ChiDragon

Joeblast.... I see you are throwing out the term "dantien" very loosely. Look, the OP only ask a simple question. Why do you want to confuse the hell out of him....???

Yes, dawei. FYI.... The Chinese Taoists use a set of esoteric language which is bot very easily to be understood by an ordinary person. The terms that they use are always related to nature. Some of them sounds very mythical, it takes someone to interpret them into the modern level for people to understand. This is what I mean by "mythical". Why do you always take things in a negative way...???

I am sorry that I gave you the impression that I don't do any of those practices...

I see the sunny side on the south of the hill; and the shady side on the north. I will attribute the sunny side as "YANG" and the shady side as "Yin".

What do you mean by "The dantien compresses, not the lungs".....??? The dantien compresses what.....??? I have never said that the lungs compress anything. What I had said was that when the abdomen contracts, then the diaphragm moves upward and compresses the lungs for helping to release the carbon dioxide. To my understanding, the diaphragm cannot be raised directly on demand. It can only be raised indirectly by the contraction of the abdomen; it can be lowered indirectly by the expansion of the abdomen. I believe these are the facts about the physical movements of both the abdomen and the lungs during breathing. If one chooses, the breathing process may be reversed. I don't see any complication or misunderstanding about that.

Please read my last statement of the above post.

Normal abdominal breathing Abdominal movement of breathing while laying down In reverse breathing, the inhalation and exhalation are opposite with respect to the position of the diaphragm.

If you are using the Taoist mythical explanations, it is OK but I will rest my case for now.....

In your OP, you have not mentioned about your asthma. You do have a serious breathing problem. First of all, one cannot breathe with the diaphragm, the diaphragm only moves with the abdominal breathing. Abdominal breathing is when you inhale, your abdomen is fully expanded, and fully contracted when exhaled. In your case, you cannot perform abdominal breathing due to your asthma condition. I had breathing problem before, I'd corrected the problem by practicing Tai Ji. Tai Ji is very good in correcting breathing problem. It is because the involvement with the slow movements which guide the breathing slowly in a progressive manner.

Those are the actual physical movements of the diaphragm, not by someone's experience. When the abdomen was indented, the diaphragm moves upward, the compression will take place against the lungs. PS.... Where is the insulting coming from. I don't understand....

Daniel Reid mentioned the three locks in his book: 1. The Anal Lock 2. The Abdominal Lock 3. The Neck Lock I did not see anything similar to the above quote in his book(1998).

FYI.... 1. Reverse breathing during inhalation, the diaphragm goes up. 2. Reverse breathing during exhalation, the diaphragm goes down. Note: The diaphragm moves spontaneously, accordingly, with the movements of the abdomen.

Deep meditation is like you are in a state of tranquility. You are sitting there but you felt like you are in a vacuum. Your mind is empty and think of nothing but nothing. At that moment, you are seem like nothing owns you and you own nothing. Your spirit(soul) is free from any external influence. Nothing will affect you and you will not affect anything, not even yourself. You are sitting there relaxing your mind and body. Yes, your breathing should be as natural as possible. In order to breathe slow, in a way, you are in control. However, you were told not to control your breathing which means you do not force your breathing down deep but only go as far as you can. Ideally, under normal breathing condition, you want to have your breath to go down to the abdomen. Most people have breathing problem which cannot breathe as deep. In order to correct the breathing problem, that is where Chi Kung comes in. Some people can only breathe down to the throat or chest. Practice Chi Kung will help you to breathe down to the abdomen. When abdominal breathing was accomplished, then you had made progress in your breathing with Chi Kung. Deep breathing means abdominal breathing.

You breathe as slow as you can and as deep as you can also. Breathe down to a point that you cannot go any deeper, then exhale as slow as you can. Repeat this breathing method all the time. As a novice, that's all you need to know for now...

I'd just read an update on the Jing, Chi, and Shen. The pre-parental qi was sustained by the post-parental qi. The purpose of practicing Chi Kung was to continuously to provide the universal natural Chi to the body for nourishing the pre-natal qi. Otherwise, the pre-natal qi will be diminished and the human body dies. BTW We are talking about three kinds of Qi here: 1. Pre-natal Qi: a primordial substance of the body structure. 2. Post-natal Qi: the function of item 1 and the energy within the body. 3. Universal Qi: The Chi that we breathe into our lungs. If one knows the nuance of the three, then one will have a thorough understanding about Chi Kung and TCM....

What ever it was called, it is bad for blood circulation on the legs...

