ChiDragon

I am still here arguing with some old timers. Arguing with the same old things. I hope I'll never win. If I do, then, there is nothing to do here anymore.

Isn't that progress made from your practice. Now, you have developed some Jin in your body. You have a Taiji body now. Aren't you happy about that?

So, they are not actually doing tuishou, but testing each other's patience.

Never say never, it still can be done if one wants to! You can try arm wrestling with someone with equal weight or little more than you. You can Fajin with your arm and regulate your breathing. I bet you can win!

Are sure about that? Isn't that the Jin will build in your body from the diligent practice to increase your strength. It is automatically make you stronger than before. If you are able to Fajin, then, you are able to lift more weights than before.

Please read. These are the methods of Fajin. It is the description of how Jin was issued to be more effective under different circumstances. PS These are only gestures, by learning them without practicing Taiji for sometime will lead you nowhere.

Yes, I was talking about the methods of Fajin. How to use them in an application is a different discussion.

I think that is the fallacy most people thought that 掤 is an energy or strength. I have made that every clear that it is not. It is a name that was given to the method of Fajin for the posture. Ofc all the actions of the body parts are controlled by the mind. PS To be exact, 掤 is equivalent to the gesture of 野马分鬃。

Haha I knew this long time ago since day one! Yes, English explanations always contradict the Chinese version. Something always got lost in the translation. Besides, each master always tell things differently. Anyway, I am glad that you are happy of what you had been told and felt. I will stay with my non-English version of thoughts. Peace ✌🏼

Of course, all methods of Fajin are external. How can anyone expect it to be internal?

I gave you the Chinese source for long and short Jin. How about give me your English source of both Jins?

What is short Jin(短勁)? https://www.google.com/search?q=什么是太極短勁%3F&sca_esv=dcc0ce3d0aae17fc&ei=QgfeaKKxEdWhiLMP25CH8Ao&ved=0ahUKEwii2oyS3oSQAxXVEGIAHVvIAa4Q4dUDCBA&oq=什么是太極短勁%3F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFuS7gOS5iOaYr-WkqualteefreWLgT8yCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wUyCBAAGIAEGKIESL7yAVDiJVi_ywFwBHgAkAEBmAGwBaABkQ-qAQcyLTUuNS0xuAEMyAEA-AEBmAIJoALLDcICCxAAGIAEGLADGKIEwgIIEAAYsAMY7wWYAwCIBgGQBgWSBwk0LjAuNC41LTGgB9gJsgcHMi00LjUtMbgHqQ3CBwcwLjEuNy4xyAcs&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

What is long Jin(長勁)? https://www.google.com/search?q=什么是太極長勁%3F&sca_esv=dcc0ce3d0aae17fc&ei=4gXeaN7TB72bwbkPjJzR4AY&ved=0ahUKEwjezJbq3ISQAxW9TTABHQxOFGwQ4dUDCBA&oq=什么是太極長勁%3F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFuS7gOS5iOaYr-WkqualtemVt-WLgT8yCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMggQABiABBiiBEiysgFQuiFY235wAngBkAEBmAHdCKAB4SKqAQ0yLTQuMC4xLjAuMi4xuAEMyAEA-AEBmAIHoALxEMICChAAGLADGNYEGEeYAwCIBgGQBgqSBw0yLjAuMy4wLjEuMC4xoAevE7IHCzItMy4wLjEuMC4xuAfgEMIHBzAuMS41LjHIByk&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Hmmmm.....Really?

IMMHO It seems to me it was the duration of Fajin. It depends how long did it take for each method of Fajin. One can continuously applying Jin or Fajin by pushing the opponent moving backward for a long time. I would consider a short Jin was just to neutralize the opponent with one short move then stop.

Hehe, you seems to have a good grasp on Fajin. However, you put in an indirect way. You are treating the method of Fajin as a noun. What you really saying was: A master will apply the right method to Fajin when an opportunity allows in a particular situation. The eight methods of Fajin using different parts of the body indicated as follows: 1. 掤(peng) : Using one forearm sideways to push out and upward 2. 捋(lu) : Using the palms moving laterally 3. 挤(ji) : Using the back of the hands pushing forward 4. 按(an) : Using both the palms and arms in the up position with the upper torso moving forward, using the waist as leverage. 5. 采(ca) : Using the fingers holding the wrist and the elbow of the opponent moving downward. 6. 挒(lie) : Using both forearms to blocking the incoming force. 7. 肘(zhou) : Using the elbow to push the opponent when close in contact 8. 靠(kao) : Using the shoulder to push the opponent away Please note: The most effective way to Fajin is by turning the waist, at the same time, during the execution of these eight methods. https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1tmm9Y4E4g/?spm_id_from=888.80997.embed_other.whitelist&t=17.474235&bvid=BV1tmm9Y4E4g

