engines and machine guns when I was alive!"

Okay, we can agree that there are fewer people who cultivate than there are who don't. We certainly can't agree that Buddy is stupid, primarily because neither of us know him beyond a few posts on a messageboard, but also because his posts often show much intelligence. All that said, you still never addressed the question at hand. You note that individuals can "feel" or "experience" qi, and most of us here know that that is true, most of us have "felt" "qi". But millions of Mormons "feel" and "experience" the Holy Ghost. Even more Pentecostals "feel" and "experience" the Holy Ghost in a very different and more distinct way. Many guru's (even fraudulent ones) have had their followers "feel" many things. Thousands of Scientologists experience the "effects" of auditing. Ceremonial magicians have felt, heard and seen spirits. Carl Jung saw Philemon on a regular basis, and he "knew" that it was his subconscious. Darren Brown has demonstrated his abilities to cause people to be unable to move without touching them and to change their beliefs back and forth between atheist and theist on demand. Criss Angel walked on water and put his hand through some "volunteer's" chest.... Is it necessary to go on? Our experiences are all subjective, and even moreso when we are dealing with internal or "un-outwardly-detectable" experiences. How do you, or at least how do you suggest we, determine whether these experiences are mental interpretations of biological functions (i.e. your "charisma", at least subconsciously, causes the subject to expect a sensation so they do) vs. an undetectable-other than by internal (mental) means- energy? ...you added this piece after the above was posted: 1. People do "Cold Reading" without realizing it all the time. And Humans tend to remember the "hits" and forget the "misses" so, without going so far as to make any impications on your abilities (as stated above, what is being questioned here is not whether something happens, but rather the nature of the thing happening), many people have "abilities" that they should question. 2. Amen, about proving things on a messageboard. Though, we should likewise not be offended when others question our unprovable claims on the same messageboard The testing should be done, though, double blind and peer reviewable (like the studies our acupuncture college does)

Sure Star, anyone with a "once" (that's an "ounce" right?) of brain and familiar with mathematics would know that inverse proportion exists. While we are on the subject, Inverse Proportion is not necessarily in "all systems", rather it is present in cases when the (2) variables are directly proportional, and in those cases it is a constant. But by calling Buddy a "dimwad" (perhaps you meant "dimwit") you do nothing to address his question/concern. You still provide no evidence, other than your own subjective and suspect experience, that "qi" is inversely proportional to anything. Just making a claim that qi and healing are inversely proportional is just like the new age nuts who claim that "the Secret" is real because they use the words "quantum" and "mechanics" and those are "big words". Randomly grabbing scientific words does not make the subject you are speaking of scientific. As noted in another thread, Darren Brown can do some crazy shit, making people unable to move, or to move as he wishes, making them change their beilefs, etc.. He admits that it is not "magic" or "qi" or anything other than mentalism and psychology, and he actually has science behind him. Do some public, peer-reviewable, double blind studies where the people don't know it is you "qi teasing" them and then you may have a claim to be made. But name calling and unfounded claims only make you sound foolish, you are better than that.

Very true. It is quite sad though, that the "moderate""majority" don't speak up as loudly as the "radicals". With all the riots over cartoons and murders over naked canvases for the Koran, but no riots or even peaceful protests over terrorist bombings. Admittedly, hate and anger have always tended to be more uniting than peace and love. Hence the hate filled speech that has always been spewed right along with "love thy neighbor".

That is true, now. However, had Jews, Christians, even Buddhists had the weapons and jet fuel that modern Islamists have they likely would have done the same. As George Carlin pointed out in his humorous commentary on the Ten Commandments, most religions have never really cared much about their various "Thou shalt not murder" doctrines when it came to people disagreeing with their concept of god or the afterlife. The main difference is that Islam is much younger than the others. The "peaceful" religions have had time to evolve out of their bronze age "morality" despite the fact that it remains in their (at least as far as the bible goes) Holy Books. Add to that a whole lot of oil and....well you have an explosive reinforcement of a persecution complex. None of this justifies the atrocities that have been done in the name of Allah. They are that, atrocities. But the way to fight that is not to scream "To hell with Muslims". Rather it is to treat Islamic countries with respect and firmly hold to the Freedoms that one holds dear. Over time, cultures of more "lenience" dilute the more strict ones as long as the latter does not become the enemy it fights. Sun Tzu had it all those years ago when he said the greatest victories are those attained without fighting. That said, Loose Change and the vast majority of Zeitgeist are Conspiracy nut propaganda. Real scientists, demolition experts and physicists have analyzed the evidence completely separate from the "911 Commission" and found that lacking as the Commission's report may be, the attacks happened as described. Was our gov. caught with its pants down or perhaps even pulling a Pearl Harbor? Maybe, but they weren't the ones that flew the planes. Oswald shot Kennedy, the story of Genesis does not explain the fossil record, nor does "(un)Intelligent Design" and Osama Bin Ladin sent 20 hijackers, of which 19 made it, who flew planes into American targets.

