ChiDragon

Thanks adept. For simplicity, let's just concentrate on the legs only. The video has shown the Zhan Zhuang day 1 at the first positon, the practitioner is almost standing up straight but with the legs bent slightly not having the knees pass beyond the toes. Actually, he is doing the health chi kung. For martial artists, they would like to practice ZZ until they can stand with the bending angle of 90 degree as the shaolin monks. However, a beginner cannot bend the knees to 90 degrees at the beginning as a novice. The angle must be decreased progressively week by week or even month by month. In order to understand what was taken place in the muscles, one has to know something about the physiological effect of the body while the muscles were understand contraction.

chenpalyer.... It is completely normal in the beginning because your leg muscles had never taken this kind of punishment before. In your case, your legs muscles are lack of exercise. It would be difficult to take that much stress all the sudden. Therefore, you have to go slow in bending the angle between the upper and lower legs at the knee cap. If you practice the stance everyday, then increase decrease the bending angle from 180 degrees progressively in weeks or months. Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees even with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain, then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang. Edited to changes as indicated in BOLD.

Steve.... What do you mean by "your stance is off"....??? What is your definition of "off"...??? What is the correct starting procedure to do Zhan Zhuang for a beginner...???

觀天之道，執天之行，盡矣 【译文】观察天道运行之规律，并按照天之运行规律行动，一包括在其中了。 Observe the principles of heaven(the natural law), follow the movements of these principles, it is all encompass. Ref: http://www.culcn.cn/...sp?newsid=20954

Steve.... May I hear your point of view of what is going on with Chenpalyer based on your knowledge, how would you help him to correct his problem...???

Steve... I did my best.... PS..... You can talk to anyone who practice Zhan Zhang or Tai Ji Chuan at the beginning of the practice; and ask them to see if they have any soreness or pains on the leg muscles in the first two three months How about your feedback on this....??? PPS....... Steve: "What you are describing is not Zhan Zhuang. At best it's an isometric exercise for the quadriceps." Is there any more different....??? Do you think Kung Fu is not an isometric exercise to get the body in shape....???

Steve, let's not personalize the subject. Yes, I do have enough experience and compete confidence believe what I am saying about Zhan Zhuang. It is really common sense. That is something I know for sure. Anybody hasn't done any exercise at all; their muscles will be very weak and has no muscle tone. You can talk to anyone who practice Zhan Zhang or Tai Ji Chuan at the beginning of the practice; and ask them to see if they have any soreness or pains on the leg muscles in the first two three months.

Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees and EVEN with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain. Then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang. When you were told not to have the knees pass the toes, that is only at the beginning of the practice. However, It may not be able to not to pass the knees beyond the toes during a combat situation. Use your common sense. The reason for the practice was to allow the knees to be able to pass the toes without pain. So, the legs are more flexible to handle any adverse situation.

chenpalyer.... It is completely normal in the beginning because your leg muscles had never taken this kind of punishment before. In your case, your legs muscles are lack of exercise. It would be difficult to take that much stress all the sudden. Therefore, you have to go slow in bending the angle between the upper and lower legs at the knee cap. If you practice the stance everyday, then increase the bending angle progressively in weeks or months. Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain, then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang.

First of all, in order to understand the massaging effects, one must study the human nervous system. If the pain can be turned on, then it should be able to be turned off. In the human body there is an autonomic nervous system which has two divisions, the sympathetic division and the parasympathetic division. These two divisions are complementary to each other. For example, one increases the heartbeats, while the other decreases the heartbeat depends on the circumstances. Now get back to your question about pains. Let's assume that you have a painful area somewhere on your body. There will be, also, a sore area which associated with the painful area. If massage the painful area probably will cause more pains. However, if you massage the associated sore area, then the pain will be less and less in the effected area. Here is an example of one of my experiences. Few years ago, I have a tremendous pain in my right neck was acquired from knives throwing. I have the neck pain for two year; one day I have decided to do something about this pain. So, I have bought a book on acupuncture and The book of GRAY'S Anatomy to study the human nervous system. Anyway, to make the story short, I had found some acupoints on the shoulder blade by applying some pressure to them with a hook-like tool. Guess what? 99% of the pain was almost gone instantly. As up until now, the pain never came back. Of course, there 1% is still remains which I cannot get rid of.

