ChiDragon

The purpose of this thread was to define Jin(勁) which I had done so already in my conclusion in Post #34. What is your definition of Jin in your own words.....??? "The brain may relay the signal, but where does the energy potential itself come from?" Anyway, it was assumed that the "action potential" was understood for granted. Based on your explanation, I don't think you have a full understanding of the "action potential". One may have to do some further investigate on one's own and get a full understanding outside of this thread. PS..... I do agree what is shown in bold but it seems to me that the distinction between Jin and ATP is still not too clear in your mind.

Mr. sree, I think the Tao Te Ching says how things come to be rather than how things work. Furthermore, it was not to more relevant to life's fulfillment but rather it is the opposite. Anyhow, I don't see how that was fit into the western science.

Direct translation is no body. However, please remember we are dealing with Classic Chinese. We must interpret its meaning in classic rather than modern Chinese.

It was not a joke. This is not just a Chinese issue. It applies to all other languages. One knowing the words or characters is only the beginning to step across into another culture. By knowing the writings without knowing the culture and philosophy from its origin, it would be meaningless if one try to interpret something by using one's own native cultural thinking and philosophy. Most importantly, I think most people would have problems with the application of the words or characters in communication. The worse in the Chinese language, most of the characters can be used as a verb or a noun depends on how it was phrased in context. Sometimes, two compound characters has a complete different meaning rather than their individual meaning. For example, the term 自然(Ziren), we all knew it means "natural" by now. However, if we break it down, then it is a different story. 自: self; auto 然: yes therefore... 自然: self yes; automatically yes. One has to do a mental conversion that anything is an "automatically yes" which will lead one to think that was being "natural".

It was very clear that muscle contraction initiates the generation of ATP. BTW The brain issues a signal called the "action potential" to command the muscles to contract. As long the action potential was being fired, the muscles continue to contract. Thus, most importantly, the ATP were constantly being generated. Again, that leads to the idea about the breathing of oxygen. Without oxygen, the ATP cannot and will not be generated within the mitochondria in the muscles. However, the ATP production cycle is another issue has to be addressed elsewhere because it is not part of the scope of this thread(please read the title of this thread).

sree... 沒身 is a classic term. As a classic interpretation: 沒: the end 身: body; life 沒身; until the end of one's life; lifespan. 沒 身 不 殆 : no danger in one's lifespan or no danger throughout one's life. 沒身 cannot be interpreted as "no body".

You welcome Mr. sree The knowledgeable native scholars interpreted this way. To follow the course of Nature, one need to have a peace of mind by surrender oneself to serenity. To be objective in all matters to observe the changes in the universe. One will see the reciprocating cycle from the vitalization of all things. From that, it will be the natural routine of all matters. The natural routine of all matters then become the basic principles to be followed. One with an open mind by understand the basic principles will see things clearly. If not, there will be chaos. Understand the basic principles, one will become encompass in all matters with great tolerance with no bias. Only, and only if, one with no bias may conform with the course of Nature(Ziren, 自然, natural); one who conform with Nature will conform with Tao. One may be long lasting by the cultivation of freeing the mind from distractions. Therefore, one who keeps the mind in a state of serenity and a clear heart with great wisdom will be free of danger.

hahahaha....I still haven't heard a word from you yet. I don't want to contaminate this thread with some unnecessary arguments. Would you like to initiate your own thread if there is something you would like to discuss....???

I glad to see you to start your own post that is more presentable. Thank you in advance. No more empty shells, please. I do not wish to continue with this nonsense implicating that "I know something that you don't." So, please....!!!!!!!!!!!

Human biochemical energy --- ATP For those who study martial arts should have some of this basic knowledge.

Animation showing how ATP was released for muscle contraction: http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072495855/student_view0/chapter10/animation__breakdown_of_atp_and_cross-bridge_movement_during_muscle_contraction.html If the ATP was not released, then muscle contraction cannot be taken place.

I think I had another thread on that long time ago. It is a general knowledge. Please go google it yourself and do your own homework. BTW Do you know what is an "action potential"......????

