stan herman

ChiDragon, do you think if Lao Tzu was writing (or dictating) the Tao in China today he would say the same things the same way?

Hmm do we ride Wu wei, or does Wu wei ride us? Is the true sage the master or the ox?

Absolutely!! And, if you play your cards right you can pick up a number of tricks along the way that work both in getting you more wins in the human game and at the same time make it easier to transfer to the big one when you feel like it.

A minimally esoteric answer: Wu wei is an important concept of the Tao, that involves knowing when to act and when not to act. Wu Wei also means natural action--not forced or deviant--flowing from innate energy. For the individual it would be a normal aspect of his/her behavioral repertoire. It would be 'spontaneous', not analytically deliberated. What is important to recognize however, is that doing the natural thing is not the same for everyone. Just as, while it's natural for snow to fall in Scandinavia, it's natural for it not to fall in Central Africa. And, even while it is natural for snow to fall in Scandinavia, heavier snow falls are more natural in some areas than in others, and heavier snow falls occur naturally in some years than in others. So, it seems to me that when we speak of what is natural we are speaking not of a single, static position, but of a continuum reflecting both situation and time. And we see that what is natural is not a single thing but rather a wide variety of things. What is natural action for human beings also varies widely. In speaking of Wu wei this fact is frequently missed by many commentators. And so when observing human action that is swift, decisive and aggressive they automatically label it as a violation of Wu wei, and it may not be.

Coincidentally, I just posted a somewhat different point of view in "Tao Now". To me what Wu-wei is saying is not 'do nothing'--leave it all to the Tao. Rather each of us and our Tao are in partnership in the march of events. Just as we are not an element separated from God (or 'the Big System', if you prefer), but an integrated force in the matrix of existence.

I agree, it takes a mix of traditions to expand and extend one's perspectives. I especially like the observation that God and We contain each other.

Yes indeed, Marblehead. My favorite way of saying it: "All truths are contingent upon context and consciousness" Ultimate truth is unsayable.

Right. Here's a thing to consider; one can choose to become immersed in the questions of whether or not to BELIEVE a particular theory or idea (good for some purposes) Or one may suspend (put aside) both belief and disbelief and allow experience to bring its own answer (better for other purposes).

Here's a simple one, useful for every-day interactions when you're going into a situation that makes you nervous. 1 sit in an un-upholstered chair--your back straight but not stiff, feet on the floor, arms in your lap 2 Breathe and let go of any thoughts that float into your mind--let them pass like logs floating down a river. 3 Place your attention in the bottoms of your feet--actually feel them against the floor, determine if there are any tensions in your feet, if so, intensify them (not to the point of cramping), then when you're ready let them go. 4 Follow the same process (in #3) with your ankles and lower legs, then your knees and thighs, then your buttocks against the chair.. 5 Gradually work your way up your whole body to the top of your skull and your brain within. 6 When your done, say out loud, "HERE I AM". Repeat it a few times and realize it's a fact -- (i.e. you are not in other people's ideas about you)

Yes indeed--many, many views not only between the traditions, but even within each tradition. If you study them all closely and then try to come to a conclusion through reasoning, the confusion will be frustrating. That's why many people believe they need a guru/teacher to tell them what to believe. But then, eventually you will be pushed down an inappropriate path, or you will discover your teacher's feet of clay. What to do? What to do? Don't worry about it

Re Tao Verse 3 Leadership is a central topic of the Tao. Though, as I mentioned earlier, "leadership" in the time of Lao Tzu (variously estimated from the 100s to 600s BC) was a far different dynamic than it is today, there are still guidelines within its 'instructions' that are worth our consideration. They do however, require a more contemporary interpretation. The following verse 3 seems to me a relevant interpretation for our time. Compare it with a more traditional translation. 3. It is better not to overpraise people for capable performance, but rather to think of capable performance as nothing special. Whether as a parent or leader, encouraging others to compete for your favorable recognition is a limiting tactic. It is best for a parent or a leader to provide an environment that allows people to do what they are best able to do in the best ways they can, and to help excellence become natural. A sound leader concentrates on producing what is required, simplifying issues, providing well, but not overwell, for her people, and clearing their minds of prejudices and old habits that are not useful. The best leaders and parents perform these functions in an entertaining rather than a solemn way.

