ChiDragon

Henricks, Lines 9 - 11 He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires. If he can bring it about that those with knowledge simply do not dare to act, Then there is nothing that will not be in order. CD... 12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire, 13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts. 14. Trailing to a natural path, 15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled. 14. Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei, 15. Then, there is nothing that couldn't be handled (done, finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....) J Wu, Lines 12 - 15 In this way he will cause the people to remain without knowledge and without desire, and prevent the knowing ones from any ado. Practice Non-Ado, and everything will be in order. Wang, Lines 7 - 9 In order to guide people to the Wu-wisdom and Wu-desire. This keeps men of knowledge refrained from daring, and act only with Wu. Nothing is then unmanaged.

CD's translation... Chapter 3 1. Dejectedly soliciting intelligentsia, 2. Discourage people from striving. 3. Not to value hard to obtained goods, 4. Prevent people from being thieves. 5. Not being seen desirable, 6. People won't become perturbed. 7. With sagacious ruling, 8. Emptied one's heart, 9. Solidified one's belly, 10. Weaken one's volition, 11. Strengthen one's bone, 12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire, 13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts. 14. Trailing to a natural path, 15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

To run a government, it is impossible not to administer any rules. What LaoTze was suggesting "rule with Wu Wei", he simply meant administer decrees to a minimal and let the people be.

The intended purpose was to find out what Wu Wei was. Somehow, people are twisting the meaning around and we got lost again.....

Please read it first. You are defeating the purpose of this thread......

Hi, rene I know there are many paths to going from point A to point B; but the shortest distance between two points is a straight line....

Stosh... Wei wu wei means You are doing natural things to act in a fashion in accordance with wu wei? and the finally result of the wu wei process means is for the people.

These two are out of the question. wei wu wei means... 'The lack of action in this way effects the desired change'(Incorrect translation) wei wu wei means.... 'for the people' My original statement was analogous to but not equal to. "FOR Wu Wei" is analogous to "FOR the people" What I was trying to say is: I am building up the country was for the good of the people(FOR the people). I am doing all natural things for the concept of of Wu Wei(FOR Wu Wei).

I agree, but at the moment, we are trying to get the definition straight before we go into its application. Since applications are vary from case to case, therefore, I am only on a trail to investigate the pure aspect of the philosophy. Just for consistency and avoid distraction in the dialogs, I would like to keep the applications out for now.

Yes, I do agree that we may both benefit from our disagreements. Now, let me translate these two phrases. 14 為無為, wéi wú wéi, for wu wei Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei, 15 則無不治。 zé wú bù zhì。 Then, there is nothing that cannot be done(finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....)

If we are looking the Wu Wei and Yo Wu Wei, the thinking now is this: In the contrast, Yo Wei is intentional. Wu Wei is unintentional. In both case, naturalness has less significance then Wu Wei alone by itself. Another words, when only Wu Wei was addressed, "unnatural action" must be considered. When both Wu Wei and Yo Wei were compared, the unnaturalness may be disregarded. As long the notion of unintentional in the concept of Wu Wei, it is suffice. However, it is just a minor issue, but I thought it was worth to mention this subtlety.

Wei Wu Wei = For Wu Wei. It is analogous to "for the people" The idea is like this... Why are doing the natural things...??? It was for the sake of Wu Wei because we know the philosophy of Wu Wei. Since we know the concept of Wu Wei, we just do everything in accordance with Wu Wei. Actually, we are doing all FOR Wu Wei(Wei Wu Wei). I just realize this phrase is difficult for English speakers to accept. Just keep talking until we can come to a mutual understanding.

The weeds are the least concern for human. Wu Wei is a philosophy mostly applied to human life.

This is a vague question....

1. The initial action is to have it word for word, then go from there. Otherwise, one will be farther and farther away from the original meaning. 2. That may be true in some cases. The meaning between in the characters and words are so different. A slightly of in thinking due the cultural and language differences, it will send one ten thousand mile away. 3a. It requires both to "show" and "tell" from language to language for a better expression for comprehension. 3b. That was where the mistranslation begins. 4. This thread has been abandoned, it is a good place as any to discuss anything here. PS..... Our thinking are so different, I just cant just foresee that there is any merit for us to continue.

