sunshine

Spectrum: I hope you will read it and tell us. I was quoting you.... though I have an idea it might be far from what you mean... Harry

Wasn't my intent for sure Thank you Pat, for giving your thoughts on the subject. I have been through the issue of "faith" many times and have lost the "blind faith" aspect on the road... by the way: I am pretty thankful for these experiences as they helped me become clearly more free! Your thoughts on Catholicism resonant very true with me. To me the trouble is when people start to believe they just need to invest time for asking for absolution, without the need for having to work on themselves. This has nothing to do with money though... I am not sure if I get you right here: do you say that if I sit down long enough and look into myself I will arrive at the core of the truth? If you say that the question is to ask: what if I look the wrong way? Isn't that what a teacher is for? To offer you a way for reaching a destination others already reached long before you yourself, so that by their effort you now have the possibility to follow their steps to arrive more quickly? Recently I was asked by another member what more there can be than reaching "peace of mind". I have no idea, but I assume that peace of mind is not the end of the road... No doubt. And if I get it right many teachers actually will say that attaining peace of mind is one of the necessary and most basic steps for further attainment... appreaciate your reflections on the topic and "Pero": I am not yet fully sure... Harry

Okay. This one I can't resist: even for this EFT might prove the perfect tool to help people relax and really enjoy the party... or just happily get off the scene because they are simply not interested

This is neither for or against anyone but a general statement: whoever hasn't heard of EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) and the like yet, attention please: there is one basic axiom that tends to hold true most of the time: What you resist persists !!! and if this is not helpful enough: what you respond to has no reason not to respond back... echo-effect... helpful? hope so with smiles as always Harry hehe. Two souls same thought at the same time...

I just wonder if, from all that "happened" so far, one wouldn't have to actually make it a point that in order to post any information by David one would have to first ask him for approval to do so??? Harry

You sure already know that I allow myself the freedom to sometimes be silly on purpose in order to get an idea across. I am honestly curious what David will think of it. Not that we have to start all this deleting of messages all over again...

And this is no sharing of information he shouldn't?

It's not about philosophy but about experience! AND: a healthy body does not guarantee you a healthy mind!

Hey Yoda. Why you make a general statement about all of taobums? There are people here that absolutely are capable of keeping appropriate levels of respect!!! just felt like pointing it out but hey. Nobody has been listening to me through all these threads Harry

Although it is not ONE specific information: this got posted in Yudeloves welcome section: >>Here's something for your shrink; my ego was crushed, demolished and disintegrated.<< >Ah, well however it happened, that's the same end result I was guessing. Not a fun process, but we all learn best the hard way... Want to be taught empathy? Be made weak. Want to be taught compassion? Be made persecuted. Want to be taught less egoness? Have your life fall apart.< If I wake up one day and still remember the learned lesson that made me become a more refined being that'd be great

guys, girls, guys... all these threads and talks from the point of view of an "outsider" make one thing clear in a most fascinating way: that each of us tends to be able only to look so far as his own neurology is set up to allow. Many statements made, but answers tend to stick only to one or two completely ignoring the other, which in itself can not be understood without all else... arguments often seem to be given from not an emphatic position (being able to take the viewpoint of the other) but from a narrow-(not to say narrow-minded) point of view... further: discussions of that kind make clear why the world is so fu...ed up. Basic level of understanding can not be achieved with a neurological structure that is tight in those narrow ways and not fluid enough to evolve... luckily battles of that kind tend to allow each of ours neural connectivities to grow and change, even if it takes a long long time...

I won't argue about whether what "was done" was wrong or right... but the above statement is an interesting one: maybe one should just stay in line with the tradition one was taught in? that way one does not have to compare the two and try to find and answer to wrong and right... Harry

Yep. Get these Sonnets... not just as a support for the brave man who wrote it but for the value it gives you in its own sense. Harry

If I might chime in on the price issue, as it is discussed anyway: it is not for Americans alone... and as I already mentioned: it is an intro cost to Denmark training and if one rearrives next year to continue training then one gets the Danish discount. If nothing changes after David talks to Jette than this is as it is. with smiles Harry

Easy to answer. There is a Foundation training forum brought into life by SeanD. The cost requirements are discussed there... with smiles Harry

Some good points... but it seems to be a little different. Actually the intro-cost for one week Denmark is 1000 Euros/per week... the amount mentioned by you then seems to be applied if you repeat training next year... the amount for China, according to David, is based on the master's wishes and, as it seems, includes meeting a master and maybe even get worked on by him... and maybe a few other things...

One thing is for sure... it would pretty clearly show all other students how far they are in their development to emotionally handle that another got it for free, them not.

