ChiDragon

How do you cultivate 命？What is 命 to you?

Thank you very much for your outline. The reason I started this thread is to hear what people know and how they practice neidan. Instead, I did not get any good response like the way you gave. I appreciate your kindness in listening to my thoughts with an open heart. The appreciative response from you with an open mind is admirable. From my bicultural background, I have a better chance to see and hear both sides of the story. I can see that it is much easier for me to hear your story. However, it is not so easy for others to hear mine. It was due to the different exposure of our experiences. It is just a matter of respect for the time you spent on the subject. I will just say a few words in return. Thanks again!

You didn't mean that, I hope! 你不是在开玩笑吧？

（《道德经》）的第八章。 描述是： “上善若水。水善利万物而不争，处众人之所恶，故几于道。”

No offense. Any thing I had read relating to breathing was always used the term LDT. If a school doesn't use the term at all, I would question what are they teaching to the students.

Good answer! BTW. If my normal breathing has not been reached to LDT breathing, then I would be intentionally try to get there by breathing practice. After I'm able to do that, it will be my normal breathing habit and become unintentional.

I knew this bait was coming for an attack.

Yes! If in TCM, jing is defined as the structure of the body, and in modern science, cell is the basic unit of the body. Don't you get the implication that the Jing is equivalent to the body cell? Qi is ATP Yes! 氣 is the vital source keep the body in tact by the TCM definition. In modern science, ATP is biological energy to keep the body to function normally. Do you see the similarity between them? Yes, here and only here, I would say 氣 is ATP. Shen is something that guides the body (?) Yes, 神 (shen) is like the mind of the body or the soul of the body. The process of Neidan is deep abdominal breathing - because this gives good cell health and vitality. Yes, that was exactly the point I was making all along. The Dan is nothing more than health produced in this way. Yes, exactly. 內丹(Neidan) is a virtual pill. The ancient Taoist thought it could be produced by the 內丹術. In effect there is no real difference between qigong and neidan (?). It is because both method involves breathing. BTW It is safe to say, any method involves with breathing would be considered 氣功. It is because by definition, 氣功 is the method of breathing. Somehow, I think the Chinese teachers had misled the public. Since they told the definition of 氣 is "energy" in the west, the Chinese are starting to think that is what it is too. Is this roughly correct in your view? Yes, that is exactly correct in my view. Thank you for your patience and being a good listener. You are a gentleman and a scholar! PS It seems you have captured all of what I said. I don't know if you are resonated with me or not? I love to hear your view too!

Do you consider abdominal and reverse LDT breathing intentional?

Regular breathing is done by one's breathing habit. One can breathe shallow, short, deep, slow or fast at a different rate. It was considered to be the normal way of breathing to each individual. However, it is not necessary to be the correct way of breathing. Tu Na is done in a regulated manner. Tu Na(吐納) method: Tu (吐): Exhale slowly with the abdomen contacted inward all the way. Na(納): Inhale slowly with the abdomen expanded outward all the way. By doing so, it was known as slow, long and deep breathing. This method was the way how the ancient Chinese Taoists practiced Chi Kung breathing exercise during meditation. I need to update the information regarding to Neidan breathing. It was defined by the Taoist that is to perform reverse LDT breathing during Neidan meditation. There is an explanation why people become healthy and strong from practicing Chi Kung. It is because breathing has a biological effect to the body internally. PS The Tu Na breathing method is universal throughout the internal, external and martial arts practices.

I will leave it at Wu Wei!

Perhaps, a non-native English would understand this better! 如何解開氣功的迷? 氣功對人體的生理有很大的影響,所以首先要由人體的生理開始研究,跟著觀察氣功的特徵. 如果可以把生理和氣功的特徵連在一起便可解開這個迷. 人體的構造是由細胞組成,人體必需要能量才能生存,所以不能不提及細胞內的腺粒體(mitochondria). 腺粒體是體內的發電廠,也是靠氧氣(oxygen)和葡萄糖(glucose) 產生能量(adenosine triphosphate, ATP).葡萄糖是從食物來的.氧氣是靠呼吸供應的, 所以氣功的最高的境界是要練到氣沈丹田, 要源源不絕供氧給細胞. 葡萄糖是從食物得來之後便儲藏在肝臟的肝糖(glycogen)必要時改變為葡萄糖. 腺粒體利用氧氣化解葡萄糖來製造能量(ATP).製造多少能量(ATP)便要看在體內有多少氧氣而定,普通呼吸氧氣的份量是有限的的.另外更要注意的就是腺粒體的數量,它的數量愈多便能製造愈多能量(ATP).練氣功可以增加氧氣和腺粒體的數量. 我們可以說氧氣的份量是人體健康的關鍵. 例如強化免疫系統和強身健體. 氣功的呼吸方法與普通呼吸不同, 古時叫吐納, 現代叫腹式呼吸. 吐納方式如下: 1. 吸氣時深而慢長使腹部膨脹, 橫隔膜向下降, 同時肺部也下降於是增加了氣體的容量, 即是可以把氧氣儲藏比以前更多. 2. 呼氣時也是深而慢長使腹部收縮, 橫隔膜向上升, 同時肺部也收縮, 於是慢慢把廢氣排出. 我們要注意為何氣功的特徵, 是呼吸一定深而慢長. 原因很簡單, 這樣可以給多些時間讓氧氣停留在肺部, 同時又可讓紅血球有適當的時間把氧扣起運送給細胞. 氣功只練呼吸是稱為靜功, 練呼吸帶有動作是稱為動功. 動功夠為有效, 因為動作使到肌肉一伸一縮, 是自然啟動線粒體產生能量的好時機. 以下的化學公式可證明線粒體如何運作: Glucose + Oxygen => H2O + CO2 + Heat + Energy 葡萄糖 + 氧 => 水份 + 二氧化碳 + 熱能 + 能量 水份和二氧化碳是排除的廢物, 熱能是體溫可抵抗外寒, 能量是用來發揮五臟六腑的一切運作與功能. 身體頻繁做慢動作的運動如太極拳, 細胞便會無形中產生更多腺粒體. 腺粒體多了, 在必要時可以製造比以前更多能量(ATP)的機會, 即是可以隨時隨地發出一種強勁. 如果細胞訣氧, 腺粒體不能製造能量的過程中的丙酮酸(pyruvate)變成乳酸(lactate), 使到肌肉疼痛. 所以練氣功的人士不會有這種現象. 太極拳是最好練氣功的條件, 因為太極拳是呼吸配合動作, 和動作配合呼吸. 幫助增氧和增產腺粒體, 使身體有無限的能量去操作一切. 有無窮的力量, 正符合武人所說的名句"有氣就有力". Note: For English speakers, please do not attempt to use a translator. It is because it is going to translate 氣 as "energy" everything will be mistranslated and out of context.

