ChiDragon

Did you practice any kind of Chi Kung (功) at all......????

It looks like these characters: 文: literature plus other meanings 之: of Note: These characters might not be the same as what is in the picture but it is the best that I can come close to it.

As soon you move slowly, then you are into Tai Ji...................

I've read your post. Please do not just read one line and expect to reach a logical conclusion.......

庄子说：“先生，原来你不善于使用大的东西！宋国有一个人善于炮制不皱手的药物，祖祖辈辈在水中从事漂洗丝絮的劳动。一位客人听到了这件事，请求以百金购 买他的药方。宋人把全家集合在一起，商量说：‘我家祖祖辈辈从事漂洗丝絮的劳动，所得到的钱很少，现在一旦卖出这个药方就可得到百金，让我们把药方卖给他 吧。’客人买得药方，用它去游说吴国的国王。一次越国发难侵吴，吴王派这个人统帅大军，冬天和越军在水上作战，大败越军，于是得到割地的封赏。能不皲手的 药方只有一个，有的用来博取封赏，有的仍然不能免于在水中漂洗丝絮的劳苦，这就是因为对药方的使用不同。现在你有五石容量的大葫芦，为什么不将它做成腰 舟，拴在腰间，借以飘浮在江湖之上，反而愁它大大无物可容呢？可见先生的心窍还是被蓬草睹塞了吧！” Rephrased.... Master Chuang replied, 'You were indeed stupid initially not familiar in the use of what was large. There was a man of Sung who was skilful at making a salve which kept the hands from getting chapped; and (his family) for generations had made the bleaching of cocoon-silk their business. A stranger heard of it, and proposed to buy the art of the preparation for a hundred ounces of silver. The kindred all came together, and considered the proposal. "We have," said they, "been bleaching cocoon-silk for generations, and have only gained a little money. Now in one morning we can sell to this man our art for a hundred ounces; – let him have it." The stranger accordingly got it and went away with it to give counsel to the king of Wu, who was then engaged in hostilities with Yüeh. The king gave him the command of his fleet, and in the winter he had an engagement with that of Yüeh, on which he inflicted a great defeat, and was invested with a portion of territory taken from Yüeh. The keeping the hands from getting chapped was the same in both cases; There was only one kind of medicine that would prevent the hands from getting chapped; but in the one case it led to the investiture reward of some ceded lands (of the possessor of the salve), and in the other it had only enabled its owners to continue their bleaching was inevitable to prevent the torment from their bleaching. The difference of result was owing to the different use made of the art. Now you, Sir, had calabashes large enough to hold five piculs; – why did you not think of making large bottle-gourds of them, to put them around the waist, by means of which you could have floated over rivers and lakes, instead of giving yourself the sorrow agony of finding that they were useless for holding anything. Your mind, my master, would seem to have been closed against all intelligence!'

Yes, a good teacher can only get one started; and the rest was by the inner-self-intuition to get to the final stage. As the fundamental basis was established, all the knowledge stay within to help to grok anything new that comes along. Indeed, it will speed up our learning process toward enlightenment.

Putting one on the spot, don't you think it was a noble thing to do in studying philosophy in a subtle manner.......??? Since you have concluded that Chuang Tzu's concerns were about usefulness, not human morality, thus I don't think that "destroy something that might be useful to someone else is wasteful" was ZZ's concern. He just want to make the point about the "uselessness", here, from the point of view of Master Wei. In the next part of the section, ZZ will mention about the "usefulness" of a big useless tree to make Master Wei to look bad, so to speak.

Based on the given parameters, ZZ had specified that a ladle was made from a useless gourd. If it was offered to someone else, then what can one do with it....??? Do you still think that the parable is about "self-centered" or "uselessness"....??? Since we are following ZZ's philosophy instead of LZ, do you think he is more concern about "uselessness" or human morality....???

Yes, you are correct. Sometimes, a direct translation from one language to another does sound awkward because of the non grammatical sentence structure, especially in the Chinese classic. I just have to consider myself lucky that I can come up with something for correction by an English speaker. Thank you. I had "gourd" in mind too but Legge used "calabash" in his translation.

Steve,,, Classic: 非不呺然大也 Temporal translation: 这个葫芦不是不大，而我因为它没有什么用处 How would you translate the phrase in red....??? Perhaps you need some help with the Chinese or pardon you without knowing the phrase exists.....!!!

You did a good thing, indeed, by reading into the story of the parable other than picking on each individual object. Thank you....!!!