Chapter 16 1. Reaching vacuousness to its extremity, 2. Maintaining stillness ultimately. 3. All things are being vitalized, 4. I observed that they are reciprocating. 5. Therefore, all things are flourishing, 6. Each returns to its root, 7. Returns to its root means stillness. 8. Stillness means returns to its essential. 9. Returns to essential is called the basic routine. 10.Knowing the routine is called comprehension. 11.Not knowing the basic routine, 12.Will act rashly become chaotic. 13.Knowing the basic routine is encompassing. 14.Encompassing is justice. 15.Justice is wholeness. 16.Wholeness is natural. 17.Natural is Tao. 18.Tao is eternal. 19.Thus, the whole lifespan will be in no danger. 1. 致 虛 極 2. 守 靜 篤 。 3. 萬 物 並 作 ， 4. 吾 以 觀 復 。 5. 夫 物 芸 芸 6. 各 復 歸 其 根 。 7. 歸 根 曰 靜 ， 8. 是 謂 復 命 ； 9. 復 命 曰 常 ， 10. 知 常 曰 明 。 11. 不 知 常 ， 12.妄 作 凶 。 13.知 常 容 ， 14.容 乃 公 ， 15.公 乃 全 ， 16.全 乃 天 ， 17.天 乃 道 ， 18.道 乃 久 ， 19.沒 身 不 殆 。

Interesting point 4 --- The Importance of Breathing. The application for the ultimate breathing method is a lot different from the regular practice. During practice, one can inhale and exhale anytime. However, in a combat situation, one would like to inhale as long as one can and exhale very slowly. Video-1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZf4taeqht0 Let's look at each round, from the beginning to the end, Master Chen had his mouth closed at all times while Long is opening his mouth yelling and screaming. Indeed, both are doing the opposite of each other. Master Chen was using the best breathing method while Long was using the worse. The kind of breathing method was used by each person is very significant to determine the outcome of the match. Inhalation in breathing is to provide a source of oxygen to generate the body energy. Therefore, one would like to breathe as much oxygen as possible in one inhalation. Then the oxygen shall be retained inside the lungs as long as possible. However, breathing involves inhalation and exhalation. Inhalation is to breathe deeply; but a special technique for exhalation is need to retain the oxygen for a duration of time. Here is the special technique for retaining the Chi(in terms of oxygen) inside the lungs after one deep inhalation. It may be difficult to describe for one to understand but I'll try. With the mouth closed at all times, using the reverse breathing method and take one deep inhalation, one should feel a compression in the trachea. The compression was due the reverse breathing and inhalation. Try to circulate the Chi up and down in the trachea but do not try to hold the breath. While the Chi was being circulated, release a small amount of air through the nostrils in one short burst then go back to compress the Chi again in the trachea. The reason for one not to hold the breath because it will cut off the oxygen being supplied to the head and the face will be turned red due to suffocation. When holding the breath, one will feel that the Chi was compressed downward instead of circulating. As long there was oxygen in the lungs, the heart will be able to deliver the oxygenated blood to the body cells. Hence, the cell respiration process will continue to manufacture the biochemical energy ATP. In Long's case, each time when he yell and scream that will cause him to exhale and the manufacturing process of ATP ceases. Under this condition, it will make him the weakest at the time and most vulnerable for Master Chen to push him back. Let's look at 9:00 in Round 2, Long was yelling and screaming, Master Chen had taken the advantage of that and regain his position in the Yin-yang circle.

Yes, "formless" is only a philosophical concept from a Taoist point of view. What that all come to was the self discipline in cultivation for self poise which is a big challenge skill to endure something that others cannot endure. The best part of the endurance was no harm done at all to the Taoist cultivator....

Interesting point 3 --The Internal Art......Neigong(內功) Yes, let's talking about internal arts. It is time to look closely inside Chen Xioawang's body to see how he mastered his internal arts. So far, we know Master Chen has to maintain his resisting force of 150 pound by generating his Jin constantly. Thus he knew that, at the time, once his Jin was collapsed then he will be pushed out of the Yin-yang circle immediately. What is the worse case that will cause his Jin to be collapsed...??? From his internal arts skill, he knew darn well that he must not release his chi (in terms of oxygen) from the dan tian during the one-minute strength match. Finally, this will give us a chance to go into breathing which is Chi Kung, the ultimate method of breathing. Chi Kung is the prerequisite for neigong(internal arts). Neigong is a method to control the body internally to prolong the body strength for a persistent duration. In the case of Master Chen, in order for him to prolong his body strength, he requires a constant source of energy to generate his Jin continuously. He knew that he must not exhale completely for one minute. How can he do that...??? There is the real ultimate breathing skill from Chi Kung practice. First of all, he must use the reverse breathing method then compress his breath rather than holding the breath. What was that all mean in terms of modern science....??? In order for Master Chen to keep up with his body strength, he needs a constant supply of oxygen for the mitochondria in his body cells to manufacture ATP. "Constant" means that he cannot exhale his breath completely because his ATP energy will collapse as soon he does that. Thus he must exhale slowly to release the carbon dioxide while keeping the oxygen inside. PS.... The effect of the reverse breathing and compressing the chi inside the lungs will be discussed to show how it was done in the next post.

