ChiDragon

Thank for your clear understanding. "Deep and divine" are only adjectives to modify De. Even though we say "divine" but it still doesn't make De before Tao because the "Divine De" is only a description for the virtue of Tao. Thus the De in "Divine De" is not at the same level nor in the same category as Tao. The mentioned tile on the other thread was not very distinctive, by first glance, to know it is the "Divine De" rather than the human De.

Stosh..... Have you ever gone deep into reading the Tao Te Ching yourself; besides reading the various translations and form your own generalization(may not be a proper word for you.. )...??? PS.... We had a thorough discussions about all your doubts in the Tao Te Ching section. This thread is assuming that someone has been following the discussions in the past. I respectfully request not to repeat the lengthy discussions here again.

There was a question about 玄德 some place in the forum. 10.道生之， 11.德畜之。 12.長之育之。 13.亭之毒之。 14.養之覆之。 15.生而不有， 16.為而不恃， 17.長而不宰。 18.是謂玄德。 10.Tao engenders it, 11.Te rears it. 12.Grow it and nourish it, 13.Let it grow to maturity, 14.To foster it and protect it. 15.Produce it but not possessing it. 16. Flourishing it but not being vainglorious. 17.Raise it but not controlling it, 18.It was called the abyssal virtue(玄德). To my understanding, one may take it as an opinion, 玄德 in line 18 is the same 德 in line 11. From lines 12 thru 17 are the finest quality of Tao. These qualities were referred as the virtue of Tao. The virtue of Tao was even embellished as 玄德. 玄德 means the deepest or divine virtue of Tao.

道 is Tao. It is not just only a path but Tao can be translated as "path". Path is just a very narrow definition of Tao. Thanks to English, we can spell Tao and tao to distinguish the two. Unfortunately, one has to grok its meaning from the context in the classic. So, when I said "classic", the reader has to grok its meaning as the "ancient Chinese writing". "Tao" is proper noun. "tao" can be a path or a principle. If Tao is spontaneous, then Tao is not path. However, Tao has a path for all things to follow. A path is always visible. There was no need to grok its quale. Only Tao can be visible or invisible because Tao is not a path. Tao becomes visible only by the manifestation of the existence of all things. The existence of all things was to manifest that Tao is there but hidden with a high potential power to create. Tao has to be manifested to reveal her existence, at first, in order for her to be invisible. Thus that is why we have to grok its quale when Tao is not visible.

恒無,欲以觀其妙. Whenever Tao is invisible, grok its quale. Whenever Tao is visible, observe its boundary. 恒有,欲以觀其徼.

大道自然 萬物隨緣 The great Tao is Spontaneous Let all things follow her path

Let Nature take its course.

A Taoist is the one that follows the basic principles of Wu Wei.

Let Nature take its course.

Let Nature take its course.

You welcome again. Yes, indeed, willing to share perspectives is always nice to start fresh with an open mind for exchanging new ideas/concepts. Now, it is time for me to thank you for participating in the discussion. You really helped to let Wu Wei took its course. Honestly, I couldn't do it alone. Let's hope we can do something like this, again, in the near future. Best regards, CD

Let Nature take its course.

Yes, Jeff. It is definitely could.

Hi Jeff.... Thank you again. You are a gentleman and a scholar. The above statement was not making a judgement but presupposing and implying something. Yes, it was aiming at the definition of what is a Taoist as I have stated: " the definition of a Taoist is one who follows the principle of Wu Wei." My intent for this thread was not to ask a question, or share an opinion/judgement but to suggest that the forum should be considered, at least, try to follow the principle of Wu Wei such as "do nothing adversely". This is only my wish but not to be insisted. Thanks, I am glad to stay to meet some more friends and foes.......

Why? A merit was given to someone who executes the principle of Tao which is called Te(德), so to speak. If there was no Tao, then there was no principle of Tao to follow. Thus there would be no Te.

Yes, Wu Wei could also mean "accept it as it is" as being natural or let Nature take its course. However, Lao Tze likes to put his thoughts in a negative sense to make it positive. Yes, as you said, Lao Tze is a sage. He knows what is an "adverse effect" that could backfire. That is why Wu Wei was interpreted as "do nothing adversely". Here are some examples of the application of Wu Wei and back fired. IMO Example #1 Sometime ago, there were quite a few members got suspended. As far as I know, two of them were suspended for 14 days and one was only three days. Your truly was on the 14 days list. Aftermath, one member was very disappointed and decided not to post anymore. Since then, I don't see his posts anymore. Some might just left and never came back. Thus this is the adverse effect resulted from the action taken by TTB forum. This is the case that TTB did not follow the principle of Wu Wei with the definition as "do nothing adversely". Example #2 As you said, Jeff, yours truly took the punishment with the definition of Wu Wei as "accept it as it is" for fourteen days. Came back and pretended nothing had happened and continues participating in the forum activity. Example #3 As I was under constant attack with some sarcastic remarks by other members. I "accept it as it is" with the definition of Wu Wei as "do nothing adversely". As you said, Jeff, "To me, the world (and the Forum) does not define a Taoist, it is how one responds to it." I will accept it as it is. However, if one claim oneself as a Taoist, then a Taoist is obligated to follow at least one basic principle which is Wu Wei. Hence, the definition of a Taoist is one who follows the principle of Wu Wei. Here is my advice to TTB; in order to encourage the members to stay in a restrain-free and a Taoist environment, it would be advantageous, at least, to follow the principle of Wu Wei. Sorry to say, I still am observing a member of the MODS making some undesirable remarks in the regular discussion session. So, let it be.

No, no, no. Jeff, I am not attempting to make a judgement about the forum members but the TTB. Is that OK with you.....??? I just want to thank you for the kind words. Please do not misunderstand me. I am sorry that I mixed the two things here. Btw You have some very good questions that I want to address, here, in my next post I will show the applications of Wu Wei. Thanks...!!!

mjjbecker... Thank you. I know what it is and not asking for new references. I will continue to express myself to make my point. Please be Wu Wei; and give me a chance to continue after I go make some coffee.

I am sorry, you did specify "I've no intention of going into who is right or wrong or whatever" We don't need a debate in this manner. We are only saying it is not what it seems to be. It was as simple as that. I know it is frustrating, sometimes, when people do have different views but have to come out.

Hi Jeff.... You welcome and thank you the kind words. I, also, would like to thank those who complimented and do appreciate my presence here through PM in the past. I originally joined TTB was the impression of the site gave me. It seems very legitimate and welcoming. It gives me a sense of a true Taoist environment. Even thought it seems like what it is but it is not what it is as I would like it to be. ************************************************************************************************************************* This is only my understanding and opinion which I am abide to in the application of Wu Wei for my self cultivation. I am not attempting to make a judgment on any member of this forum. If you read the title of the thread, it should be self explanatory. You see, most people who study the TTC did not grasp the most basic fundamental principle which is Wu Wei(無為). For easy understanding, we can translate it as "do nothing adversely". What it is really saying was not to do anything which would cause an adverse effect and back fired. This is what this thread is all about. The question in my mind is does TTB follow this principle as a Taoist website......??? If not, I think it should consider it in the near future or it might have followed already. I hope...!!!

健身十六式 By the given title, it is only an invigorated exercise for the body. It is not any special Neigong method.

Let Nature take its course.

Yes, I am meditating on top of the hill and expecting the rain to be fallen on my head. Expecting something to be a certain way is different from making something to be a certain way intentionally.

Let Nature take its course.