ChiDragon

bubbles.... Thanks for trying. Well, my man. I don't believe everything I read fanatically unless it makes a lot of sense. I do have a literal filter you know. Some of the masters have limited knowledge of modern science. They are still explain their ideas in the traditional way of thinking. However, I do respect them but may not agree with them. I don't think we should continuous with these who says what and what not, unless you have something to express in your own words. Citing somebody's words may not be one's own understanding. Regarding to the mentioning of the legs muscle, it gives me an indication that you have no idea what you were talking about. It seems you were just repeating somebody else words without any intensive understanding.

The jacket of the book may look very awesome and attractive; but why should the contents be ignored due to ignorance......???

Standing pole 站: standing 樁: a pole was used for a foundation to build a house. 站樁:standing on a pole. Learn Zhan Zhuang from a bird. The original Shaolin method of Zhan Zhuang was having the practitioner standing on two poles. That was where the term of Zhan Zhuang came from. The student was force to stand on two poles with the feet. It is very hard to be in balance on the poles without bending the knees. After the student had fell a few times, one will learn to stand with the knees bent in order to stay in balance.

One is completely lost when one thinks one was enlightened.

Li Jiong, I am a Li(李) too. It is nice to see a real Taoist Master here in the forum. Ｗhere have you been 修道 at in the last 20 years...??? I would like to hear some of your cultivated experiences. I would like to know how did you start going about being a Taoist practitioner...??? Did you learn your English in the Taoist shrine(道觀) too....???

Chenpalyer.... Your sifu is doing the Chen Style Tai Ji alright. May I ask you where did you get the term "standing pole". BTW It is the proper translation for Zhan Zhuang(站樁). I will wait for your response before say anything else....

Yes, you are a fine practitioner. I was hoping someone with some fundamental knowledge to come forward to make the correction. " Do you think Kung Fu is not an isometric exercise to get the body in shape....???" It should be corrected to read as follows: " Do you think Kung Fu is not an isotonic exercise to get the body in shape....???" However, we must give Zhan Zhuang a little credence to the idea that standing is a part of an "internal" art. It is because ZZ is the only "internal art" which was required for Kung Fu as the prerequisite. Thus all Kung Fu practitioner starts with ZZ before taken other training. You are right about the low stances. BTW Yu Gua Shun is actually performing the second level of Tai Ji Chuan with Fa Jin. At his level, he is way passed from getting his knees hurt or damage.

WOW, the last picture shown is real Zhan Zhuang.

ALL OF THE ABOVE except the last statement.......!!!!! "Many taiji players have bad knees for this very reason." It seems to me they need more practice.

Please read MY WORDS very carefully. The emphasis is on the words "until you can". You see you people already make up your mind about something without paying much ATTENTION to minor details. READ MY WORDS.... AT THE BEGINNING, ONE DO NOT PASS THE KNEES BEYOND THE TOES. HOWEVER, AFTER YOU HAVE PRACTICED LONG ENOUGH AND HAVE YOUR MUSCLES WORKED UP AND THE PAIN OR SORENESS IN THE MUSCLES OR THE KNEES IS NO LONGER AN ISSUE. DO YOU READ AND UNDERSTAND...??? THE PURPOSE FOR ZHAN ZHUANG IS TO GET RID OF THE SORENESS IN THE MUSCLES. SO EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE THE KNEES PASS THE TOES, THEY WILL NOT HURT.

Thank you for not given a direct answer. We cannot go too far with this kind of response, can we....???

Thanks adept. For simplicity, let's just concentrate on the legs only. The video has shown the Zhan Zhuang day 1 at the first positon, the practitioner is almost standing up straight but with the legs bent slightly not having the knees pass beyond the toes. Actually, he is doing the health chi kung. For martial artists, they would like to practice ZZ until they can stand with the bending angle of 90 degree as the shaolin monks. However, a beginner cannot bend the knees to 90 degrees at the beginning as a novice. The angle must be decreased progressively week by week or even month by month. In order to understand what was taken place in the muscles, one has to know something about the physiological effect of the body while the muscles were understand contraction.

chenpalyer.... It is completely normal in the beginning because your leg muscles had never taken this kind of punishment before. In your case, your legs muscles are lack of exercise. It would be difficult to take that much stress all the sudden. Therefore, you have to go slow in bending the angle between the upper and lower legs at the knee cap. If you practice the stance everyday, then increase decrease the bending angle from 180 degrees progressively in weeks or months. Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees even with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain, then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang. Edited to changes as indicated in BOLD.