Darren Brown can do some interesting things with his Qi also. He was able to make a person unable to walk without touching them among many other amazing feats....Oh, wait, that's right, he only uses psychology and mentalism, not qi....

No no, please do not allow your skepticism to die! It is in far too short a supply nowadays (as it has commonly been in the past). "Qi's nature" is still debated among many circles (though not usually this group). Many would say that it is "real" because "master so and so made me shake with his qi". Or because "I could feel the qi coursing through me" or...whatever. As you note, albeit indirectly, everything we "experience" is in the mind. An amputee can often "feel" his leg aching even though it was removed years ago. A Pentecostal can "feel" the Holy Ghost overcoming them, and can "feel" the surge of ecstatic energy flowing through a charismatic ministers hands. A Spiritualist's personality is "completely blocked out" by a possessing spirit.... Is any of it "real"? The bottom line, and the only thing that can be demonstrated (at least to some extent) is that there is a phenomenon, that can be experienced that was given the name in China "Qi". When it is experienced it is often felt as flowing through meridians in the body. Usually only after training (and learning the traditional paths of said meridians) is the qi felt as flowing properly. This could lend credence to the idea that you are simply training your mind to behave in a particular way, or to the idea that most people actually have to clear out blockages. Since qi is not detectable (at least not yet) in any way other than personal "feeling" there is no way to prove conclusively either way. When individuals are "thrown" or "moved" by a master's qi it is often only after training with said master (or a similar teacher like one of said master's students) that the novice can even "feel" the master's qi. In other cases it is a particularly charismatic master (either in presence or in actual charisma) and the effect can be interpreted in a similar way as effects during a first visit to a Pentecostal church. Not everyone feels it or experiences it in the same way. Likewise, not all cancers go into remission, while some do spontaneously. Is this qi? Who knows. Again, the bottom line is that there is an experience that is known as qi. Is it an "energy" like electricity, or is it a descriptive term for a properly functioning mind-body connection that our evolution has predisposed our brains to interpret in a particular way? Does it matter? Is anything, the pleasure of sex, the smell of a rose, the wonderful feeling of a cool breeze, happening anywhere other than in your brain? As for healing, there are reaches and limits that some can reach and others can't. That is life. That is something that some call Karma, which is a whole different debate. Just $0.02.

We likely agree on this statement in at least a superficial way. However, you do see the pointlessness of posting a paper referring to the improper practice of Taoism as a religion as some type of evidence, then pointing out that it is not a "religion".

Perhaps all those Chinese Buddhists and any Christian who doesn't speak Aramaic should be cast out as unauthentic as well. Anyone who honestly studies the history of Taoism has to note the flaws in most of the "fluff" pieces (ex. the Tao of Pooh). At the same time one must accept that like all religions/philosophies Taoism is a "living thing" so to speak. They all change and grow and adapt (as noted above) to new people and new environments. Intellectual honesty is an honorable thing, it should be noted that what is commonly called "religious Taoism" is a major part (at the very least) of the history of Taoism. At the same time exluding certain branches, even recently developed ones like the group that calls itself "Western Reform Taoism" leads inevitably to silliness. Should the Tianshi Taoists be considered Taoists over the Lingbao? Lingbao over Zhengyi? Should Catholics be able to say that Protestants are not Christian? What about Protestants saying that Mormons aren't Christians? As Pietro noted above the Zen Buddhists have a different way from Tibetan Buddhists. Perhaps they should not be using that name, Buddhism. While we are on the subject of Buddhism, perhaps we should really get back to the "One True Taoism" and eradicate all the elements that early Taoist priests took from the Buddhists.... No major movement or religion has ever avoided adaptation, with the possible exception of Hinduism which simply embraces it. It is Human Nature, not just evil capitalist Westerners. Every religion/philosophy that exists today has elements pulled from others. What really matters is what happens within a person when they strive towards whatever focus they have. It seems that we would all be better off if we could just drop all of the labels and just seek the Way however we find it. "There are already enough names, one must know when to stop."

Chuang Tzu would likely disagree as well. He liked to tell stories about the benefits of the mangled. Other Taoist stories likewise touted the benefits of disability. Much of the mystique of the full lotus likely comes from the same place that most "orientalism" comes from. After all, zen practitioners favor the zazen pose and they have just as much validity as the yogis (where the full lotus came from) and the sects of Taoism etc that later adopted it (when buddhism invaded). Please keep in mind everyone that the full lotus (despite whatever claims are made about karma) can damage the knees if not done PROPERLY and with care. If there are pre-existing hip or knee problems get help from an experienced (and preferably licensed) professional. Not everyone claiming to be an expert (no matter how "wonderful" their "presence" or "chi" may feel) is trustworthy. Please pay attention to simple physiology.