Very good question! I am glad that you have brought modern science into this. The idea with slow breathing is to replace the oxygen that you was consumed. The reason we breathe is to provide oxygen to the body to so the body won't have a hypoxia condition. The reason we breathe slowly by not exhale too fast to return the oxygen back outside. The slowness in breathing is to keep the oxygen in the lung, so it will allow more time for the red blood cell to collect more oxygen and delivered to the body cells. Like I had said before. 清静無為 does not apply here. Otherwise, it would have the implication that we are just sitting to do nothing and don't do any breathing at all. BTW The practice of 氣功 is 清静有為. The intention to breathe slow is 有為.

Would you like to rephrase that. So, a non-native English speaker can understand it. Thank you!

Yes, that would be as 静功 due to performing zazen and by definition.

I think I had made it very clear. 清静無為 was not applying to breathing. If it did apply, then I wouldn't be breathing at all.

Ofc they can react. I welcome any disagreement. I always compare the new information with my mental reference. Just recently I have changed the concept of the three treasures, 精气神。I did a mental update on the subject. I had found out that I was completely wrong from reading the same misinformation over and over. Finally, I have different understanding about 精气神。I just wanted to share here. People might agree with it. However, if people understand the concept of 性命双修 and practiced, then their objection wouldn't be over reacted.

清静無為 is the philosophy from the TTC and it was advocated by Loatze. The idea is "let nature take its course." It was not suggested nor related to breathing at all.

Yes, I haven't got to it yet.

Sorry, hit the submit key twice. Mods, please delete the duplicate.

The Taoists cannot explicitly explain what was taken place inside the body, but they had given us a big clue why it works was the breathing. Luckily, they had given us a breathing method teaching us how to breathe to practice the method of Neidan.

The idea of transformation of three treasures with the follow procedure. 1. Transform 精 into 氣 練精化氣: 透過適當的靜坐、呼吸法，我們可以有效地保留並強化精，達到身體健康和長壽的效果。 Through zazen and the method of breathing, we may be effectively preserve and invigorate 精. Since 精 is the structure of the body, it makes to body healthier and reach the goal of longevity. What it is really saying here? It says we are preserving and invigorating 精 with breathing. Isn't that makes breathing is the key player here? The ancient Taoists practiced breathing and it works for them. Can they explain why it works and how it works. Yes, virtually, they had a way to express it. Somehow, they sure had made it very miserable for the modern people to understand. I must admire the wisdom and intelligence of the Taoist. At least, they came up with the idea of Naidan seems reasonable. However, what about the part of transformation of 氣 and 神? These two processes are taken place inside the body. How do they know what was going on inside the body. Unfortunately, Taoists were explained in their own way. That is why we getting all kinds of wild stories. The problem with the stories was that they were using their esoteric terms only they can comprehend. Can you imaging those who tried to interpret and translate them without the understand of the Taoist language. Hence, we may come to a conclusion the rest of the procedures are immartial. It is because the body will take care itself. People may say whatever they want.

Before we start, we must clear some of the misunderstand of the terms of 精氣神. The direct translation of the terms will throw everything off. If we stay out of using the term "energy", then we will be safe. 精 is like a microscopic living organ, it is not a sperm as one might think. 氣 is the vital source that invigorates the body. It is not an energy. 神 is the driving source of the body. It is the commander-in-chief of the body. So to speak! It is not spirit.

何必對牛彈琴!

Back on course. Disclaimer: The following information is collective throughout the years of research. It is not my original idea nor my invention. It is the principle that counts. However, who said it, where is coming from is true or not are immaterial. It is up to the judgment of the reader. Please keep in mind. It is only the principle. Per the request of @Apech I am only fulfilling his desire to hear the method of Neidan from me. This is the only way that I understand it. I will not argue with the contradiction of other sources. Their ideas may be as good as mine. Hopefully, the end result will be the same. Peace!