T. We can go arguing about it which is not my main intent. You offered your opinion that David should be the one offering someone to take part in the training for free. I don't think he "should" and what you say about the possible benefits this might have, in no way might be what David is interested in (I say "might", as I have no clue). And well. I am quite familar with the idea of "marginal costs"... but I tell you. In order to become a qualified acupuncturist I have payed many thousands... aside from travelling costs, time envolement etc. etc. etc. An in order to stay be top of the line training does not finish... and I continue to spend thousands to continue. Allow me to conclude that these are no marginal costs at all: and I assume (and I have my reasons to assume) that David had to face and faces similar issues... I allow myself to be silly from time to time in order to bring across an idea. See above! I could name you a reason or two or maybe more aside from the money-issue... but again: as I have no clue what is in David's mind I better refrain. And then: there are many who charge and the costs for the Denmark training, just to get back to this, are in no way much more epensive then many other trainings. I tend to pay about 200 to 300 Euros for 10 hours acupuncture training. That means 20 to 30 Euros an hour. The training is 5 hours a day for 7 days... see what I mean... Yep. Some do. But to conclude that one simply can expect them to do it... well... That might be true if you had to establish yourself... I do not see the prove for that in this case! Just because a majority believes something does not necessarily make it right... while I sure claim not it to be wrong... again: why do you assume he needs to boost his reputation ? Yes. Many are curious and some already go to see for themselves... without being payed to do so... Harry

By the way. If you are interested in where the foundation training actually leads and if it is a congruent experience, then take the 10000 and help 2 to 3 genuinely interested to get to the Denmark training. Then you'd get cross-reference

Cameron. I have tried to follow the forum from its start as good as I could... so if nothing changed so far the requirements are as is. Foundation: first 4 monthes celibacy! Afterwards it is different if all goes fine... no mixture of techniques if not approved by David himself! Further: 3 hours a day is required minimum during foundation! with smiles Harry

Possible requirements for the candidate to go to be sure about in order not to have to ask for a money back guarantee : a) already able to do 3-4 hours practice each and every day (and actually doing it!) b)absolutely willing to give up all former practice so far, be it for 3 years or just one year... (I assume Sean can give an idea what might be the minimum requirement for proper evaluation of the training) and stay committed to just this one practice for the time being c) willing to stay celibate for at least 4 monthes (probably for some of us less difficult than the above requirements) d) emotionally stable enough to not break under the "heavy weight" of responsibility if taking this offer (maybe this requirement can be omitted) e) truly an open mind I am sure there are some more... Now girls and guys: if you think you truly fulfill these requirements then raise your hands...

.... double post...

>If you want to take up the issue of needing proof of the legitimacy of the practices then consult Cameron, as he is seeking proof.< There are many seeking the proof and go for it... >However, for me, if a taobum went and practiced the LSD methods per David Shen's instructions and reported back that would add a level of legitimacy that I, and perhaps this is a personal failing, can not get by reading internet message boards. Lets face it, is there any evidence outside of message boards for anyone to rely on?< No. There is not. >>He Has knowedge<< >I suppose you have studied with him? I am unaware of your basis for this conclusion.< No. I haven't studied with him (yet). But his answers to questions are those of an intellectually well developed man who knows what he is talking about. There is about no "babbling" found in his messages... most often clear, precise and straight to the point. Could he be deceiving due to his intellecutal capability? Sure, he could... but it is up to each of us to decide if we want to prove it for ourselves or not! I just want to add: he has replied to questions of mine in the past with a great kind of kindness, humility and sincerity and in an appreciable no-nonsense manner! >>Why does he give it to anyone who has the cash for it? I don't know. Many people believe that spiritual teachings should be given away for free. dhamma.org is an example of that in action.<< That is one way of belief. There are therapists out there who charge a little and have trouble to live and others who charge a lot and live better... I won't judge... >>Further, are you proposing that I believe that I have a right to get everything just as is? If this is some sort of an accusation, I am happy to respond, but I need you to clarify what having "the right to get everything just as is" means.<< I am not very good at accusing people because I am too much aware of my own drawbacks and flaws. But the way you put it was like: "Hey. You guys of Mercedes want to make me believe that your car is the best in the world. Give me one for free and later on I will tell people about it.".... not quite the way it works... >>Again, I must make the assumption that you know David in some personal manner to be able to assert that you know that he does not want to make money with it.<< I tell you something from my own little point of view: Those one believes to know most about not seldom prove to be those one knew most little about. I am not able to answer the question of what the money is for. And in all honesty: it is not my business. But if you want to talk about money let us get things straight: you get what you get in Denmark as well. 1000 Euro one week training 5 hours a day. Is that really that much more than others charge and so far out to just because of that doubt sincerity? >>Further, in my post I mentioned that the rewards that could be reaped would be not only monetary, but his system would get a serious boost in legitimacy. Surely, anyone wishing to establish themselves or their methods as legitimate would want this.<< Just not of your opinion here... >>From what I've read David is looking to get approval to teach the LSD methods to a wider audience. Establishing a reputation as a legitimate school or method of spiritual cultivation is key to this. Having someone from the taobums take his class may expedite this process.<< He is already on the way of teaching to a larger audience... there are quite a few on their way to China and others on their way to Denmark... and in all honesty: I very much assume David does not need to rely on a Taobumsler to legitimate him... with smiles Harry