ChiDragon

I gave you the Chinese source for long and short Jin. How about give me your English source of both Jins?

What is short Jin(短勁)? https://www.google.com/search?q=什么是太極短勁%3F&sca_esv=dcc0ce3d0aae17fc&ei=QgfeaKKxEdWhiLMP25CH8Ao&ved=0ahUKEwii2oyS3oSQAxXVEGIAHVvIAa4Q4dUDCBA&oq=什么是太極短勁%3F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFuS7gOS5iOaYr-WkqualteefreWLgT8yCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wUyCBAAGIAEGKIESL7yAVDiJVi_ywFwBHgAkAEBmAGwBaABkQ-qAQcyLTUuNS0xuAEMyAEA-AEBmAIJoALLDcICCxAAGIAEGLADGKIEwgIIEAAYsAMY7wWYAwCIBgGQBgWSBwk0LjAuNC41LTGgB9gJsgcHMi00LjUtMbgHqQ3CBwcwLjEuNy4xyAcs&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

What is long Jin(長勁)? https://www.google.com/search?q=什么是太極長勁%3F&sca_esv=dcc0ce3d0aae17fc&ei=4gXeaN7TB72bwbkPjJzR4AY&ved=0ahUKEwjezJbq3ISQAxW9TTABHQxOFGwQ4dUDCBA&oq=什么是太極長勁%3F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFuS7gOS5iOaYr-WkqualtemVt-WLgT8yCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMggQABiABBiiBEiysgFQuiFY235wAngBkAEBmAHdCKAB4SKqAQ0yLTQuMC4xLjAuMi4xuAEMyAEA-AEBmAIHoALxEMICChAAGLADGNYEGEeYAwCIBgGQBgqSBw0yLjAuMy4wLjEuMC4xoAevE7IHCzItMy4wLjEuMC4xuAfgEMIHBzAuMS41LjHIByk&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Hmmmm.....Really?

IMMHO It seems to me it was the duration of Fajin. It depends how long did it take for each method of Fajin. One can continuously applying Jin or Fajin by pushing the opponent moving backward for a long time. I would consider a short Jin was just to neutralize the opponent with one short move then stop.

Hehe, you seems to have a good grasp on Fajin. However, you put in an indirect way. You are treating the method of Fajin as a noun. What you really saying was: A master will apply the right method to Fajin when an opportunity allows in a particular situation. The eight methods of Fajin using different parts of the body indicated as follows: 1. 掤(peng) : Using one forearm sideways to push out and upward 2. 捋(lu) : Using the palms moving laterally 3. 挤(ji) : Using the back of the hands pushing forward 4. 按(an) : Using both the palms and arms in the up position with the upper torso moving forward, using the waist as leverage. 5. 采(ca) : Using the fingers holding the wrist and the elbow of the opponent moving downward. 6. 挒(lie) : Using both forearms to blocking the incoming force. 7. 肘(zhou) : Using the elbow to push the opponent when close in contact 8. 靠(kao) : Using the shoulder to push the opponent away Please note: The most effective way to Fajin is by turning the waist, at the same time, during the execution of these eight methods. https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1tmm9Y4E4g/?spm_id_from=888.80997.embed_other.whitelist&t=17.474235&bvid=BV1tmm9Y4E4g

Jin is an interesting subject to investigate. The more we discuss about Jin the more we will understand what it is. IMMHO Jin by itself, in a Taiji body, is not an explosive force. It is only a potential energy that is ready to be issued by Fajin. Jin is not an explosive force, yet, until it was issued by the practitioner. The powerful Fajin force is very deadly if someone cannot withstand the impact of contact.In regard to the different types of Jin, they are really, only, describing the methods of Fajin. There are 8 types of Fajin methods are well known and recognized by Taiji practitioners. They are 掤劲、捋劲、挤劲、按劲、采劲 、 挒劲、肘劲、靠劲.

Yes, Jin is an interesting subject to investigate. The more we discuss about Jin the more we will understand what it is. IMMHO Jin by itself, in a Taiji body, is not an explosive force. It is only a potential energy that is ready to be issued by Fajin. Jin is not an explosive force, yet, until it was issued by the practitioner. The powerful Fajin force is very deadly if someone cannot withstand the impact of contact. In regard to the different types of Jin, the 40 descriptions of Jin above are not really Jin themselves. Like I said they are only descriptions. They are really, only, describing the methods of Fajin. There are 8 types of Fajin methods are well known and recognized by Taiji practitioners. They are 掤劲、捋劲、挤劲、按劲、采劲 、 挒劲、肘劲、靠劲. All the rest, I think, they are probably using the idea of Fajin borrowed from the Taiji practitioners by other martial artists. Anyway, this is only my understanding for now.