I do agree that Tao is explainable but with difficulty because Tao comes in many forms. However, it is still ineffable. Yes, let's see how many chapters that Lao Tze took to define and explain how to discern Tao.

Yes, that can be one of the Taoist mythical explanations...

In regarding to reincarnation The Taoist religion philosophy does not believe in reincarnation. They believed in that the soul leaves the body soared to heaven, after death, and become an immortal. The Buddhist believes that the soul leaves the body after death and goes to another body of a newborn. The body of the newborn can be an animal, insect or human. It depends on the behavior of the original life of the dead. If the dead was a bad person when alive, the soul may have gone into the body of an animal as punishment. This is what karma was all about in the beliefs of the Chinese Buddhism anyway.

To answer the title... Yes, Tao and Chi are ineffable. So are the three Taoist treasures: 精, 氣, 神(Jing, Chi and shen)

Modern Interpretation Yan Hui asked Zhongni(Confucius): "This guy Meng Sun Chai, his mother died, cried without a drop of tear; shows no grief in his heart, he was not sad at the funeral neither. In this three areas, he did not express any sorrow, but he was good at the funeral arrangements and well-known throughout the State of Lu. Perhaps that there was a situation with no such fact but only his name was being fictitious...??? Yan Hui really felt that was strange. Confucius said: "Meng Sun Chai's method in handling the funeral arrangements was really perfect, it was way exceeded those who know how the make the funeral arrangements. People always hoped to arrange a funeral in a simple manner but they cannot have it accomplished but Meng Sun Chai can. Meng Sun Chai won't ask people what they are living for; also he'd never bothered to find out what people die for. He doesn't know how to run toward life, and also he doesn't know how to approach death. He follows the natural process of change then changed into something which what he suppose to be. Then, he waits for those unexpected changes to appear. Even tough there was a change apparently, then, how do I know it was not changing...??? Although there was no change, then, how do I that the change had been taken place already...!!! However, only you and I are those who were dreaming without knowing the state of awaken. Those who were dead had their bodies ruined but their souls were not damaged. It seems like that the dwell place of the soul was changing but the soul was not really dead. Only Meng Sun Chai was awaken, when people cry, then he cries with them too, that was the reason why he guard the tombs for his ancestors. Although during a conversation, I borrowed my physical body and address myself as 'I', then how do I know that the body I am addressing was really mine...??? Furthermore, in your dreams, you had turned into a bird and spreading the wings soared into the blue skies. In addition, in another dream, you had turned into a fish and submerged deep into the water. I don't know in our conversation today, it was spoken by somebody who was awake or by somebody who was dreaming. I has this blissful feeling within my heart but the sound of my laughter hesitated to come out. To show my joyfulness with the laughter but not quick enough for my disposal and drainage. Peacefully, I followed the natural movements and had forgotten the change about death. Hence, I have entered the tranquil and vacuous naturalness to become integrated completely as one.