For those of you who have bought products from Ideagasms, would any of you care to give a break down of the techniques (specifically those on the female orgasm mastery and GTP)? Much of what he has to say (in the newsletter and on the site) rings true but as many have noted he also sometimes seems....off... despite his "heart-centered message". A quick search here revealed discussions of potential purchases for the library, and a bit of debate over the health aspects of female squirting, but nothing on the techniques in the fashion that Trunk has discussed (on his site) the Healing Tao etc. Anyone care to open this discussion? Is any of the IG stuff worth the (soon to be rising) price? Any female insight?

What about when he referred to the Samaritan woman (and by extension her race) as a dog? He said she would be saved but he wouldn't teach her anything because she wasn't a Jew. Jesus never taught anyone who wasn't Jewish, it wasn't until Paul started warping his teachings that anyone who wasn't a Jew could be baptised. The meat thing sounds like horse feces since meat was "acceptable" to all but the Nazarites in Judaism (not to mention the whole "not what goes into a man but what cometh out that defiles him") but Jesus was by no means perfect. Just like all teachers (if he existed) he was human and flawed.

Speaking as an exmormon: That is one of the (few) reasons that Mormonism is so important, it provides an easily discreditable case to study for comparison with other faiths. It is close enough in history that we can see how many myths and legends grow and evolve quickly, with incredible faith behind them. Horny Ole' Joe had miracles and magic stories attributed to him that many Mormons believe (and many have been and would be willing to die for) that can be countered by contemporary writing and science. Many other religions are protected by only the dust of history.....

As you wish, friend, but considering that Occam's razor is based on logic (Occam was a logician after all), and thereby the rules of logic, it seems like a silly claim. Have fun with that.

Unless you are following the rules of logic then your argument runs risk of being built upon a fallacy. Fools, like Intelligent Design supports, built there arguments on fallacies. We can both agree that in all likelihood unicorns do not exist, but because it is a negative proof, we cannot "prove" it. Thus, it is a belief, albeit a very reasonable one, and not a fact. Perhaps it is foolish to continue to try to get people to see the fallacies they are using (this is the second time this has come up just this week), it is simply sad to see individual who do seem to be trying to use logic and reason, defending fallacies as if they would have to admit to some sort of magical thinking just because they can't prove it wrong. Logic and reason deal with what is provable. Thus, to stick to a logical argument, and follow reason, you cannot PROVE a negative. It would be really great if you could us proper quotes so one doesn't have to go through sifting through to see if you added anything. Also, please keep in mind, we do not disagree on your basic idea (and therefore cannot be arguing about it). It is only the fact that you cannot prove it. Did you take time to look into the fallacies?

Let's see if this can be made to make sense without the proper quotes... From the earlier post: "Taoist81:"Buddy, You cannot judge the validity of Sean's school based solely on a video posted on an online messageboard." Buddy:"Moniker guy, I can and do."" And you are welcome to do so, but watching a video that looks like a magic trick hardly gives you enough information to judge the teachings of a particular school. From the earlier post: "Taoist81:"The people you speak of could just as easily be pulling the rug over peoples eyes as could Sean's teachers, or his teachers could be the real deal and your empty flower friends could be the fakes, or they could all be people who have acheived something that most only see in wuxia." Buddy:"C'mon, Martial artists regularly test each other. I've met up with a number of folks on EF and none were but they claimed to be."" Sure, martial artists often compete, one on one, in person. Apparently there is a standing offer for interested parties to come and try it out for themselves. Until that is done, your analogy doesn't work. From the earlier post: "Taoist81:"Personally anyone who claims supernatural abilities is suspect simply because there are so many convincing frauds out there, convincing at least until you see an illusionist demonstrate how a particular trick was done. But, any logical skeptic has to point out that lack of evidence is not evidence of absence," Buddy:"Sorry, this is faulty logic. Everyone dies. Do we need to test everyone to believe this?"" Perhaps you should take a look at a basic level logic textbook. Do humans die? yes. Can we say that there is no such thing as an immortal because we cannot "test everyone"? No. If we made such a claim we would fall victim to the fallacy of negative proof and/or the fallacy of argument from ignorance. Is it likely that immortals exist (this is the part we will likely agree on)? No. Thus far there has been nothing put forward to suggest that anything is immortal. But you simply cannot prove that something does not exist anywhere. That is why we have the Flying Spaghetti Monster (all hail his noodley holiness). Buddy: "I didn't "pick at his teacher". I think this magic stuff is horseshit and has nothing to do with spiritual advancement even if it weren't. That someone promotes it to entice is highly suspect. I merely mentioned of my martial arts friends living in China might be keen on finding out for themselves." Now this (the possibility of horseshit) is where we really agree. Magick has its place in the world, and for all intents and purposes that place is right between the ears of every human being who wishes to experience it. Hence the reason James Randi was brought up earlier. Too often things get passed off as real just because people can't figure out how the trick is done. Irregardless of how much bullshit may be thrown around, if one is using logic or skepticism, on should stick to the rules of logic. The rules of logic state that you cannot prove that something is not, just because there is no evidence that it is. This is the reason that science "does not comment on the supernatural". You can't prove or disprove something that is beyond or greater than the material basis tested in science. Thus "no comment".