In Taiji, it is very common for the advance practitioners to do push hand. Why only the advance practitioners can do push hand? Well, it is because beginners have not conditioned their bodies with enough jin(勁) to do the performance. It needs diligent practice day-by-day, month-by-month, and year-by-year to develop the jin in the body. In order to do so, Taiji practice must be done with the following conditions to be effective: Coordinate the movements with breathing and coordinate breathing with the movements. First of all, I had seen westerners practiced push hand by pushing each other very hard. I have a notion that they had misinterpret the word "push" in push hand. However, that is all wrong. That is not how Taiji practitioners do push hand. It should begin with "touch and follow" manner. One hand of each partner should be just barely touch each other and moving the hands back and forth without exerting a tremendous force. The touching hands of the partners should be moving back and forth in one direction. In other words, it is a push-pull motion which has the yin-yang effect. One moves forward(not push with force) while the other moves backward repeatedly. The idea was to feel or sense the force when it was exerted by the partner. The method was called "Ting Jin," listening to the force. The time to fajin is when you sensed a slight pushing force against your hand from the partner. When this happens, you pull and guide the partner's hand away from your body. Let the partner moving along in the direction of the moving force. This is called "took advantage of the opposing force to counterattack." I don't know did I say that right? Perhaps someone can put it in better English for me!

Yes, push-hand is only a practice to learn to control one's body strength which was known as Jin(勁). However, in the other hand, one blow with Fajin on the chest can stop someone's heartbeat. That is how powerful Jin was. PS The powerful Jin, explosive force, is the defensive feature of Taiji to disable the opponent in combat.

@FluffyGuardian I think this says all about Sanshou and MMA. I do not wish to go any further to argue about semantics and translations.Thanks! HAHA..... You may laugh all you want. Whatever I had said still stands.

I guess you still not have a good grasp on Tuishou. Tuishou is two people touching each other, and tries to feel a resisting force from one another. As soon the resisting force was detected from one, the other will perform fajin and give it a big push. Hence, that is the only time one is doing the pushing. However, when they are touching each other, the touching force should be slightly but not pushing hard. In conclusion, in Tuishou, it wasn't not to push at all. Rather, one must know when to do the pushing.

There are too many videos out there showing the improper way of doing Tuishou. So, this is the best demonstration I have seen so far. Please notice the softness in the arms of the practitioners at 0.57. That is the proper way how to do Tuishou.

I believe that Sanshou(散手) was translated or understood as MMA in English. One should not try to translate the compound characters word for word. There is a thought behind each compound character. If each character was translated, then, the idea behind the term will be lost in the translation.

Well, there is no need to spell out everything. The first mistake he made by pushing too hard is enough to make it invalid. He violated the basic rule of push-hand. Leaning forward causing the body to cross the centerline was understood is a no no.

OKay, you meant 不發. So, it is.

FYI We are not looking at the different styles. The emphasis should be the technique. The guy at the left is pushing too hard with the lack of softness. That was why his opponent took advantage of him by twisting his arm with fajin.

散手”（也称“散打”），在现代语境下，是指一种以中国武术为基础，融合了踢、打、摔等攻防技法的徒手格斗技击项目。 Is this what you mean?

Just want to distinguish the difference between Tuishou(推手)and Sanshou(散手). In general, Tuishou involves contact the hands with a slight touch. Sanshou is MMA that involves striking, kicking, and flipping.

Yes, it is very important. Bu Fa(步法) is every step you took that should and will keep one in a most stable position to maintain body balance.

Let's keep in mind. Before we jump into combat, we must know what is the purpose of practicing Tuishou. The prerequisite is to develop the jin in the body in the first place. How can one fajin without conditioning the body first? Why do people practice Taiji day by day? One will notice the difference in the body strength from years of practice. The increase of tremendous strength indicates that jin has been developed in the body. Now, what should one do with all the body power? The next thing is to learn how to use it and control it. So, we go into Tuishou with a partner at a same level of skill. Since jin is hard, we must learn to soften it by doing "touch and follow". To do that is by having the hands of the partners barely touching instead of pushing real hard. Even with a little tiny push by one person, the other partner should be able feel it right away. This sensation was known as Ting Jin(聼勁). Hence, that is the main purpose of practicing Tuishou. The next thing to learn is how to neutralize the incoming force. Instead of pushing against it, it was pulled and guided away from the defender's body. While pulling, at the same time, it is time to Fajin. While the offender is pushing and the defender is pulling in the same direction, that will put the offender is an off balance position. The offender will do a Fajin maneuver to do whatever it needs to be done. This is what Tuishou was all about.

First of all, Tuishou is Tuishou. Fajin is Fajin. Fajin is an application used in tuishou. Jin has to be conditioned in the body by practicing the basic Taiji movements diligently. Fajin can be practiced solo. However, push-hand has to be with a partner in order to be able to listen to the jin of the opponent. If a body doesn't have any Jin in it cannot fajin. Fajin is a high level of practice. As for beginners, they better concentrate on practicing the basic movements, diligently, to condition their bodies to develop Jin in the muscles. In other words, what I am saying was one cannot run before learning how to walk.

FYI There are many family styles of Taiji. Each family has different forms and practiced at different levels.

I apologize for my bad. Sorry, I had the wrong impression from your description about pushing hands. Tuishou(推手) was practiced by advance Taiji practitioners. The purpose is to feel and sense the amount of force that was exerted from the partner. Push hand is a different subject. Let's start with another thread.

I believe that the idea of 寸勁(inch jin) was originated from the practice of Fajin in Taiji. The idea of "inch jin" was to execute an explosive force one inch away from the opponent without any pull back. So, the opponent will not see what the unexpected move that was coming. Bruce Lee was the expert on the practice.