Original Classic Text 原文】 颜回问仲尼曰：“孟孙才①，其母死，哭泣无涕②，中心不戚③，居丧不哀。无是三者④，以善处丧蓋鲁国⑤。固有无其实而得其名者乎⑥？回壹怪之⑦。” 仲尼曰：“夫孟孙氏尽之矣，进于知矣⑧。唯简之而不得，夫已有所简矣⑨。孟孙氏不知所以生，不知所以死；不知就先⑩，不知就后；若化为物(11)，以待其所不知之化已乎！且方将化，恶知不化哉？方将不化，恶知已化哉？吾特与汝，其梦未始觉者邪！且彼有骇形而无损心(12)，有旦宅而无情死(13)。孟孙氏特觉，人哭亦哭，是自其所以乃(14)。且也相与吾之耳矣，庸讵知吾所谓吾之乎？且汝梦为鸟而厉乎天(15)，梦为鱼而没于渊。不识今之言者，其觉者乎，其梦者乎？造适不及笑(16)，献笑不及排(17)，安排而去化(18)，乃入于寥天一(19)。” Glossary 【注释】 ①孟孙才：人名，复姓孟孙。 ②涕：泪水。 ③中心：心中。戚：悲痛。 ④三者：指上述“哭泣不涕”、“中心不戚”、“居丧不哀”的三种表现。 ⑤蓋：覆。 ⑥固：竟，难道。 ⑦壹：实在，确实。 ⑧进：胜，超过。 ⑨夫：这里代指孟孙才。 ⑩就：趋近，追求。先：这里实指“生”，与下句“后”字实指“死”相应。 (11)若：顺。“若化”即顺应自然变化。 (12)骇形：指人死之后形体必有惊人的改变。心：精神，“损心”指情绪悲哀损伤心神。 (13)旦：日新，朝夕改变的意思。宅：这里喻指精神的寓所，即人的躯体。情死：真实的死亡。 (14) 乃：通作“尔”，如此的意思。 (15)厉：通作“戾”，至、往的意思，这里实指鸟的飞翔。 (16)造：达到。适：快意。 (17)献：发。一说“献”通作“戏”，“献笑”亦即戏笑。排：排解，消泄。 (18)安排：安于自然的推移。去化：忘却死亡的变化。 (19)寥：寂寥，虚空。 Modern Interpretation 【译文】 颜回请教孔子说：“孟孙才这个人，他的母亲死了，哭泣时没有一滴眼泪，心中不觉悲伤，居丧时也不哀痛。这三个方面没有任何悲哀的表现，可是却因善于处理丧事而名扬鲁国。难道真会有无其实而有其名的情况吗？颜回实在觉得奇怪。”孔子说：“孟孙才处理丧事的作法确实是尽善尽美了，大大超过了懂得丧葬礼仪的人。人们总希望从简治丧却不能办到，而孟孙才已经做到从简办理丧事了。孟孙才不过问人因为什么而生，也不去探寻人因为什么而死；不知道趋赴生，也不知道靠拢死；他顺应自然的变化而成为他应该变成的物类，以期待那些自己所不知晓的变化！况且即将出现变化，怎么知道不变化呢？即将不再发生变化，又怎么知道已经有了变化呢！只有我和你呀，才是做梦似的没有一点儿觉醒的人呢！那些死去了的人惊扰了自身形骸却无损于他们的精神，犹如精神的寓所朝夕改变却并不是精神的真正死亡。唯独孟孙才觉醒，人们哭他也跟着哭，这就是他如此居丧的原因。况且人们交往总借助形骸而称述自我，又怎么知道我所称述的躯体一定就是我呢？而且你梦中变成鸟便振翅直飞蓝天，你梦中变成鱼便摇尾潜入深渊。不知道今天我们说话的人，算是醒悟的人呢，还是做梦的人呢？心境快适却来不及笑出声音，表露快意发出笑声却来不及排解和消泄，安于自然的推移而且忘却死亡的变化，于是就进入到寂寥虚空的自然而浑然成为一体。”

The second part of Chapter 6 was compared with all the stars in describing a "natural person" gradually rendering into 'Tao'. Only a 'natural person" can sense 'Tao', and 'Tao' is "natural(wu wei) and formless" but also in eternally existed. In order to sense and observe 'Tao', it must be 'formless' and 'selfless'. These two paragraphs are the main theme of the text. There must be a "natural person", in order, to have true knowledge. What was considered to be a "natural person"...??? The "natural person" in the ancient, does not depend on the people nor lean on an individual; does not vaingloriously to glorify his own success by dwelling on top of others; also, does not plan on small things. For this kind of person, one will not regret if an opportunity was passed by; and he will not be smug if caught up with a fortune. For this kind of person, he will not tremble even he climbed in high places; he doesn't get wet when he's in the water; he doesn't feel the heat when entered into the fire. Those who can be like so are only those who have wisdom and able go through the passage of the Great Tao. A 'natural person' in the ancient, does not dream asleep, there was no worry when he has awaken; he does not ask for good taste when he eats food; his breath was deep when he breathes. A "natural person" depends the heel of the foot when he breathes, but the ordinary people were depending on the throat. When subdued by others, his speech were become stuttered. Those who were extravagant and with high hopes; their innate wisdom are very shallow. A "natural person" in the ancient, does not know how to praise life nor how to censure death; not happy when was born; also not decline when entering death; left with carefree; come as one pleases. Not forgetting where one came from; also not willing to find out where one came from; accepting any situations with joyfulness; forgetting about life and death as if one was returned to the initial natural state. Thus this is called not using the one's wisdom within the heart to ruin the Great Tao; also it was not using any resultant factor from the human action to assist 'naturalness'. This is called the "natural person". Like this kind of person, within the heart, one forgets all what was around oneself. One's face was calm and peaceful, his face was innocent and serious; it's cold like the winter, it's warm like the spring. The joyfulness or indignation without any warning seems like the four changing seasons. There was nothing which is comparable with any external matter and no one can explore the true meaning of the spiritual world. Hence, the ancient sages used force to destroy a hostile state without loosing the heart of those people; given benefit and grace throughout the times, but not given nepotism to anyone. One who was in favor of obtaining materialistic leisure is not a sage; one having nepotism in mind was not considered to be 'benevolent'; one who waits for the moment of opportunity to go into action is not virtuous; one who cannot see a conflict of interests may not be considered as a gentleman; one who handles affairs for fame and lost the inherent quality of oneself is not a scholar; one who sacrifice his life which doesn't match his own character is not the one that can be a servant to the people. An ancient "natural person", one's body expression was towering but not restrainted; it seems insufficient but, yet, not to inherit; one's attitude was clam and natural, standing above all but not persistent nor stubborn, one's mind was opened, broad, vacuous but not ostentatious; happy and cheerful seems like extra joyful, each move seems like it was done unwillingly. One's facial expression was friendly causing people to approach him willingly, associated with people virtuously and toleration and let people to felt like to be depended on; one's bearing was broad like the whole wide world. One who was bold and inhibited and had never been restricted by anything, broad vision and recondite seems like liking to enclosed oneself, inattentive seems like one has forgotten what to say. One treated the criminal law as the fundamental principle, and the ritual as one's assistance, using all the knowledge in hand to wait for the moment of opportune, using the virtue of Tao to comply with the natural principles. It seems like saying that the people with legs are able to climb the hills, then they thought that they are the one who was diligent in walking. Therefore, people said that what they were fond of are completely as one, people were not fond of is also completely as one. Those things that were the same are integrated, those things that were not the same are also integrated. Those things that were integrated are in the same category with 'naturalness'. Those things that were not integrated are in the same category with humans. Naturalness and humans are not possible to be opposite with each other but mutually transcended, those who were possessed with this kind of knowledge are considered to be a "natural person".