My interpretation of this statement... Was that intentional or was it FOR Wu Wei. Wu Wei = without (unnatural) action.

Indeed, you have a very good understanding of Wu Wei. PS..... I would leave "wei wu wei" and meditation out of this thread to avoid confusion for now....

No, it is the understanding of the Chinese Classic. That is the issue. Please remember, the Classic has no grammar, it is not like English. If one use the English sentence structure to interpret the Classic is on the wrong approach. Anyway, I do not wish to continue to engage in this kind of endless argument.

I don't know how do you justify your reasoning. The proper Chinese for "wei wu wei" is always meant "for Wu Wei". I meant always. If you are insisting to twist the meaning to fit your own taste, thus I do not have a good reason to continue with the invalid argument.

Hey you guys.... Why do you start a new thread for studying the Chinese characters.....???

Chapter 2 1. Everyone, on earth, knows beauty as beauty, 2. Then, saw ugliness. 3. Everyone knows kindness as kindness, 4. Then, saw evil. 5. Therefore, 6. Solid and space coexisted; 7. Difficulty and easiness mutually succeeded; 8. Long and short mutually formed; 9. High and low mutually encompassed; 10.Melodies and songs mutually harmonized; 11.Front and back mutually trailed; 12.Always the same. 13.Sage handles matters in a natural manner(Wu Wei). The reason I want to get a head start was very important. In order to interpret line 13, one must read the lines above it. Lines 1 and 3 are active; and lines 2 and 4 are passive but happening spontaneously as the result of lines 1 and 3 respectively. Also, lines 6 through 11, the dyad are mutually interacting with each other. LaoTze was introducing all this natural phenomena for his explanations in the future chapters. 14.Gives silent instructions(no instruction). 15.Let things be with no interference; 16.Grown without possession. 17.Sustain without domination. 18.Success without dwelling. 19.Because of not dwelling alone, 20.Merits do not vanish. Lines 14 through 18 are the samples given the clues to the reader, in bold, to show what Wu Wei was. Hence, one must consider these clues as definition for Wu Wei for the interpretation of the Tao Te Ching in the later chapters. PS.... Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course". This sound familiar.....???

Chapter 2 Relativity 1. 天下皆知美之為美， 2. 斯惡已； 3. 皆知善之為善， 4. 斯不善已。 5. 故， 6. 有無相生， 7. 難易相成， 8. 長短相形， 9. 高下相盈， 10.音聲相和， 11.前後相隨。 12.恒也。 13.是以聖人處無為之事， 14.行不言之教。 15.萬物作焉而不辭。 16.生而不有， 17.為而不恃， 18.功成而弗居。 19.夫唯弗居， 20.是以不去。 In Terse English 1. Everyone, on earth, knows beauty as beauty, 2. Then, saw ugliness. 3. Everyone knows kindness as kindness, 4. Then, saw evil. 5. Therefore, 6. Solid and space coexisted; 7. Difficulty and easiness mutually succeeded; 8. Long and short mutually formed; 9. High and low mutually encompassed; 10.Melodies and songs mutually harmonized; 11.Front and back mutually trailed; 12.Always the same. 13.Sage handles matters in a natural manner(Wu Wei). 14.Gives silent instructions. 15.Let things be with no interference; 16.Grow without possession. 17.Sustain without domination. 18.Success without dwelling. 19.Because of not dwelling alone, 20.Merits do not vanish. Line 13 of Chapter 2, Wu Wei is the first time it appears.

hmm........ "For the reason" vs "make the reason" as another way to say it in English.....???

I've already grokked its quale for 'Wu-wisdom'. It was just like it says, "no wisdom"......

有生於無 The visible(you) was engendered from the invisible(wu). Wu(無) is when Tao was being invisible. You(有) is when Tao was being visible.