You are right to say that I am a Philosophical Taoist and a "Laoist". BTW did you know that the ideas of the philosophical Taoist was all from Lao Tze's patented idea of Wu Wei, so to speak......???

I am glad that someone understand the same way as I understood Wu Wei. Let's continue with our Wu Wei......

I knew something about frequency modulation(FM) too. I don't think that was how it works. I hope the FM radio operators do not read about this. PS..... Since this thread is parallel to the other one, I am just wondering is this thread related to Tai Ji Chuan or how to obtain an amateur radio operator license.....???

Interesting point 2 ---The most power stance. In the strength match, Master Chen was not just took the most ultimate strength test against the strongest man in Asia and Chines. He also took the upmost test of his Zhan Zhuang practice. Please notice that he was not standing on the ground with friction but he is standing on a frictionless mat. The slippage on the mat will make it much harder for him to anchor himself in place. Another words, he must exert extra Jin in his leg muscles. How did Master Chen make changes to his strength so quickly. The key in on his right foot. Please notice when Long moved his whole body to a different position, Mater Chen only moved his right foot pointing at the direction where Long had just moved. This is a very effective way to resist a force from the pushing direction. Another thing we should have noticed that the Master was using the most power stance to go against a pushing force. The stance was called the "Bow and Arrow Stance" with the bent leg in front and the straight leg in the back. The reason it was called as such is very obvious because that is the most effective way to shoot an arrow with a bow. BTW At this position of the stance, the bent right leg was considered to be the "bow" and the straightened left leg was considered to be the "arrow". The stance allow one to rest the body weight was right lower leg. The left leg was used as a supporting beam for the whole body, in a diagonal position, against a pushing force.

Here is one noticeable point that was interesting to see. In video-2, Master Chen talks about the importance of to have the chi in the dan tian, at all times, because dan tian is the most vulnerable spot in the body to anybody. Therefore, when one is in a strength match, the worse thing was to have the opponent attack one's weakest spot. In Video-1, let's look, at 3:50, and see what Master Chen was doing to his opponent. While his opponent was perspiring, Chen was using his Jin to strike the right hip of his opponent three times. Please note that, every time, his opponent got hit at the vulnerable area, his body jumps up a bit. What is happening was that his looses his chi in the dan tian which makes him the weakest person at the moment. For a fair competition, one should not use an extra force upon the other.

Since I had concluded this thread, but there are lot more pointers, in the videos, I would like to share with those who are interested. It is very interesting to talk about it by going into the refinements of the martial arts. I think the stance and breathing of the two masters, during the match, are worthwhile to talk about it.

Let's continue and review with the help of the modern science to see how did Master Chen to maintain his body strength against the strong man in Asia and China. So far, the formula for the summation of forces was used to see what Master Chen need to do to maintain the point of contact at zero. F1 = Weight of Long Wu F2 = Weight of Chen Xioawang E = The force to be exerted by Chen to maintain equilibrium F1--------->0<--------F2 + E 350 ------->0<-------200 + 150 The finally conclusion: Chen was using his own tremendous body strength to hold the strongest man in his life. The tremendous body strength was know as Jin(勁) in Tai Ji term. With the help of modern scientific knowledge, it leads us to correlate "Jin" to the scientific term "adenosine triphosphate (ATP)". How do they correlate with each other...??? It was based by a statement made by Chen in Video-2 and the basic biochemical energy formula on muscle contraction: 1. Chen : "The chi must merge with the muscles to Fa Jin." 2. Basic formula: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + Energy In comparison, the Chi is analogous to Oxygen and Jin is analogous to Energy(ATP). Since the combination of chi and muscle are require to generate Jin and the muscles do require oxygen to generate the energy, therefore there is a big correlation in the two statements which involve with the muscle movement. The common factor here is the movement of the muscle which is the main criteria with the same ingredients for the energetic process. Therefore, unless otherwise, I have come to a conclusion that Jin(body strength) and ATP(biochemical energy) are correlated to each other as far as Tai Ji Chuan is concern. Note: In the Chinese language, in general, Chi is a gaseous substance. In terms of breathing, it has the meaning of "air" or "breath".