There are so much talk about "meditation" on the forum. Has anyone given a thought to Zazen(打坐)...??? What is it...???

The second part of Chapter 6 was compared with all the stars in describing a "natural person" gradually rendering into 'Tao'. Only a 'natural person" can sense 'Tao', and 'Tao' is "natural(wu wei) and formless" but also in eternally existed. In order to sense and observe 'Tao', it must be 'formless' and 'selfless'. These two paragraphs are the main theme of the text. There must be a "natural person", in order, to have true knowledge. What was considered to be a "natural person"...??? The "natural person" in the ancient, does not depend on the people nor lean on an individual; does not vaingloriously to glorify his own success by dwelling on top of others; also, does not plan on small things. For this kind of person, one will not regret if an opportunity was passed by; and he will not be smug if caught up with a fortune. For this kind of person, he will not tremble even he climbed in high places; he doesn't get wet when he's in the water; he doesn't feel the heat when entered into the fire. Those who can be like so are only those who have wisdom and able go through the passage of the Great Tao. A 'natural person' in the ancient, does not dream asleep, there was no worry when he has awaken; he does not ask for good taste when he eats food; his breath was deep when he breathes. A "natural person" depends the heel of the foot when he breathes, but the ordinary people were depending on the throat. When subdued by others, his speech were become stuttered. Those who were extravagant and with high hopes; their innate wisdom are very shallow. A "natural person" in the ancient, does not know how to praise life nor how to censure death; not happy when was born; also not decline when entering death; left with carefree; come as one pleases. Not forgetting where one came from; also not willing to find out where one came from; accepting any situations with joyfulness; forgetting about life and death as if one was returned to the initial natural state. Thus this is called not using the one's wisdom within the heart to ruin the Great Tao; also it was not using any resultant factor from the human action to assist 'naturalness'. This is called the "natural person". Like this kind of person, within the heart, one forgets all what was around oneself. One's face was calm and peaceful, his face was innocent and serious; it's cold like the winter, it's warm like the spring. The joyfulness or indignation without any warning seems like the four changing seasons. There was nothing which is comparable with any external matter and no one can explore the true meaning of the spiritual world. Edited to add: Hence, the ancient sages used force to destroy a hostile state without loosing the heart of those people; given benefit and grace throughout the times, but not given nepotism to anyone. One who was in favor of obtaining materialistic leisure is not a sage; one having nepotism in mind was not considered to be 'benevolent'; one who waits for the moment of opportunity to go into action is not virtuous; one who cannot see a conflict of interests may not be considered as a gentleman; one who handles affairs for fame and lost the inherent quality of oneself is not a scholar; one who sacrifice his life which doesn't match his own character is not the one that can be a servant to the people.