Steve.... What do you mean by "your stance is off"....??? What is your definition of "off"...??? What is the correct starting procedure to do Zhan Zhuang for a beginner...???

觀天之道，執天之行，盡矣 【译文】观察天道运行之规律，并按照天之运行规律行动，一包括在其中了。 Observe the principles of heaven(the natural law), follow the movements of these principles, it is all encompass. Ref: http://www.culcn.cn/...sp?newsid=20954

Steve.... May I hear your point of view of what is going on with Chenpalyer based on your knowledge, how would you help him to correct his problem...???

Steve... I did my best.... PS..... You can talk to anyone who practice Zhan Zhang or Tai Ji Chuan at the beginning of the practice; and ask them to see if they have any soreness or pains on the leg muscles in the first two three months How about your feedback on this....??? PPS....... Steve: "What you are describing is not Zhan Zhuang. At best it's an isometric exercise for the quadriceps." Is there any more different....??? Do you think Kung Fu is not an isometric exercise to get the body in shape....???

Steve, let's not personalize the subject. Yes, I do have enough experience and compete confidence believe what I am saying about Zhan Zhuang. It is really common sense. That is something I know for sure. Anybody hasn't done any exercise at all; their muscles will be very weak and has no muscle tone. You can talk to anyone who practice Zhan Zhang or Tai Ji Chuan at the beginning of the practice; and ask them to see if they have any soreness or pains on the leg muscles in the first two three months.

Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees and EVEN with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain. Then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang. When you were told not to have the knees pass the toes, that is only at the beginning of the practice. However, It may not be able to not to pass the knees beyond the toes during a combat situation. Use your common sense. The reason for the practice was to allow the knees to be able to pass the toes without pain. So, the legs are more flexible to handle any adverse situation.

chenpalyer.... It is completely normal in the beginning because your leg muscles had never taken this kind of punishment before. In your case, your legs muscles are lack of exercise. It would be difficult to take that much stress all the sudden. Therefore, you have to go slow in bending the angle between the upper and lower legs at the knee cap. If you practice the stance everyday, then increase the bending angle progressively in weeks or months. Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain, then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang.

First of all, in order to understand the massaging effects, one must study the human nervous system. If the pain can be turned on, then it should be able to be turned off. In the human body there is an autonomic nervous system which has two divisions, the sympathetic division and the parasympathetic division. These two divisions are complementary to each other. For example, one increases the heartbeats, while the other decreases the heartbeat depends on the circumstances. Now get back to your question about pains. Let's assume that you have a painful area somewhere on your body. There will be, also, a sore area which associated with the painful area. If massage the painful area probably will cause more pains. However, if you massage the associated sore area, then the pain will be less and less in the effected area. Here is an example of one of my experiences. Few years ago, I have a tremendous pain in my right neck was acquired from knives throwing. I have the neck pain for two year; one day I have decided to do something about this pain. So, I have bought a book on acupuncture and The book of GRAY'S Anatomy to study the human nervous system. Anyway, to make the story short, I had found some acupoints on the shoulder blade by applying some pressure to them with a hook-like tool. Guess what? 99% of the pain was almost gone instantly. As up until now, the pain never came back. Of course, there 1% is still remains which I cannot get rid of.

您好!? 歡迎您到來.... How are you? Welcome!

My apologies. It was a pleasant surprise to hear something in a 180 degree turn. I had misread your compliment metaphorically in a negative way. I should have known that westerners always do say what that meant not like us, sometimes, Chinese say positive things in a negative way and vice versa. Thus that was where the common miscommunication between the east and the west. Anyway, I am glad that we have come to a mutual understanding....... _/\_ Namaste to you too.......

I don't know what the last symbol means. I am sure it wasn't resulted from your long term practice. Perhaps more practice might be needed in self discipline for the choice of words to express your truest feelings.