ChiDragon

In line 1, Chapter 1. Tao was used as a noun twice and a verb once. 1. 道(n)可道(v)，非常道(n)。 1. Tao(n) that can be spoken(v) is not the eternal Tao(n). The first and the last Tao are the same Tao.

ME....Go there and see it make any sense to you. http://forum.daoisop...227&whichpage=1 http://forum.daoisop...230&whichpage=1 I know your frustration. However, It is a different subject matter here in this thread. I am glad to go the Tao Te Ching section to discuss Chapter One over there with you.

If you really want to learn line 1 of Chapter 1, please read post # 22, it is the most scholastic explanation. It is the best source there is.

HE.... I have a very thorough explanation in the discussion of Chapter 1. Perhaps you can read my response there. If you really want to learn line 1 of Chapter 1, please read post # 22, it is the most scholastic explanation. It is the best source there is.

The usage of "Tao" seems changing its pace, completely, in Chapter 46 is very interesting.

Yes, I thought that was the naughty side of you....

Yes, but you have an open mind and open heart which make it a lot easier to communicate with. What have I done for not being nice....??? You may quote anybody's translation. It doesn't bother me. I love to analyze them.

Sorry, no offense. I guess I failed to get my point across with a little stimulant. Yes, there are many paths in learning but all depend what path you wish to take. I am not try to win. Winning is meaningless to me. If you wish to continue with your path is fine with me. I do not wish to continue to provoke with anymore stimulants. I will stop here. Peace. PS.... In order to have a meaningful discussion, one has to give it all the best and able to take criticism and have room for correction. If self pride and winning were so important and discard what someone said sustained with reasons, then, it is not a good discussion. What was a good discussion to me is that there must be exchange in words with rebuttal within the context of the subject. Otherwise, if no one respond to your comments, then, you are just talking to yourself. BTW, all the personal stuffs are just minute feces which can be ignored or filter it out. Learning is use references from many sources, it is not a guessing game or one might thought what it is.

I was in a same situation few years ago with my mother had a brain tumor. The thing to do is to have a peace of mind. It is a matter how strong your mind is to take such an adversity. It was from the knowledge of the Tao Te Ching which helped me gone to easy my mind. The whole concept in the Tao Te Ching is Wu Wei. Let Nature take its course; and that was exactly what my mother did by not having a brain surgery. She figured it will cause more pain and longer time to heal at her old age. She rather take it easy for rest of her times. Even though she did not study the Tao Te Ching, but she had the same thought of Wu Wei as laid by Lao Tze. It was a relief for me too because her thoughts coincided with what I had learnt from the TTC. So we had a experienced nurse by her side day by day. The nurse knew exactly when her time was due and told us. So, we are well prepared for. She left in peace and selected a nice funeral home for herself. I eulogized her with no tear in my eyes because I knew that was how Nature take its course. Zhuang Tze says: "From life to death is only a process that we have to go through. There was a beginning and there was an ending. All the suffering had been gone at the end of death. Thus there was nothing more to be felt sorrow for. The persons who are still living just continue with the normal routine. One passed away, it doesn't mean one will take everything away.

Okay. Fair enough. Thank you for your thoughts. Let's not get into that, here, in the Tao Te Ching section.

It's an isolated non-scholastic thought, because the notion does not link to the rest of the logic in other chapters of the TTC. Why would a person with high wisdom like LaoTze making such an uneducated remark like that.....???

1. "Bad choice. Hehehe. The word "Tao" does not exist." This is a perfect choice to illustrate the language difference in Chinese and English. "Tao" does not exist in this translated chapter was because "way" is a perfect translation for Tao in this Chapter. It would be easy for a hardheaded person to grasp this one. Hehehe.... Most people weren't thinking about the meaning of Tao because the first thing that they ever thought of "Way" was the only translation of Tao. There are many meanings for "Tao" in the Tao Te Ching. It is a matter of finding and comprehension of the meanings. It is a common problem for both natives and non-natives without looking into it very closely. 2. "I personally thing that the "W" in (2) should have been a lower case" You are perfectly correct, even in (1) "the way of heaven" should be lower case. 天之道: the way of Heaven For the interpretation here, we are not looking at Tao nor Heaven but "the way of Heaven". Then it comes to a question what is the way of Heaven. In Chinese thinking, when 天(tian: Heaven) was mentioned, it was referred as "being natural"; it has to be it; cannot change the way it is. Therefore, the phrase "the way of Heaven" actually means the "natural way" or the "way of Nature". The character "tao" used in this chapter is not the same "Tao" used in Chapter 1.