您好!? 歡迎您到來.... How are you? Welcome!

My apologies. It was a pleasant surprise to hear something in a 180 degree turn. I had misread your compliment metaphorically in a negative way. I should have known that westerners always do say what that meant not like us, sometimes, Chinese say positive things in a negative way and vice versa. Thus that was where the common miscommunication between the east and the west. Anyway, I am glad that we have come to a mutual understanding....... _/\_ Namaste to you too.......

I don't know what the last symbol means. I am sure it wasn't resulted from your long term practice. Perhaps more practice might be needed in self discipline for the choice of words to express your truest feelings.

Well, I'm still struggling.... BTW The School of Nina is going to be closed down at the end of the year.

LOL Walker..... 门外汉 are always the majority......

" As far as ChiDragon's tenurial posture on this forum, I rather believe I'm on his "ignore" list— and I don't blame him one bit. heehee!!❤" deci belle.... I think you are fascinating. Whatever that means, I do appreciate that....

I think my translation in the Tao Te Ching section is philosophical. I don't think it may be very suitable for western taste....

I grant you that your only held back is on my short period of time with my Tai Ji teacher. However, my long period of time reading does not discredit my advanced comprehension with the updated continuous knowledge. Reading updated materials from knowledgeable people is most comprehensible than learning from a teacher with limited ancient mythologies and no modern science knowledge. What I meant to say is; if the basic fundamental were understood, then why not simplify it instead of complicating it to something that is beyond reasonable doubt.

There is no more to be said. I just want to emphasize that ZZ is only a simple method to strengthen the legs muscles. Thus there is really nothing else more than that. Lots of people said they do not have time to practice. The reason I agreed to do ZZ by standing in front of the TV is to take advantage of the time to do something meaningful. It is better than sitting down on a sofa and become a couch potato. I know people have learn a lot of methods and theories, but tried to apply them all in one was not the thing to do. Each method or theory is standing on its own. It is not necessary to combine them together to expect a better result than what the original method was intended. Some people are mixing Taoist thinking and Buddhist thinking and thought that was a good thing to do without having a thorough understanding of the philosophy behind each method. For example, some people might think that by applying the Buddhist Ch'an into ZZ was doing oneself a big favor. Anyway, if one really understand what ZZ and Ch'an was all about, then, one wouldn't have this kind of dubious thinking. Finally, I had read lots of posts here mixing the TCM terminologies in describing martial art by using Chi as a single unit as energy to treat it as a blanket cover for all areas.

Actually you are not going anywhere; you are still within heaven and earth. We will find you in this small universe..... PS... I might need to get out of here soon too.

Yeah, what have you learnt from you teacher...???

He had a good teacher. A good teacher will never tell him anything at the beginning. He must learn by intuition from his own practice.

Use common sense. The truth of a matter should be just one or two versions. If there are over 3 dozen versions to a truth, then this is an indication that there is no truth. "visualising the head inside of the body" is bunch of fiction thought by a crazy ancient Taoist or whoever. It is not something worth wasting your time to pursue for.

As a beginner, one would think about anything else but just go through the basic movements without following any rules. The object is to have all the movements done as smooth as possible in one continuous flow. When you move your arms, legs and hips, they should be simultaneously without hesitation. However, do not think about doing the movements correctly at the beginning because they will correct themselves in the later stage of the practice. Right now, you should just concentrate on getting the form of movements only. The key to Tai Ji is practice and practice to get it to be perfect but don't expect it to be perfect in a hurry. At the later stage in your practice, you should have your mind focus on each move. Your movements should be moved very slow; they should be moved 1/16 of an inch at a time but smoothly, so the speak. Have your mind focus at one point of your arms or legs or hips, then everything else move along with that point. You should know where your body is at all times and where and how you are going to move next. However, don't expect all this at the beginning. These features will be happening, in the future, after a long period practice. Now, the story about "open" your hips. What do you mean by "open"...??? Do you mean turning the hips....??? May I ask how is your body build physically...??? Do you think it has something to do with a physical problem in turning your hips....???

宁... Totally agree. It's better coming out from your mouth than mine.....