That was only Master Wei's idea rather than ZZ's. Wait until what ZZ has to said in the second part of the section about the big tree.

That wouldn't be too Wu Wei, isn't it......???

Even though you said that you are not a Taoist but you still sound like a Taoist to me. Anyway, I'm in resonance with your thinking 99.99%.........

I have no knowledge of it at all due to there was no information in the native sources.

Legge's translation: The first part of Section 7(a) Master Hui told Master Chuang, saying, 'The king of Wei sent me some seeds of a large calabash, which I sowed. The fruit, when fully grown, could contain five piculs (of anything). I used it to contain water, but it was so heavy that I could not lift it by myself. I cut it in two to make the parts into drinking vessels; but the dried shells were too wide and unstable and would not hold (the liquor); nothing but large useless things! Because of their uselessness I knocked them to pieces.' Modern native translation: 　惠施对庄子说：“魏惠王赠送我一个大葫芦的种子，我种植它而成长，结出的果实有能容纳五石粮食那样大，用来盛水，可它的坚固程度却不能自胜。把它切开制成瓢，则瓢底大而平浅，不能容纳什么东西。这个葫芦不是不大，而我因为它没有什么用处，便把它砸碎了。” English translation: Master Hui told Master Chuang and said: "The king of the State of Wei had given me some seeds of a calabash as a gift. After I sow it, it becomes full grown. All the fruits were so big and each one can hold five piculs of foods. I used one to hold water but the firmness of the wall was not durable for the task. Then, I've made a ladle out of it but the bottom was too big and shallow which cannot hold much. This calabash is not because it is not big enough but it was useless. Therefore, I knocked them to pieces."

I have never heard of such thing as Confucian Qi Gong but I will hear somebody else's input......!!!

I can see how a bias version of the translation can change the idea of the original. I not happy with Legge's translation because he added some of his stuff that was misleading. There was no caps at the time nor it was called ceremonial caps. The original was only called out the hats but not caps anyway. In the ancient time, the people are required to bundle up their hair, in order, to wear a hat. The salesman went to a wrong place to sell his products. The moral of the story, here, is that there are certain things that are valuable in one area but maybe useless in another. Edited for typo. Section 6 of Chapter 1 Original classic: 　　宋人资章甫而适诸越(1)，越人断发文身(2)，无所用之，尧治天下之民，平海内之政(3)。往见四子藐姑射之山(4)，扮水之阳(5)，官然丧其天下焉(6)。 Modern native translation: 宋国有个人到越国去卖帽子，越国人有断发文身的习俗，用不着帽子。尧治理天下人民，安定国内的政事，到藐姑射山和汾水的北面，拜见四位得道的人士，懂得了更加深远的道理，从而忘掉了他统治天下的地位。 English translation: A salesman of the State of Sung(宋国) went to State of Yueh(越国) to sell his hats. The people in the State of Yueh are customary have their heads shaved and the body tattooed. Thus they have no need for the hats. Yao ruled the people of China; and took care the internal affairs peacefully. He went to the Mountain Ku She to visit the four highly cultivated Taoists; and learned a great deal of some profound principles. Hence, he had forgotten about his position of being the ruler of China.

I can see how a bias version of the translation can change the idea of the original. I not happy with Legg's translation because he added some of his stuff that was misleading. There was no caps at the time nor it was called ceremonial caps. The original was only called out the hats but not ceremonial caps. In the ancient time, the people are required to bundle up their hair, in order, to wear a hat. The salesman went to a wrong place to sell his products. The moral of the story, here, is that there are certain things that are valuable in one area but maybe useless in the another.

My apologies. Let me start over. I over looked and skipped to Section 6 of Chapter 2; mistakenly thought it was Section 6 of Chapter One. MH..... I just found out that I can snow you with anything.....hehehehe

That would be worse if you tell them in the open. They will never believe you or me then.......!!!

Updated version......hahahaha....... :D The concept of this section falls into the title of Chapter 2. It will be more confusing for me to go into it under this order. It would be difficult for me to comment on Legge's original translation due to the conflicts in concept between Chapters 1 and 2.

Mudryah...... Would please you do us a favor by not using up so much space in between paragraphs.......??? Thank you very much!

Wait a minute...!!! I am start looking into this section. There is something wrong here. This section actually belongs to one of the sections in Chapter 2.

We can only define the word "de" within one philosophy but not two or more. "De" stands alone with its own definition in each individual philosophy. It cannot be defined with a blanket to cover all.