ChiDragon

Why can't you accept "Thus no cannot cure"? Okay, if this is your translation, then what is the meaning of this or your interpretation....??? "不 治" cannot be treated as noun because it is an adjective.

When personality strikes, nothing matters; all reasoning, idealism, wisdom, knowledge and virtue are gone to hell.

In Chinese Buddhism, Enlightenment releases all suffering.

....................a blind learning from a blind............ PS.... Who says I am not a blind but only with my eyes open....???

reen... Do you know how many times the DDJ has been altered in the past two thousand years history....??? I would not consider this is a waste of energy to iron out some reconcilable differences. It not, it is okay too. I can see that we all have our own sources. I agree that the first source of ours is hard to let go as a standard. I do realize that we do have differences in thinking, culture, language, and most of all is our personality. Personality is the hardest thing to overcome in any matter. Normally, that was the area where we ended up having the argument comes to a halt. When personality strikes, there was nothing can move forward again but just hung in thin air.

Here comes the personalization again; and that is where the authentic originality gets lost. And all this talk how much we know about Wu Wei is no longer visible. Peace to all....

rene... If you are not too upset, I would like to add this to your flavor... 18 1. 大道廢，有仁義。 2. 智慧出，有大偽。 3. 六親不和，有孝慈。 4. 國家昏亂，有忠臣。 In line 2 of Chapter 18 智慧 is proper term for wisdom.

Okay....it was understood that the both characters are interchangeable. I made the change was to illustrate that would be the correct format by following the modern Chinese standard for clarity. If one has to rewrite it, I definitely would make that change.

FYI... Phlegm is the mucus which collects the dust and bacteria in the respiratory tract. When phlegm was formed, it will cause agitation to spit it out your system.

Sorry, rene. It was not that I don't agree with Wang's idea regarding Wu-wisdom (無知) , or that 知=wisdom and 智=knowledge. Somehow, It was Wang had the definitions reversed. I don't know why he did not follow the modern Chinese standard. That is not fine for me to participate in this discussion with integrity. Yes you are right, then continuing has no value. Do you see the dilemma, here, when we talking about the terms....???

yiming..... So what is your actual question....??? Anyway, Classic Chinese is not that vague as you thought it might be rather it was the interpreter was vague about it.

If one follows the modern definition above, anything has to do with wisdom, intelligence and cleverness; then 智(zhi4) is the character to be used. Anyway, this is the basic rule. I will use this rule to check the consistency in the context for 知 and 智. Let's use this example again. 3 恒使民 無知、無欲也， Always let the people to have no knowledge(無知) of cunning(scheming, cheating...etc) No desire(無欲) to steal(rob, loot..etc). Note: no knowledge(無知) of cunning(scheming, cheating...etc) requires cleverness. Therefore, the above should read as follows: 3 恒使民 無智、無欲也， Always let the people to have no cleverness(無智) in cunning(scheming, cheating...etc) No desire(無欲) to steal(rob, loot..etc).

Yes, I understand that. Anyway, it wasn't relevant in this discussion . Now, I have completed my post in the above.

ahhhhhhhh...rene Yes, I have no problem with "知 and 智 are often used interchangeably in many ancient Chinese classics." The meaning for both characters can be easily determined within the classic context. Anyway, only in modern Chinese has a distinction between the two. Let's look at Chapter 3 無知... Let's analyse this 無知. Your interpretation is contrary to the popular statement that Laotzu intended to make people ignorant and without desires. You are on the right track. Yes, LaoTze did not encourage the people to seek positive wisdom nor to be ignorant because the people have their own choice for what they wanted to be. I don't think main concern was about that. Based what has been said, it would be a more appropriate to translate it as: 3 恒使民 無知、無欲也， Always let the people to have no knowledge(無知) of cunning(scheming, cheating...etc) No desire(無欲) to steal(rob, loot..etc). 無知, here, means no knowledge of 5. 言有宗, 6. 事有君。 7. 夫唯無知也, 8. 是以我不知。 5. Words has an origin. 6. Matter has its root. 7. Because others don't understand these reasons, 8. Thus that's why they don't understand me. Lines 7 and 8 have to be interpreted within context with lines 5 and 6. 7. Because others don't understand(無知) these reasons(lines 5 & 6), 8. Thus that's why they don't understand(無知) me. 無知 in these two lines means don't understand.

You did indeed.

rene.... I am going to tell like it is. What threw me off was this. The Tao Te Ching was written based on the philosophy of Wu Wei(無為). In a way, I agree that Wu Wei(無為), Wu Zhi(無知) and Wu Yue( 無欲) can be considered as a state of Wu. From the OP, I don't see how Wu Zhi(無知) was defined here. I know Wu Wei(無為) and Wu Yue( 無欲) can be considered to be the state of Wu for Tao, not in a sense of invisible, but just being its natural self. However, Wu Zhi(無知) is not a state of Wu nor the positive nature of Tao but only for the people as suggested by LaoTze. Before, I go any further. rene, Did Dr. Wang or you define what is the meaning of Wu-wisdom....??? I need to know his or your definition of Wu-wisdom before I continue. Thanks.

rene, hi Thank you...!!! It's sure make a difference with the minds of two people were met in synchronization when comes to understanding.

Sorry....rene....!!!

To be honest with you. Your posts are getting too personal. I had lost all my interest in dealing with your comments. This will be my last response to you. I don't really care what you think. Wu Wei or not, I am done with you. Period. Based on these comments is reasonable enough to discourage myself to continue with this......!!!!

rene... Wow, this is a big turn in the State of Wu. I have gone over those chapters that you had listed. Now, I know what do you mean by the State of Wu which is the same as described in Chapter one all along. I am glad to go over each line which describes that Tao was invisible as in the State of Wu this time around. Thank you. Edited to add: PS..... Just in case, you are wondering why I had over looked at your list of chapters. It was because I had found some contradictory statements in the rest of the OP which threw me off.

Wise....... I will see to that your advice has been met. Thanks.

Pursue it only if you have an open-mind. If this is only a one-man notion, then it is not worth to pursue to prevent one from being a fanatic follower. PS.... This is only MMHO.

"Wu Wei" and "No Action" are both as confusing as in Chinese and English and all other languages. However, whomever uses the term was assumed that one knows its concept or philosophy behind it. The concept of Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching but not one's own definition.

I may follow the concept of Wu Wei as accused. If I don't, then that will be my first time of the miss usage of it. Just for your benefit of the doubt, I will remain silence and let the true meaning of the Tao Te Ching continue to be jeopardized. Thus I will leave myself defendless to maintain its integrity of the Tao Te Ching. However, I will be no long be your stalker with good reasons that you cannot come up with a better rebuttal.

Okay.............. Ask me the next question....!!!