ChiDragon

Don't you see line 14(s) stated the reason why it is FOR Wu Wei (Wie Wu Wei) .....??? PS... In order to understand the Chinese classic properly, one must read the whole chapter and consider all the pertinent interpretations to get the overall picture. PPS... Chapter 2 defines Wu Wei; and Chapter 3 referenced to it by stating the reason why it was FOR Wu Wei Wu(Wei Wu Wei).

CD... 12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire, 13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts. 14. Trailing to a natural path, 15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled. 14. Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei, 15. Then, there is nothing that couldn't be handled (done, finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....) The reason I do that was to include the term "Wu Wei" in the Translation because it was in the original classic. Don't you think that "Trailing to a natural path" implies the meaning of "the attitude of Wu Wei"....??? PS.... It was also my trick to see who will question the way you do. BTW You have a very conscious mind. If you keep that up, you might not even have to quit this thread......

It means unite yourself with Nature and live naturally in accordance with the principle of Nature. The principle of Nature is just to let it be or let it happen as the way it should and will be.

Yes, MH In general when the TTC mention heaven and earth... Heaven is Nature Heaven and earth is the Universe. 天(tien): heaven By the TaoTe Ching definition, heaven implies 'natural', 自然(Zi Ren). In Chinese thinking, people will blame everything on heaven. They all say "oh my heaven" instead of "oh my God".

14.Gives silent instructions(no instruction). 15.Let things be with no interference; 16.Grown without possession. 17.Sustain without domination. 18.Success without dwelling. 19.Because of not dwelling alone, 20.Merits do not vanish. If you treat line 15 as the main clue, then the rest of the lines would be just examples of the clue. Isn't what lines 14 through 18 are the hidden messages which are suggesting that Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course" PS..... This is the way how the Chinese classic was written. It doesn't write out what exactly what it says but only given clues. Sometimes, a phrase does not say what it meant nor meant what it says. It is very paradoxical. It was up to the reader to find the clues in the text by linking the thoughts from line to line. It is up to the reader to put the clues together, just like a jig puzzle, to make some sense out of the context.

MOD.... please removes this double entry. Thanks.

CD... 12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire, 13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts. 14. Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei, 15. Then, there is nothing that couldn't be handled (done, finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....) The reason I like to keep the term Wu Wei in the translation is because, after all, it is the whole philosophy that LaoTze was tried to convey and well defined in Chapter 2. Wu Wei is the first appeared in Chapter 2. Therefore, LaoTze spelled out the definition of Wu Wei there. If one is in doubt what Wu Wei is, one can always go back to Chapter 2 as a reminder.

Yes, I cannot agree more but keep it relevant....

Henricks, Lines 9 - 11 He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires. If he can bring it about that those with knowledge simply do not dare to act, Then there is nothing that will not be in order. CD... 12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire, 13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts. 14. Trailing to a natural path, 15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled. 14. Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei, 15. Then, there is nothing that couldn't be handled (done, finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....) J Wu, Lines 12 - 15 In this way he will cause the people to remain without knowledge and without desire, and prevent the knowing ones from any ado. Practice Non-Ado, and everything will be in order. Wang, Lines 7 - 9 In order to guide people to the Wu-wisdom and Wu-desire. This keeps men of knowledge refrained from daring, and act only with Wu. Nothing is then unmanaged.

CD's translation... Chapter 3 1. Dejectedly soliciting intelligentsia, 2. Discourage people from striving. 3. Not to value hard to obtained goods, 4. Prevent people from being thieves. 5. Not being seen desirable, 6. People won't become perturbed. 7. With sagacious ruling, 8. Emptied one's heart, 9. Solidified one's belly, 10. Weaken one's volition, 11. Strengthen one's bone, 12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire, 13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts. 14. Trailing to a natural path, 15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

To run a government, it is impossible not to administer any rules. What LaoTze was suggesting "rule with Wu Wei", he simply meant administer decrees to a minimal and let the people be.

The intended purpose was to find out what Wu Wei was. Somehow, people are twisting the meaning around and we got lost again.....

Please read it first. You are defeating the purpose of this thread......

Hi, rene I know there are many paths to going from point A to point B; but the shortest distance between two points is a straight line....

Stosh... Wei wu wei means You are doing natural things to act in a fashion in accordance with wu wei? and the finally result of the wu wei process means is for the people.

These two are out of the question. wei wu wei means... 'The lack of action in this way effects the desired change'(Incorrect translation) wei wu wei means.... 'for the people' My original statement was analogous to but not equal to. "FOR Wu Wei" is analogous to "FOR the people" What I was trying to say is: I am building up the country was for the good of the people(FOR the people). I am doing all natural things for the concept of of Wu Wei(FOR Wu Wei).

I agree, but at the moment, we are trying to get the definition straight before we go into its application. Since applications are vary from case to case, therefore, I am only on a trail to investigate the pure aspect of the philosophy. Just for consistency and avoid distraction in the dialogs, I would like to keep the applications out for now.

Yes, I do agree that we may both benefit from our disagreements. Now, let me translate these two phrases. 14 為無為, wéi wú wéi, for wu wei Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei, 15 則無不治。 zé wú bù zhì。 Then, there is nothing that cannot be done(finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....)

If we are looking the Wu Wei and Yo Wu Wei, the thinking now is this: In the contrast, Yo Wei is intentional. Wu Wei is unintentional. In both case, naturalness has less significance then Wu Wei alone by itself. Another words, when only Wu Wei was addressed, "unnatural action" must be considered. When both Wu Wei and Yo Wei were compared, the unnaturalness may be disregarded. As long the notion of unintentional in the concept of Wu Wei, it is suffice. However, it is just a minor issue, but I thought it was worth to mention this subtlety.

Wei Wu Wei = For Wu Wei. It is analogous to "for the people" The idea is like this... Why are doing the natural things...??? It was for the sake of Wu Wei because we know the philosophy of Wu Wei. Since we know the concept of Wu Wei, we just do everything in accordance with Wu Wei. Actually, we are doing all FOR Wu Wei(Wei Wu Wei). I just realize this phrase is difficult for English speakers to accept. Just keep talking until we can come to a mutual understanding.

The weeds are the least concern for human. Wu Wei is a philosophy mostly applied to human life.

This is a vague question....

1. The initial action is to have it word for word, then go from there. Otherwise, one will be farther and farther away from the original meaning. 2. That may be true in some cases. The meaning between in the characters and words are so different. A slightly of in thinking due the cultural and language differences, it will send one ten thousand mile away. 3a. It requires both to "show" and "tell" from language to language for a better expression for comprehension. 3b. That was where the mistranslation begins. 4. This thread has been abandoned, it is a good place as any to discuss anything here. PS..... Our thinking are so different, I just cant just foresee that there is any merit for us to continue.

My interpretation of this statement... Was that intentional or was it FOR Wu Wei. Wu Wei = without (unnatural) action.

Indeed, you have a very good understanding of Wu Wei. PS..... I would leave "wei wu wei" and meditation out of this thread to avoid confusion for now....