Let's compare the Chinese with English. English: My mother mothered me. Chinese: Tao ke tao(道可道). The second 道 is a small t because it is not a noun. In English, the noun "mother" becomes a verb by adding "ed" at the end. In Chinese, the noun "Tao" becomes a verb by adding the character 可(ke) in front of Tao. mothered: gave birth to ke tao(可道): may be spoken of

Now you tell us....!!!

It is because the Tao Te Ching belongs to the Taoist Discussion Forum.

I will give you an 'F' for this one. Why did you use Mitchell's mistranslation instead of Wu, Feng and Hendricks....??? Mitchell was way off basis.

Mitchell: 1. There was something formless and perfect 2. before the universe was born. 3. It is serene. Empty. 4. Solitary. Unchanging. 5. Infinite. Eternally present. 6. It is the mother of the universe(It may be the mother of the heaven and earth). 7. For lack of a better name, 8. I call it the Tao. 20. The universe follows the Tao. Note: Heaven and Earth maybe translated as the universe. CD: 1. There was a thing formed by chaos; 2. Before the sky and earth were born; 3. Soundless and formless; 4. Independent but unchangeable; 5. Moving but never fatigue; 6. It may be the mother of the heaven and earth(可以為天地母). 7. I don't know its name. 8. I have to call it Tao. 22.Tao follows its own nature. My evaluations.... 1. "Tao - noun; follows - verb. Itself - pronoun - implying thingness." Yes,Tao implying "thingness". By Loa Tze's description in Chapter 1, Tao was also implying as invisible thingness(無, Wu). 2. "there was no "... someting ... before the universe was born." I would rephrase this as: "there was no "... something was formed... before the universe was born."

There is no fun in that at all......

Here is a good one for you; tell me about Tao in Chapter 25. Then Chapter 77.

LOL.... Yes, I do agree that the Yin-Yang effect of Confucians and Taoists did hold the Chinese culture together. However, the hardship of mental sacrifices had caused many.

Ahhh.... It sounds like duck hunting to me. I still cant figure out how the brain works from here. How many types of meditations are there? The brain only can think one way....??? I can see that I can alter my behavior differently if I change the logic in my thoughts; but to change my physical body with my thoughts...hmmmm...???

Since when did I say that Tao is always a Noun...???

The post of ME was very promising and sounds good. However, Confucians contribute their virtue were with lots of intentions right up front. Confucius had taught a lot more things which need to be evaluated to see the whole picture. I agree with Mr. MH's comments in post #85 about outward expression.

No. I don't think 氣功 has anything to do with the 道德經. The reason some people thought so was because Lao Tze has mentioned 氣(Chi), as yin-yang, once in the Tao Te Ching.

1. John Wu When a wise scholar hears the Tao, He practices it diligently. 2. English/Feng The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently. 3. Robert Henricks When the highest type of men hear the Way, with diligence they’re able to practice it; Just to be fair, I'll use these three translations for an analysis. In these three translations, the key word is "practice". That leads to the question was is 道 here if we have to translate it into English...??? Scenario #1 If 道 was translated as Tao with a capitol T, then 道 is a proper noun. Suppose we replace "Tao" with Joe in the first line. It would not make any sense at all, isn't it...??? When a wise scholar hears the Joe, He practices it diligently. Scenario #2 If 道 was translated as "tao" with a small t, then 道 can be translated as the "principle of Tao" linguistically in the Chinese language. Therefore, we have a good and proper translation as: When a wise scholar hears the "principle of Tao", He practices it diligently. In Chapter 41, as written in Classic, the 道 is the principle of Tao. Scenario #3 3. Robert Henricks When the highest type of men hear the Way, with diligence they’re able to practice it; However, if "Way" was used for 道, then it doesn't has the significant meaning of the "principle of Tao" in the context as in Scenario #2. Edited: Changed the word "does" to "doesn't" in Scenario #3.