Jin is an interesting subject to investigate. The more we discuss about Jin the more we will understand what it is. IMMHO Jin by itself, in a Taiji body, is not an explosive force. It is only a potential energy that is ready to be issued by Fajin. Jin is not an explosive force, yet, until it was issued by the practitioner. The powerful Fajin force is very deadly if someone cannot withstand the impact of contact.In regard to the different types of Jin, they are really, only, describing the methods of Fajin. There are 8 types of Fajin methods are well known and recognized by Taiji practitioners. They are 掤劲、捋劲、挤劲、按劲、采劲 、 挒劲、肘劲、靠劲.

Yes, Jin is an interesting subject to investigate. The more we discuss about Jin the more we will understand what it is. IMMHO Jin by itself, in a Taiji body, is not an explosive force. It is only a potential energy that is ready to be issued by Fajin. Jin is not an explosive force, yet, until it was issued by the practitioner. The powerful Fajin force is very deadly if someone cannot withstand the impact of contact. In regard to the different types of Jin, the 40 descriptions of Jin above are not really Jin themselves. Like I said they are only descriptions. They are really, only, describing the methods of Fajin. There are 8 types of Fajin methods are well known and recognized by Taiji practitioners. They are 掤劲、捋劲、挤劲、按劲、采劲 、 挒劲、肘劲、靠劲. All the rest, I think, they are probably using the idea of Fajin borrowed from the Taiji practitioners by other martial artists. Anyway, this is only my understanding for now.

In Taiji, it is very common for the advance practitioners to do push hand. Why only the advance practitioners can do push hand? Well, it is because beginners have not conditioned their bodies with enough jin(勁) to do the performance. It needs diligent practice day-by-day, month-by-month, and year-by-year to develop the jin in the body. In order to do so, Taiji practice must be done with the following conditions to be effective: Coordinate the movements with breathing and coordinate breathing with the movements. First of all, I had seen westerners practiced push hand by pushing each other very hard. I have a notion that they had misinterpret the word "push" in push hand. However, that is all wrong. That is not how Taiji practitioners do push hand. It should begin with "touch and follow" manner. One hand of each partner should be just barely touch each other and moving the hands back and forth without exerting a tremendous force. The touching hands of the partners should be moving back and forth in one direction. In other words, it is a push-pull motion which has the yin-yang effect. One moves forward(not push with force) while the other moves backward repeatedly. The idea was to feel or sense the force when it was exerted by the partner. The method was called "Ting Jin," listening to the force. The time to fajin is when you sensed a slight pushing force against your hand from the partner. When this happens, you pull and guide the partner's hand away from your body. Let the partner moving along in the direction of the moving force. This is called "took advantage of the opposing force to counterattack." I don't know did I say that right? Perhaps someone can put it in better English for me!

Yes, push-hand is only a practice to learn to control one's body strength which was known as Jin(勁). However, in the other hand, one blow with Fajin on the chest can stop someone's heartbeat. That is how powerful Jin was. PS The powerful Jin, explosive force, is the defensive feature of Taiji to disable the opponent in combat.

@FluffyGuardian I think this says all about Sanshou and MMA. I do not wish to go any further to argue about semantics and translations.Thanks! HAHA..... You may laugh all you want. Whatever I had said still stands.

I guess you still not have a good grasp on Tuishou. Tuishou is two people touching each other, and tries to feel a resisting force from one another. As soon the resisting force was detected from one, the other will perform fajin and give it a big push. Hence, that is the only time one is doing the pushing. However, when they are touching each other, the touching force should be slightly but not pushing hard. In conclusion, in Tuishou, it wasn't not to push at all. Rather, one must know when to do the pushing.

There are too many videos out there showing the improper way of doing Tuishou. So, this is the best demonstration I have seen so far. Please notice the softness in the arms of the practitioners at 0.57. That is the proper way how to do Tuishou.

I believe that Sanshou(散手) was translated or understood as MMA in English. One should not try to translate the compound characters word for word. There is a thought behind each compound character. If each character was translated, then, the idea behind the term will be lost in the translation.

Well, there is no need to spell out everything. The first mistake he made by pushing too hard is enough to make it invalid. He violated the basic rule of push-hand. Leaning forward causing the body to cross the centerline was understood is a no no.