Now let's apply the basic formula to both competitors. 1. Long Wu: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + Li(力) Long does not have any Chi Kung experience, his normal body strength(Li) will be depleted as soon as he is out of breath and become fatigue. 2. Chen: Glucose + Chi = Water + C02 + Heat + Jin(勁). In Chen's case, we have to start with the basic formula and see how his normal body was developed to a Tai Ji body. Please note that in his formula, "Chi" was substituted for oxygen to indicate that amount of oxygen intake is much greater than normal due to Chi Kung practice; and "Jin" was substituted for energy to indicate the his energy level or body strength is much greater than few decades ago. Initially, Chen's body was just like a normal person. The muscles in the body is getting to be firmer and the energy level is higher after decades of practicing Tai Ji Chuan. What so unique about Tai Ji that will strengthen the muscles in the body...??? It is the slowness of the movements which slowly work into the muscles causing the muscles to become firmer slowly. At the same time, breathing was done spontaneously to increase the oxygen intake progressively. At the beginning of Tai Ji practice, besides, the arms and legs were moving slowly; but it was also told to bent them slightly. Without realizing that the muscles were contracted slightly due to the bending movements. The slight contraction will cause the muscles to manufacture ATP energy which required for the actual muscle contraction. Since the body cells are manufacturing the ATP, there will be a demand for more supply of oxygen. The respiratory system will be activated to breathe more air into the lungs. The process will take place constantly if the practice continues and the breathing will be deeper and deeper. The breath will go down deep into the dan tian so to speak by the ancients. This is the hidden Chi Kung part in Tai Ji Chuan. That is why Tai Ji Chuan was considered to be a form of Chi Kung(see note). Most importantly, the energy level was increased in the body due to the practice. The body will function and fine tune itself to the ultimate state of homeostasis. Initially, the number of mitochondria in the muscles were lower. The body strength Li was not as much. Since Master Chen Xiaowang have a long period of practice, the number of mitochondria have been increased tremendously in his muscles. His Li will be tremendous when he contract his muscles. Remember I said in the earlier post, a large amount of Li was considered to be Jin. Indeed, right now, Mater Chen has a tremendous numbers of mitochondria in all his muscles. Therefore, when he contract any muscle in his body to exert his body strength, the Li will be considered to be Jin. Can one imaging that when he contract all the muscles in his body, do you know how much Jin can he be generated to resist any pushing force against him. Finally, he was able to withstand the extra 150 pound pushing force by Long Wu. Note: By the Chinese definition, Chi Kung is to enhance the breathing habit for the respiratory system. Therefore, Chi Kung was considered to be the ultimate method of breathing. PS... If you have any comments, please do not hesitate to post them. Thank you very much.

The explanation of the basic formula of cell respiration. Basic formula: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + Energy ATP formula: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + ATP In the basic formula, the left hand side tells us that we must eat and breath in order to have energy to burn. The glucose was acquired from eating; and the oxygen was from breathing. In the right hand side, it was the chemical reaction taken place after the glucose was decomposed by the oxygen. The water and Carbon dioxide are the waste products resulted from the body cells. During the muscle contraction, heat was generated as our body heat; and mostly importantly, the ATP energy was generated for the lungs to breath, the heart to pump, the action potential from the brain to send message through the central nervous system and etc. Overall, the ATP is the vital energy for the whole body to function. The more energy the body is much healthier and the body has quicker response. If the oxygen on the left hand side of the formula was decreased by a short of breath, then the heat and energy on the right hand side will be decreased. The lactic acid level will be increased in the body to cause the muscles to fatigue due to hypoxia(lack of oxygen) . If the condition of hypoxia occurs in the body for a long time, then chronic diseases will cause the body to deteriorate due to the low level of the biochemical energy(ATP). In the worse case, death may result if the body was either lack of food or oxygen. The ATP are constantly generated. If they were not used, then they will be gone in few seconds until the next inhalation to provide more oxygen to produce more.