Openminded, sure, but the use of occam's razor requires one to look for the simplest explaination. In the case of supernatural phenomenon like transubstatiation, the simplest is trickery, simply because it is more common than "real miracles". Thus, to be truely unbiased, a tester would have to rule out trickery, before declaring a radical reworking of our understanding of the universe. But, yes, open minded would need to be a requirement also. Again, if it is for real, to the extent that Sean speaks of, they wouldn't be able to disprove it no matter how much they "wanted to".

That's not what Sean said though. Sean claims that scientists have already examined the magic sifu water (no disrespect intended, it is only that no name has been given for the "substance") in a mass spectrometer and that David is already arranging for more studies to be undertaken, pending approval from his master. It would be nice to see for ourselves, but most of us have to rely on those more specially trained with access to the proper equipment. Also, again, in regards to testing the masters themselves or observing the feats of magical power, a scientist would not be the best person for the job, unless they were also trained extensively in the arts of sleight and other forms of illusion. The scientists are quite adept for the type of testing that Sean mentioned, that is, testing a previously unknown element. It would be completely falsifiable and nearly impossible to fake, assuming, of course, that multiple un-biased scientists (of the chemistry and physics types) were able to test said element. It would be a major "score" for the mystic/religious world to have a new element or chemical added to our understanding of the world wrought by a Taoist master. Really though, for a scientist or other skeptic tester to stick to the scientific method, their first order of business would be to try to disprove the claims. If they can, it is fake, if it is real they won't be able to disprove it because it would be real.

Buddy, You cannot judge the validity of Sean's school based solely on a video posted on an online messageboard. The people you speak of could just as easily be pulling the rug over peoples eyes as could Sean's teachers, or his teachers could be the real deal and your empty flower friends could be the fakes, or they could all be people who have acheived something that most only see in wuxia. Personally anyone who claims supernatural abilities is suspect simply because there are so many convincing frauds out there, convincing at least until you see an illusionist demonstrate how a particular trick was done. But, any logical skeptic has to point out that lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, so....we'll all just have to see what comes of the research that Sean claims is being undertaken, if, of course, he is telling the truth (he is some guy on a messageboard that few of us have ever met personally, so we can't know for sure if he's honest). Until then there is no need to pick at his teacher, just because someone else hasn't been videoed to expose their potential trickery.

Randi didn't just claim scientists were easy to fool, he proved it by fooling some of them. But really that is beside the point, you are right, most of the people who tried out for the "Challenge" have been half wits. And, just for the record, he never claimed to be a scientist, only an illusionist and a skeptic. He does employ/work with scientists though. Anyway, on to the more interesting stuff... So, the plan is to have the findings published? That would really be an amazing thing. It may be an afterthought for you, but really it would inspire many people, if the findings could be reproduced in multiple settings. Either way, please keep us posted on this will you?

Without commenting AT ALL on the truth or fiction of these guys abilities, it is worth pointing out that "scientists" are not trained to "look for tricks". James Randi, a man whom you yourself described as a bottom feeding illusionist (i.e. not a very good one) was able to set up scientists investigating "psi" abilities. He and his cohorts were able to convince scientists that what they were seeing and testing was real, only to later demonstrate how it was done. Again, this is not meant to comment in anyway on your particular school, so there is no need to get all worked up about it. It is only to say that in some circumstances it would be better to have well trained illusionists test or observe "superpowered" individuals instead of scientists. On another note, in regards to your claim from before that some scientists had submitted a master's superwater to a mass spectrometer, do you have any references to this? It would be incredibly interesting to read about. It isn't everyday that new elements are discovered. That would really cause a stir in the scientific community since it would be clearly falsifiable and would be the first real demonstrable evidence of a type of supernatural ability.

Thelema Press has nothing to do with the OTO. This is a whole different monster : ) OTO uses orgasm and ejaculation in ritual. This group avoids orgasm entirely. As for sex and enlightenment, well, to each his own.