Not clear to me if this is a put-on or not?? As for the request for reassuring words, there are these: You are not unique in your travails including desperation and thoughts of suicide, Also the impression-feeling I got from reading your specifics sound quite encouraging--relevant dilemmas, doubts, healthy discarding of intellectual analysis (those who talk ABOUT it, but avoid the experience like the plague. Keep on keepin' on bro, there's a pony out there for you somewherehttp://www.thetaobums.com/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif Now, as for the advice: Get into the maya. It may be illusion, but it's YOUR illusion, so don't dis it. As for the pain, yeah it always happens for the dedicated ones, not much for the ones who like to play with the ideas only. There are ways of mitigating the pain and using it. People here can probably share some of their ideas with you.

41. Some people perceive the way at once and join it. Some others glimpse its direction and discuss it in admiring words. But, like they would a dazzling panther, keep their distance from it. And some people ridicule the way with great enthusiasm. If the way were not embraced by some avoided by some and laughed at by some it would not be itself. Those who laugh at the way can list its faults: Pointless, of no practical use, not for these times or cultures. For those who laugh, what is important is what can be counted. The core of life is of no concern. Acquisition is the focus of existence. Complexity is a fascination. And man's doings are all that can be discerned. But eternity is for claim by the one who opens to know the whole. Strength and endurance are his who can feel the core of life. Skill is his who can go straight to the simple center. And laughter is his who can hear the greatest joke.

"When nothing is done, nothing is left undone." Whew, it's like housework, you can never catch up

ev'rybody gotta do what ev'rybody gotta do

om

Sounds to me you're doing good. Whenever you can, take it easy on yourself. When you can't manage that, just do what you have to and notice yourself doing it--don't analyze it. Something said to me a while back was, "everybody's got these karmic seeds to burn before they get free, so just go ahead and burn them, one by one, until you're done." Good luck.

An other version 41. Some people perceive the way at once and join it. Some others glimpse its direction and discuss it in admiring words. But, like they would a dazzling panther, keep their distance from it. And some people ridicule the way with great enthusiasm. If the way were not embraced by some avoided by some and laughed at by some it would not be itself. Those who laugh at the way can list its faults: Pointless, of no practical use, not for these times or cultures. For those who laugh, What is important is what can be counted. The core of life is of no concern. Acquisition is the focus of existence. Complexity is a fascination. And man's doings are all that can be discerned. But eternity is for claim by the one who opens to know the whole. Strength and endurance are his who can feel the core of life. Skill is his who can go straight to the simple center. And laughter is his who can hear the greatest joke.

Chi, yes it is interpretation. My understanding is that all translations of the characters are interpretive to some degree. When you explain this as a difference in Eastern vs Western philosophy, I wonder if that rests more on the differences in era than region? If one considers what is happening in China today--at the ruling level and trends among the rising middle class--there is great discomfort among the former, as the latter grow increasingly discontent with the totalitarian requirements on them for unquestioning subservience (see lines 2 - 12).

Yes, if one's quest is truly for enlightenment (rather than to be a better person and/or make a better world) then here is the key--as an old monk said, "Practice, Practice, Practice". Clear the mind, minimize the moralizing and interpreting, and allow...

I like the 'terseness'. At the same time this is not one of my favorite verses. It seems to me so totally out of touch with our era. Here's an other version I find more applicable. Just a matter of taste and opinion, I suppose. 3. It is better not to overpraise people for capable performance, but rather to think of capable performance as nothing special. Whether as a parent or leader, encouraging others to compete for your favorable recognition is a limiting tactic. It is best for a parent or a leader to provide an environment that allows people to do what they are best able to do in the best ways they can, and to help excellence become natural. A sound leader concentrates on producing what is required, simplifying issues, providing well, but not overwell, for her people, and clearing their minds of prejudices and old habits that are not useful. The best leaders and parents perform these functions in an entertaining rather than a solemn way.

Just ran across this old post but it tickled me. Say Manitou, do you think that grey day in Ohio was because of the positions of clouds and wind, or is that just victimhood as an art form?